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Steering Advise #1216018 04/15/12 09:08 AM 04/15/12 09:08 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 3,831 N.E. Ohio 6bblFLASH OP master
6bblFLASH OP master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 3,831 N.E. Ohio	I have a stock chassied 68` Plymouth b-body,manual steering 4.5in wide rims on front and 215/75 Radials,rear 8in rim 295/55 MT radials. It is a real handfull if you apply any power. It will run high 11`s an makes alot of torq. Its not wheelspin its more like you turn the wheel and nothing happens. I will go so far as to say I feel its un-safe to play with on the street. Steering feels VERY heavy and un-responsive. All hardware is tight,toe1/8th in. caster unknown. On straight roads tracks true,no problem but plows in corners like it has a spool. I`ve tried 3-steering boxes and aligned it multiple times ,no improvement. I had a 69` GTX for a long time just before this 68` and it had the identical tire wheel package and all the same equipment except 4sp.. It handled well for a large stock heavy car. You could hang the tail out power-shifting down the street with one hand on the wheel and never worried about it getting away from you. This car is an auto,and I would`nt dare let the tail get loose, I doubt I could control it. Where do I start? 7165440-68`LastTimeonLake11`001.JPG (33 downloads) 70` Cuda`,440 6BBL Jerico,Dana 4.56 Still on 93 Pump Gas 9.87 @ 136/1.31-60ft.`09 Mopar Nationals PASSON PERFORMANCE "Stick-Shift" Champ! 2013 StickShift Challenge Winner@ Mopar Nationals!

Re: Steering Advise [Re: 6bblFLASH] #1216019 04/15/12 09:31 AM 04/15/12 09:31 AM
Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,664 IN A ahy master
ahy master A Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,664 IN	They can be set up to handle very nicely. A little more info on your stqarting point would be helpful in getting specific suggestions on how to get there. Engine, T bar size, sway bar (?), shocks, any chassis mods like frame connectors would be a good start.

Re: Steering Advise [Re: ahy] #1216020 04/15/12 09:44 AM 04/15/12 09:44 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 3,831 N.E. Ohio 6bblFLASH OP master
6bblFLASH OP master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 3,831 N.E. Ohio	Quote: They can be set up to handle very nicely. A little more info on your stqarting point would be helpful in getting specific suggestions on how to get there. Engine, T bar size, sway bar (?), shocks, any chassis mods like frame connectors would be a good start. Ok,I`ll go measure the bars. Shocks-- blue ones probaly K-Mart LOL 440 with 174 B&M Supercharger. Yes has sway-bar,need to measure that too. Chassis STOCK no-mods. 68,000 never wrecked or rusted original paint and metal. 70` Cuda`,440 6BBL Jerico,Dana 4.56 Still on 93 Pump Gas 9.87 @ 136/1.31-60ft.`09 Mopar Nationals PASSON PERFORMANCE "Stick-Shift" Champ! 2013 StickShift Challenge Winner@ Mopar Nationals!

Re: Steering Advise [Re: 6bblFLASH] #1216021 04/15/12 11:56 AM 04/15/12 11:56 AM
Joined: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,302 Nebraska 72Swinger master
72Swinger master Joined: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,302 Nebraska	That sounds like a fun car. Are you wanting to stay with that tire and wheel combo? The shocks are probably Monroes if they are dark blue. Sounds kinda like the steering is loose or sloppy? Mopar to the bone!!!

Re: Steering Advise [Re: 72Swinger] #1216022 04/15/12 12:08 PM 04/15/12 12:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 3,831 N.E. Ohio 6bblFLASH OP master
6bblFLASH OP master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 3,831 N.E. Ohio	Torsion bars .910 Sway bar .940 Nothing loose that I`ve found. 70` Cuda`,440 6BBL Jerico,Dana 4.56 Still on 93 Pump Gas 9.87 @ 136/1.31-60ft.`09 Mopar Nationals PASSON PERFORMANCE "Stick-Shift" Champ! 2013 StickShift Challenge Winner@ Mopar Nationals!

Re: Steering Advise [Re: 6bblFLASH] #1216023 04/15/12 12:36 PM 04/15/12 12:36 PM
Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,664 IN A ahy master
ahy master A Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,664 IN	Bigger T bars and front sway bar would really help handle the weight of the BB + supercharger. A 1 1/8" sway bar, a set of 1" T bars and better shocks would make a huge difference. I used Firm Feel stuff and can recommend it... good quality and helpful advice. Also, frame connectors recommended - not only to stiffen things up to make a good foundation for the better suspension pieces but also to help keep your strong engine from cracking the unibody. On shocks, lots of (strong) opinions. I am happy with KYB's and 1" bars but no doubt the more expensive Bilstiens are better. For the alignment, some negative camber and positive caster halp a lot. I set mine up with .75 deg negative camber and 5 deg positive caster using tubular upper control arms. With stock parts, a degree or two positive caster and maybe .5 degree negative camber is as much as you can get. Still better than OE settings. PS: If you want to do this in phases, the bigger sway bar and alignment alone should make a noticable improvement. Then shocks, then T bars. Last edited by ahy; 04/15/12 02:47 PM.

