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Front End Rebuild - Improvements #1333844
11/11/12 12:04 PM
11/11/12 12:04 PM
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Cambridge, Ontario, Canada
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So I am embarking on a long ovedue front end rebuild on my 74 Cuda (360 auto).

This is a street car, and I am looking to improve the ride and handeling. I am not looking to kill any cones or thrash it on a road course, just feel like I have some control going trhough corners.

My plan is to replace all the hard parts (duh) and use energy suspension poly bushings. I have sway bars for and aft.

Upgrade the tie rods to 11/16 units with a solid adjusters and fast ratio pitman arm (PST has a good deal on a kit).

I will likely leave the T-bars stock for now.

How about the strut bars, should I go adjustable, HD units or good stock units (which I have)? Not sure I understadn the benefit of adjustable unitis.

Any other suggestions????

Thanks,

Jason

Re: Front End Rebuild - Improvements [Re: CUDAJAS] #1333845
11/11/12 02:38 PM
11/11/12 02:38 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 701
Northern California
lilcuda Offline
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For a street car, you don't want poly bushings for the lower control arms. They aren't necessary and transfer more road noise. If I were you, I'd stick with the stock strut rods, unless you are determined to run the poly lower bushings. Firm Feel has a page explaining why you need adjustable strut rods:

http://www.firmfeel.com/adjstrut.htm


'67 is an abbreviation of 1967
67' is an abbreviation of 67 feet
They are not interchangeable.
Re: Front End Rebuild - Improvements [Re: CUDAJAS] #1333846
11/11/12 02:47 PM
11/11/12 02:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,465
So Cal
autoxcuda Offline
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Run Moog 7103 offset rubber Upper Control Arm Bushings. Install them to get more caster.

You could also shorten the rear poly strut rob bushing and sleeve 3/16" to get more caster too.

Then just re use your existing strut rods. No need for adjustable ones at that point. And no need for HD ones.

I'd go rubber LCA bushing on a car like that too. So only poly would be sway bar stuff and strut rods bushings.

Re: Front End Rebuild - Improvements [Re: CUDAJAS] #1333847
11/11/12 03:55 PM
11/11/12 03:55 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
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jcc Offline
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Quote:

So I am embarking on a long ovedue front end rebuild on my 74 Cuda (360 auto).

This is a street car, and I am looking to improve the ride and handeling. I am not looking to kill any cones or thrash it on a road course, just feel like I have some control going trhough corners.

My plan is to replace all the hard parts (duh) and use energy suspension poly bushings. I have sway bars for and aft.

Upgrade the tie rods to 11/16 units with a solid adjusters and fast ratio pitman arm (PST has a good deal on a kit).

I will likely leave the T-bars stock for now.

How about the strut bars, should I go adjustable, HD units or good stock units (which I have)? Not sure I understadn the benefit of adjustable unitis.

Any other suggestions????

Thanks,

Jason





"improve the ride and handeling. I am not looking to kill any cones or thrash it on a road course, just feel like I have some control going trhough corners."

1. Forget anything poly, it has little to offer in your case and will fail much sooner then rubber.
2. Forget anything adjustable
3. Forget 11/16"TR
4. Upgrade your tires at next tire replacement interval
5. Review recent other stockish upgrade thread for other ideas
6. Dial in .5 neg camber if you can accept some increase in tire wear.
7. Tighten up your seat belt
8. You will have some control with the above.

Last edited by jcc; 11/11/12 03:59 PM.

Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: Front End Rebuild - Improvements [Re: jcc] #1333848
11/11/12 04:06 PM
11/11/12 04:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,465
So Cal
autoxcuda Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

So I am embarking on a long ovedue front end rebuild on my 74 Cuda (360 auto).

This is a street car, and I am looking to improve the ride and handeling. I am not looking to kill any cones or thrash it on a road course, just feel like I have some control going trhough corners.

My plan is to replace all the hard parts (duh) and use energy suspension poly bushings. I have sway bars for and aft.

Upgrade the tie rods to 11/16 units with a solid adjusters and fast ratio pitman arm (PST has a good deal on a kit).

I will likely leave the T-bars stock for now.

