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Re: torq boxes and subframes
[Re: lokalik]
#954445
03/20/11 12:58 PM
03/20/11 12:58 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
ScottSmith_Harms
Mr Wizzard
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Mr Wizzard
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
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Each is designed to perform a different function, if you want the benifits of both, you need both. The frame connectors help control torsional body "twist". Torque boxes are like corner blocks in a picture frame and help to keep the forward spring hangers from tearing out of the floor, forward torque boxes help to keep the cowl and firewall structure corners stable. The rear most spring hangers (on most cars) can benifit from the triangular gussets that aid in keeping the rear leaf spring mounts from twisting. Also don't forget the added plates that get welded to the bulheads inside the torque boxes as well, they help prevent the leaf spring hanger bolts from distorting the sheetmetal they pass through. 
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Re: torq boxes and subframes
[Re: lokalik]
#954451
03/20/11 10:16 PM
03/20/11 10:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,394
Pikes Peak Country
TC@HP2
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,394
Pikes Peak Country
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I'll disagree and say that torque boxes were indeed design to provide torsional rigidity. This is why they were in Hemi, 6 pak, and convertibles, but not more pedestrian rides.
The torque boxes tie the subframe structure into the rocker structure, which is a very large box running the length of the passenger compartment. These were much cheaper to make and easier for the factory to install. They both perform the same function but perhaps not to the same degree. However, I have never heard of anyone who has measured torsion deflection between the two methods to say which is superior.
You also have to figure that there are several style of sub-frame connectors these day as well, and some may provide greater or lesser degrees of support than the others.
In any case, yes, either is a worthwile addition to any car. Stiffening up the chassis will allow the suspension to work better in providing better compliance or traction, while minimizing flexing, which can be heard as rattles and squeaks, and can potentialy damage body panels. If you want to see how well they work, jack up a corner of your car high until teh tire is about a foot off the ground, then try opening the door on that side. Try it again after the install, and compare the difference.
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Re: torq boxes and subframes
[Re: TC@HP2]
#954452
03/20/11 10:52 PM
03/20/11 10:52 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
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Quote:
In any case, yes, either is a worthwile addition to any car. Stiffening up the chassis will allow the suspension to work better in providing better compliance or traction, while minimizing flexing, which can be heard as rattles and squeaks, and can potentialy damage body panels. If you want to see how well they work, jack up a corner of your car high until teh tire is about a foot off the ground, then try opening the door on that side. Try it again after the install, and compare the difference.
After installing a set of home made out of 2x3" square tubing frame connectors, the difference was night and day when I tried opening a door while up on a jack.
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Re: torq boxes and subframes
[Re: TC@HP2]
#954453
03/20/11 11:25 PM
03/20/11 11:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
ScottSmith_Harms
Mr Wizzard
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Mr Wizzard
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
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Quote:
The torque boxes tie the subframe structure into the rocker structure, which is a very large box running the length of the passenger compartment. These were much cheaper to make and easier for the factory to install. They both perform the same function but perhaps not to the same degree. However, I have never heard of anyone who has measured torsion deflection between the two methods to say which is superior.
They certainly don't hurt the rocker structure any but without continuous frame rails they can't offer much in the way of torsional rigidity. The forward leaf spring mounting areas are very weak spots in the floor design, basically just some overlapping sheet metal formed into a structure that is unsupported from multiple angles with a few spot welds holding it together. This is where the leaf spring bolts place a huge shock load, especially in a high HP application. The fact that in the case of Hemi cars a solid steel plate was welded to BOTH sides of this leaf spring mounting bulkhead says allot, but the Torque boxes say more, they are the last piece of the puzzle to box in the bulkhead to the rocker area so that the forward leaf spring hanger bulkhead sheet metal does not deflect and crack under load.
Mopar was counting on the rocker structure, the roof, and the stamped steel floorpan that spans the gap between the forward and aft frame rails to keep the car torsionally solid....In stock form it usually worked, otherwise, not so well.
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Re: torq boxes and subframes
[Re: ScottSmith_Harms]
#954455
03/21/11 12:07 PM
03/21/11 12:07 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,049
MD
RTSE4ME
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,049
MD
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Quote:
The forward leaf spring mounting areas are very weak spots in the floor design, basically just some overlapping sheet metal formed into a structure that is unsupported from multiple angles with a few spot welds holding it together.
The Hotchkis frame connectors bolt to the leaf spring front mounting spot. I wonder how much that helps strengthening that area?
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Re: torq boxes and subframes
[Re: RTSE4ME]
#954459
03/29/11 03:24 AM
03/29/11 03:24 AM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 203
Sante Fe Springs, CA
Hotchkis
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 203
Sante Fe Springs, CA
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Quote:
Quote:
The forward leaf spring mounting areas are very weak spots in the floor design, basically just some overlapping sheet metal formed into a structure that is unsupported from multiple angles with a few spot welds holding it together.
The Hotchkis frame connectors bolt to the leaf spring front mounting spot. I wonder how much that helps strengthening that area?
RTSE4ME,
Our subframe connectors strengthen the front leaf spring mount area by tying it to the front frame. Under hard acceleration, the leaf springs want to turn into an S-Shape and pull the front mount of the leaf spring towards the rear of the car. The factory torque boxes help reduce unwanted flex by tying this area to the rocker panel. If you install our subframe connectors on a car with torque boxes you have to trim the torque box to install them, but for increased strength you can weld the connector to the torque box where it passes through.
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Re: torq boxes and subframes
[Re: Stanton]
#954463
03/29/11 02:58 PM
03/29/11 02:58 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,394
Pikes Peak Country
TC@HP2
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,394
Pikes Peak Country
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If your car is complete, then putting them in while the car is on its wheels ( or on stands under the suspension) will keep all your panel gaps consistent. Will it lock in any bad body alignment or "sag", yes, but your car is already living with that sag and is likey set up, aligned, and comfortable with it.
If you car was all apart, then you might want to go the extra step to ensure everything is level, square, and plumb. However, achieving this with a 40 year old car usually requires "adjusting" a panel or two, jacking weight around to bend the car in to place, or using a frame machine to reverse bad wedge, accident damage, or sloppy factory tolerances.
Now, even of you go to the lengths above to square things up, are you a driver with the skill to sufficiently utilize the corrected uni-body? Probably not. Most of us like to think we are, and if you can tell the difference in the feel of your car between a full tank of gas vs half a tank, then maybe you are that good. The rest of us simply benefit from and enjoy the increased rigidity of the structure and the resulting loss of squeaks, rattles, and groans.
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