Re: Steering Advise [Re: ahy] #1216024 04/15/12 12:40 PM 04/15/12 12:40 PM
Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 14,889 up yours Supercuda About to go away
Supercuda About to go away Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 14,889 up yours	4.5" rims cannot have any decent sized tire on them. That is part of the problem too. Remember, traction is limited by the weakest link and I'll bet your tire choice is one of them. They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.

Re: Steering Advise [Re: Supercuda] #1216025 04/15/12 05:16 PM 04/15/12 05:16 PM
Joined: Dec 2010 Posts: 12,375 SoCal MuuMuu101 I got lucky at Woodward!
MuuMuu101 I got lucky at Woodward! Joined: Dec 2010 Posts: 12,375 SoCal	Quote: 4.5" rims cannot have any decent sized tire on them. That is part of the problem too. Remember, traction is limited by the weakest link and I'll bet your tire choice is one of them. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. You can have a big sway bar and T-bar, but if the tires can't grip the road, what good will turning do?

Re: Steering Advise [Re: 6bblFLASH] #1216026 04/15/12 08:35 PM 04/15/12 08:35 PM
Joined: Jan 2006 Posts: 797 WA P pro451bee super stock
pro451bee super stock P Joined: Jan 2006 Posts: 797 WA	Id look at all the rubber in suspention ,leaf spring eye is a good place for poly bushings and made a huge improvement on my Bee for laying down the power . Many small things can add up to poor handling.Frame ties are also a big help .

Re: Steering Advise [Re: Supercuda] #1216027 04/15/12 09:24 PM 04/15/12 09:24 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 3,831 N.E. Ohio 6bblFLASH OP master
6bblFLASH OP master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 3,831 N.E. Ohio	Quote: 4.5" rims cannot have any decent sized tire on them. That is part of the problem too. Remember, traction is limited by the weakest link and I'll bet your tire choice is one of them. Ok thanks,but I think I either asked the question wrong or I`m getting advise for a differnt goal. I`m not trying to get it handle better than"normal" for a 68`. Right now it is much worse. Like I said the GTX had all the same stuff and drove great. The steering is heavy and unrepsonsive. 70` Cuda`,440 6BBL Jerico,Dana 4.56 Still on 93 Pump Gas 9.87 @ 136/1.31-60ft.`09 Mopar Nationals PASSON PERFORMANCE "Stick-Shift" Champ! 2013 StickShift Challenge Winner@ Mopar Nationals!

Re: Steering Advise [Re: pro451bee] #1216028 04/15/12 09:26 PM 04/15/12 09:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 3,831 N.E. Ohio 6bblFLASH OP master
6bblFLASH OP master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 3,831 N.E. Ohio	Quote: Id look at all the rubber in suspention ,leaf spring eye is a good place for poly bushings and made a huge improvement on my Bee for laying down the power . Many small things can add up to poor handling.Frame ties are also a big help . Thats a good point I am going to look at the rear springs and such too,broken leaf? 70` Cuda`,440 6BBL Jerico,Dana 4.56 Still on 93 Pump Gas 9.87 @ 136/1.31-60ft.`09 Mopar Nationals PASSON PERFORMANCE "Stick-Shift" Champ! 2013 StickShift Challenge Winner@ Mopar Nationals!

Re: Steering Advise [Re: 6bblFLASH] #1216029 04/15/12 11:05 PM 04/15/12 11:05 PM
Joined: Feb 2010 Posts: 1,645 Phila. Pa. Mattax top fuel
Mattax top fuel Joined: Feb 2010 Posts: 1,645 Phila. Pa.	Lets see if I get this right: Everything is the same, or should be. Alignment unknown. Parts I'm not clear on: This car plows when entering a turn? Launches straight or does the back want to come around? My initial thoughts are: Check Caster and Camber. Check ride hieght too when you get a chance. A bit of negative camber will help initial bite, too much caster can make the wheel feel heavy. Front wheels are small (relative to the overall situation ) - some understeer would be expected. However you claim same tires and rims were OK before, so this isn't the difference. Yup this is going to be a tough one to diagnose over the 'net.

Re: Steering Advise [Re: Mattax] #1216030 04/15/12 11:38 PM 04/15/12 11:38 PM
Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 22,696 Bitopia J jcc If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
jcc If you can't dazzle em with diamonds.. J Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 22,696 Bitopia	Quote: Front wheels are small (relative to the overall situation ) - some understeer would be expected. However you claim same tires and rims were OK before, so this isn't the difference. Yup this is going to be a tough one to diagnose over the 'net. "small (relative to the overall situation)" 215/75 & 295/55 Front engine big block b body? That's got to be the understatement of the week. Sorry, but to be so blunt, I am highly suspicious of the OP statement that this combination worked previously. I can't believe it would ever work. Something does not add up. Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.