How about the strut bars, should I go adjustable, HD units or good stock units (which I have)? Not sure I understadn the benefit of adjustable unitis.

Any other suggestions????

Thanks,

Jason





"improve the ride and handeling. I am not looking to kill any cones or thrash it on a road course, just feel like I have some control going trhough corners."

1. Forget anything poly, it has little to offer in your case and will fail much sooner then rubber.
2. Forget anything adjustable
3. Forget 11/16"TR
4. Upgrade your tires at next tire replacement interval
5. Review recent other stockish upgrade thread for other ideas
6. Dial in .5 neg camber if you can accept some increase in tire wear.
7. Tighten up your seat belt
8. You will have some control with the above.





With all that but I'd put in the Moog offset bushings to get 2-3 pos caster and dial in some neg camber with your radial tires. The poly sway bar stuff will increase it's stiffness a little.

Re: Front End Rebuild - Improvements [Re: autoxcuda] #1333849
11/11/12 05:55 PM
11/11/12 05:55 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger Offline
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As far as transferring road noise goes poly strut rod bushings are another no no and increase a bumps shock value. Swaybar bushings and links in poly would be a nice upgrade over rubber though.


Mopar to the bone!!!
Re: Front End Rebuild - Improvements [Re: 72Swinger] #1333850
11/12/12 10:23 PM
11/12/12 10:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,072
Cambridge, Ontario, Canada
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well hell, now you guys have me rethinking my plan of attack!!

I thought that the offset bushings were only needed to correct issues, and were not likely requried in a full rebuild. I am guessing I am wrong here and I can not get the right alignment specs otherwise??

I alos got the impression that poly everywhere was the way to go...guess not.

So...now I am confused.

Re: Front End Rebuild - Improvements [Re: CUDAJAS] #1333851
11/12/12 10:49 PM
11/12/12 10:49 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,323
NY NY
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340duster340 Offline
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NY NY
don't be confused.....all good advice so far and since it seems like a pleasure driven car you really can't mess it up unless you buy junk parts.

you'll be fine with all moog replacement parts, go for the problem solver uca's bushings they will give you more adjustment. keep it stock and simple for what you are going to use it for its more than adequate.


1966 Dart GT ...down to only 1 mopar for the first time in 15 years!
Re: Front End Rebuild - Improvements [Re: CUDAJAS] #1333852
11/13/12 01:20 AM
11/13/12 01:20 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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jcc Offline
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Quote:

I alos got the impression that poly everywhere was the way to go...guess not.

So...now I am confused.




Sounds to me like you have been paying attention


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: Front End Rebuild - Improvements [Re: CUDAJAS] #1333853
11/13/12 02:24 AM
11/13/12 02:24 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch Online content
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NW Chicago suburban area
What are your current and future intentions with rims and tires? This could become costly... those 17x8, 17x9 Mopar Rallye or Road rims being sold through YearOne have the correct backspacing so you could safely run 275-40-17 hi-perf tires without any fender problems (maybe slightly tucking the lips). Remember that the shorter sidewal of a 50-45-40 tire will increase ride harshness, but also allow quicker steering response. (For the "street" on my 340 Challenger, I run 245-60-15, 275-60-15 BFG T/As, and a very stiff competition autocross suspension (1.24 TBs and 225-lb rear fiberglass leafs), but the TALLER sidewalls allow extra cushion... really not bad at all for the street/highway... still, always try to avoid any potholes in the road!).

I'd strongly suggest you eventually upgrade your torsion bars as the stock units are pathetically weak. I know you just want a mildly better handling car, but the TBs would be one of the best improvements you'd make... even just going to something like a 1.10-1.12 (Firm-Feel) may sound very stiff, but it really isn't... and you'd be amazed at the improvement. Get some better shocks, like Bilsteins (not KYBs!).

Any larger front sway bar than your current stock bar will make a noticable change, but then also change the rear bar, too.

As others have said, the poly bushings will, possibly, make some occasional noise, and they do gradually wear away, but that depends on how hard you drive... would likley take a few years for the swaybar endlinks to need replacement; control arm and leaf spring bushings are for more serious driving (ie: competition).