Re: Steering Advise [Re: jcc] #1216031 04/16/12 01:40 AM 04/16/12 01:40 AM
Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 173 Milano, Italia FK5 member
FK5 member Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 173 Milano, Italia	215s aren't that small. Plenty of muscle cars had small tires. Even though this is the cornering forum he sounds like he is only looking for okay old school muscle car handling. Not pro touring. Stock suspension with 68K? Has it been gone through or is it original? Maybe something is worn out? Caster unknown? Doesn't too much caster result in slow steering?

Re: Steering Advise [Re: FK5] #1216032 04/16/12 06:18 AM 04/16/12 06:18 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 3,831 N.E. Ohio 6bblFLASH OP master
6bblFLASH OP master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 3,831 N.E. Ohio	OK,Thanks for all the input. I see I don`t have enough info/facts about what I have to answer all the questions properly. Soooo, I need to do some more homework and make sure I have what I think I have. There may be an issue I`m totally unaware of. If I had never own one like this I would be less unhappy,but again the GTX was nice to drive. This car is going to end up in a field. 70` Cuda`,440 6BBL Jerico,Dana 4.56 Still on 93 Pump Gas 9.87 @ 136/1.31-60ft.`09 Mopar Nationals PASSON PERFORMANCE "Stick-Shift" Champ! 2013 StickShift Challenge Winner@ Mopar Nationals!

Re: Steering Advise [Re: FK5] #1216033 04/16/12 08:51 AM 04/16/12 08:51 AM
Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 22,696 Bitopia J jcc If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
jcc If you can't dazzle em with diamonds.. J Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 22,696 Bitopia	Quote: 215s aren't that small. Plenty of muscle cars had small tires. Even though this is the cornering forum he sounds like he is only looking for okay old school muscle car handling. Not pro touring. Sorry, I thought old school muscle car handling is NOT what was being sought. Reg "pro touring", I will usually pass up those threads. And decent handling usually matches tire contact patch size relative to weight F/R balance as a starting point. Unless the OP has a 100 gal rear fuel tank, he has currently old school muscle car handling, that I thought was part of his problem, based on the "that" size front tire RELATIVE to his rear tires. Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.

Re: Steering Advise [Re: 6bblFLASH] #1216034 04/16/12 12:03 PM 04/16/12 12:03 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 5,387 Pikes Peak Country T TC@HP2 master
TC@HP2 master T Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 5,387 Pikes Peak Country	Quote: Like I said the GTX had all the same stuff and drove great. The steering is heavy and unrepsonsive. This combination, while not a great handling set up by any means, has a feel that the owners feels is worse than an other similar set up. So we aren't trying to make it great, simply get it to a point where it is the same as another similar set up. I agree with the original post, all these same parts set up the same way should feel identical to the previous car that had this set up. This, I think, is the key to it all - Heavy and unresponsive steering. There is something to the combination of pieces that make this car feel this way compared to the previous car. Heavy would make me lean towards a differing alignment spec. More postive caster will do this compared to the stock, negative caster specification. Unresponsive sounds like a worn out component somewhere.

Re: Steering Advise [Re: 6bblFLASH] #1216035 04/16/12 01:51 PM 04/16/12 01:51 PM
Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,357 central Florida VL21 pro stock
VL21 pro stock Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,357 central Florida	Just wondering... was the GTX a manual steer car? Was this a manual steer car always? If not what is the box off from? Six cylinder cars interchange but IIRC use bushings not bearings, could be binding. Have you had the box apart? Has the adjusting screw been turned way in? Right off the top of my head (don't mind the reflection) I am wondering if the problem isn't in the box. Another thing, even old time alignment specs were different for manual steer/power steer, neither one optimal for todays tires. Jack it up, weight on lower arms, check for binding in steering linkage. With your tire combo it won't be carving any canyons, but shouldn't be terrible in normal/fun stuff. (Sideways... ) It takes gasoline to interest me.

Re: Steering Advise [Re: VL21] #1216036 05/06/12 09:13 AM 05/06/12 09:13 AM
Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 279 pgh pa C captaindodge enthusiast
captaindodge enthusiast C Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 279 pgh pa	Can anyone verify that a 69 GTX would have power steering as std equipment?

Re: Steering Advise [Re: captaindodge] #1216037 05/06/12 09:53 AM 05/06/12 09:53 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 3,831 N.E. Ohio 6bblFLASH OP master
6bblFLASH OP master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 3,831 N.E. Ohio	Don` t know about "power steering as std. equipment" on a 69` GTX. But I did make some major progress on the 68` in question. 1st. steering was 1/2 turn off,meaning had 1/2 turn more to the right then to the left. So adjusted tie-rods and got that even. 2nd. caster was set at max possible,don`t know what it was but I adjusted it myself and that helped ALOT. 3rd. set toe @ 1/8th IN. Drives nice,steering light at speed,does`nt try to put you in the ditch w/power anymore. Thanks for all the ideas and advise 7194421-DSC00015.JPG (14 downloads) 70` Cuda`,440 6BBL Jerico,Dana 4.56 Still on 93 Pump Gas 9.87 @ 136/1.31-60ft.`09 Mopar Nationals PASSON PERFORMANCE "Stick-Shift" Champ! 2013 StickShift Challenge Winner@ Mopar Nationals!

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