A change in front driver seat with more lateral support would make it more pleasurable... low cost options exist (200-300), but you do get what you pay for... if you decide, I suggest sitting in some different seats to find the one that "fits you" fairly well... also a smaller diamter steering wheel. The fast-ratio pitman/idler arms will make a noticable difference. your steering alignment can be improved with the before-said Moog problem-solvers (installed reversed to get more caster... and the camber will also come).. or else, you could get some simple FF tubular upper control arms (or simlar others) and they'll give you that allowance for more alignment that you want.

You could spend lots more $$, just a matter of how much and how soon you want to spend it.


Mopar Mitch "Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers! Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
Re: Front End Rebuild - Improvements [Re: Mopar Mitch] #1333854
11/14/12 05:43 PM
11/14/12 05:43 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 936
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OLD318 Offline
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My

1) Rebuild with MOOG front-end parts -no poly
2) Use the offset MOOG UCA bushings
- get as much postive caster as you can
3) Upgrade to the next size Torsion Bar - Stock bars are lame
4) Upgrade your tires
5) Upgrade your shocks
6) Upgrade to a firm-feel stage 2 or 3 gearbox if using power steering.

Re: Front End Rebuild - Improvements [Re: Mopar Mitch] #1333855
11/14/12 09:39 PM
11/14/12 09:39 PM
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Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: Front End Rebuild - Improvements [Re: jcc] #1333856
11/15/12 03:17 AM
11/15/12 03:17 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch Online content
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As for thick TBs, such as my 1.24s, I don't think anyone currently offers them that I'm aware of... maybe Firm Feel would make them? I bought mine from California Suspension (later called California Moparts) back around 1986... and had progressed up to them from smaller TBs. I think I've seen 1.22 recently offered/advertised within the last cpl years somewhere... can't recall from where. due to the hex size at 1.25", the 1.24" are the thickest that can fit on most cars (A,B,E bodies for sure; C bodies I think have larger openings).


Mopar Mitch "Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers! Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
Re: Front End Rebuild - Improvements [Re: Mopar Mitch] #1333857
11/15/12 01:48 PM
11/15/12 01:48 PM
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Pikes Peak Country
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Its my understanding tham Firm Feel could make them, but they don't routinly offer them.

C bodies use a 1.375 hex. I'm thinking I might keep my eyes peeled for one in the local yards and try snagging its anchors and control arms. Knowing the FF could make a C body hex on a B/E body length bar could get you up around the 500# wheel rate.

Re: Front End Rebuild - Improvements [Re: TC@HP2] #1333858
11/15/12 07:00 PM
11/15/12 07:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch Online content
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The 1.24 TBs are rated at 425 lbs/inch, but when compared to coil spring I know the stiffness rate is a little higher... maybe ~550?


Mopar Mitch "Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers! Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
Re: Front End Rebuild - Improvements [Re: Mopar Mitch] #1333859
11/16/12 12:05 AM
11/16/12 12:05 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,072
Cambridge, Ontario, Canada
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Quote:

What are your current and future intentions with rims and tires? This could become costly... those 17x8, 17x9 Mopar Rallye or Road rims being sold through YearOne have the correct backspacing so you could safely run 275-40-17 hi-perf tires without any fender problems (maybe slightly tucking the lips). Remember that the shorter sidewal of a 50-45-40 tire will increase ride harshness, but also allow quicker steering response. (For the "street" on my 340 Challenger, I run 245-60-15, 275-60-15 BFG T/As, and a very stiff competition autocross suspension (1.24 TBs and 225-lb rear fiberglass leafs), but the TALLER sidewalls allow extra cushion... really not bad at all for the street/highway... still, always try to avoid any potholes in the road!).

I'd strongly suggest you eventually upgrade your torsion bars as the stock units are pathetically weak. I know you just want a mildly better handling car, but the TBs would be one of the best improvements you'd make... even just going to something like a 1.10-1.12 (Firm-Feel) may sound very stiff, but it really isn't... and you'd be amazed at the improvement. Get some better shocks, like Bilsteins (not KYBs!).

Any larger front sway bar than your current stock bar will make a noticable change, but then also change the rear bar, too.

As others have said, the poly bushings will, possibly, make some occasional noise, and they do gradually wear away, but that depends on how hard you drive... would likley take a few years for the swaybar endlinks to need replacement; control arm and leaf spring bushings are for more serious driving (ie: competition).

A change in front driver seat with more lateral support would make it more pleasurable... low cost options exist (200-300), but you do get what you pay for... if you decide, I suggest sitting in some different seats to find the one that "fits you" fairly well... also a smaller diamter steering wheel. The fast-ratio pitman/idler arms will make a noticable difference. your steering alignment can be improved with the before-said Moog problem-solvers (installed reversed to get more caster... and the camber will also come).. or else, you could get some simple FF tubular upper control arms (or simlar others) and they'll give you that allowance for more alignment that you want.

You could spend lots more $$, just a matter of how much and how soon you want to spend it.




Hey Mitch, thanks for the input.

Long term plans are wide open, but certainly include an upgrade in wheels and tires...someday.

In reality, I am 5 years away from that.

Certainly upgrading the T-bars and shocks...hopefully this summer, if not earlier.

I think I will go with poly bushings (moog offsets UCA bushings). I certainly want to be able to drive it hard, and have it not feel, well mushy.

All of the hard parts need to be replaced, they all seem to be original (I have had the car since 91).

I am also looking to switch to power steering over the winter, so I am stil thiking about the high ratio pitman and idler. I figure they are easily changed out.

I like the idea of upgradign the seats...that is my wife's biggest complaint. I have looked into various options and may look at something.

Thanks agaon for the input...I look forward to providing updates and feedback in the spring.

Jason

Re: Front End Rebuild - Improvements [Re: CUDAJAS] #1333860
12/16/12 12:53 PM
12/16/12 12:53 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,072
Cambridge, Ontario, Canada
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Thanks for the input guys.



Based on the input I recived here an a few other sites, and my own research, here is what I am going to do.



First and formost, I am replacing all hard parts, ball joints, tie rod ends etc.



I am going to replace all the bushings (including sway bar links and bushings) with Energy Suspension poly bushings with the exception of the UCA bushngs, I am going with the Moog Offsets.



Given the tierods, pitman and idler arm are all origional, I am going to go with the PST sterring linkage kit and replace all of them (11/16th tierods, sloid adjusters, and high ratio pitman / idler).



I am also going to go with Firm Feel greasable LCA pins.



I am also going to fab up some all LCA reenforcement plates and possibly some subframe connectors.



I am also droping the rear end way down, new poly leafspring bushings, and lower the front down a bit.



Here is a pck of what I am starting with...









Jason

Re: Front End Rebuild - Improvements [Re: CUDAJAS] #1333861
12/17/12 01:00 PM
12/17/12 01:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch Online content
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NW Chicago suburban area
As for the Moog Offset UCA bushings, there is a company that makes them (offset) in urethane (this info has been on Moparts before... I think they come from Australia???... I'm pretty sure Mopar Action's Richard Ehrenberg exposed them to us). You might consider them for a slight better peformance whereas they won't have deflection such as the rubber Moog bushings have (but it won't be noticable unless you'd be in serious competition and wanting that very last additional performance edge).


Mopar Mitch "Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers! Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
Re: Front End Rebuild - Improvements [Re: Mopar Mitch] #1333862
12/17/12 03:13 PM
12/17/12 03:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,072
Cambridge, Ontario, Canada
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Quote:

As for the Moog Offset UCA bushings, there is a company that makes them (offset) in urethane (this info has been on Moparts before... I think they come from Australia???... I'm pretty sure Mopar Action's Richard Ehrenberg exposed them to us). You might consider them for a slight better peformance whereas they won't have deflection such as the rubber Moog bushings have (but it won't be noticable unless you'd be in serious competition and wanting that very last additional performance edge).




Yeah, I saw Rick E's post. I checked out the company that sells them, and they do not list the bushings anymore.

Sooo, I figure I will live with the moogs for now.

Jason

Re: Front End Rebuild - Improvements [Re: CUDAJAS] #1333863
12/18/12 06:05 PM
12/18/12 06:05 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 106
Australia
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