Re: 1977 440 vs 413 swap
[Re: TrueTripleX]
#951327
03/15/11 05:40 PM
03/15/11 05:40 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
Striving for excellence
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Striving for excellence
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
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All 440 engines had the capability to make high levels of power. The reason that the 72 and later engines were less powerful had more to do with reducing emissions because the feds dictated it. The compression ratios went from around 10 to one down to the high 7 range in some cases. Add to that the switch to SINGLE exhaust systems, Cataylic converters in 1975 and later, milder camshafts and closed element air cleaners.... Its no wonder these once mighty engines barely performed at all.
During a rebuild, all of the factors that choked out the "smog" motors can be replaced. High compression pistons, better flowing heads, hotter camshaft....No reason to shy away from a 72 and newer 440 that has been rebuilt as long as the right parts have been used. I have a 74 440 block in the Charger. I threw out the heads, crank, pistons and rods and added a longer stroke crank, forged pistons, aluminum heads and now the motor that WAS factory rated at 285 horsepower is now near 500.
My suggestion would be to go with the 440. MORE inches mean more power. Regarding the power ratings of the smog era engines, by 1977 the California ratings were different than Federal, usually CA being lower. The Police models had 7.8 compression and 220 HP. The civilian models had 8.2 and were rated at 210. I dont know why the lower compression engine had more power. MAYBE the police cars had dual exhaust?
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Re: 1977 440 vs 413 swap
[Re: Kern Dog]
#951328
03/15/11 09:16 PM
03/15/11 09:16 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
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Quote:
The Police models had 7.8 compression and 220 HP. The civilian models had 8.2 and were rated at 210. I dont know why the lower compression engine had more power. MAYBE the police cars had dual exhaust?
All 440's in those years would have had the same 7.8:1 compression pistons. By the late 70's the 440 was at its lowest with the regular 440 putting out barely 200hp and the 440HP not even making 250.
From 72 on there were no real changes to the 440. There were some cylinder head revisions, but with the exception of the 60's max wedge heads, all factory 440 heads flowed about the same in stock form. In 72/73 IIRC the regular 440 was rated at 230hp and the 440HP(which is what police cars got) was rated at 280hp. The 440HP was just a regular 440 with a HP cam, valve springs, recalibrated carb, hp exhaust manifolds.
As the next couple years went by you had other crap thrown in like egr, in 74/75 the pre-smog 6000 series thermoquad was replaced by the 9000 series smogger thermoquads, then in 76 you throw in cat converters and in 77 you get the lean burn carb/ignition system choking the regular 440 down to right around 200hp and the 440HP dropped to 240hp or somewhere around there.
Good news is you can strip all that crap off a 77 440. Replace the pistons with some high compression pieces and you can have a real 10:1 compression, something only matched by the 1970 440 6-pack, all others were more like 9:1 in real life.
If replacing the pistons is not possible, you can still build a smogger to perform decently, just make sure you pick a reasonable cam, torq converter and rear gears to match the package.
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Re: 1977 440 vs 413 swap
[Re: Kern Dog]
#951331
03/16/11 02:58 AM
03/16/11 02:58 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
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Quote:
I got my numbers from a Chilton book. If I am wrong, blame them.
I was going from memory from my fsm. My numbers may be off but not by far enough to make any difference in what he will do.
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Re: 1977 440 vs 413 swap
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#951332
03/16/11 07:58 AM
03/16/11 07:58 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
Swears too much
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Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
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Keep in mind that these are ratings you are basing this decision on... ratings that really dont mean much. The 76 Caddy 500 was rated around 200HP as well... it made around 300 in reality. Net vs gross, you've seen these arguments before i'm sure.
My Charger now has a running 440 pulled from an original 76 C-body. Aside from a cam swap somewhere along the line (VERY mild, but non-stock, you can only hear it sorta/almost lope when its really cold) its bone stock. Put in the same car with the same bolt-ons, it makes more power than both the 70 440 i got the car with, and the 67 440 i swapped in later. It makes a LOT more power than the 70 did, and i haven't even tuned it to the same degree as the previous two yet.
Really, unless its a 70 or earlier 440, its a smogged-out VERY low compression engine. They're all pretty much the same, if we're talking about the long block... unless for some insane reason you're installing it with all the 76 C-body crap... emissions. lean burn, single exhaust, etc.
Personally, I would use the 413 though, its got some closed chamber heads and a steel crank that'll come in handy if you rebuild it later, that and from what i've seen the older engines just dont come as gummed up as the later smog engines for just drop in and go type swaps. Emissions crpa on old engines in my opinion was such a complete and utter failure... you had a 440 built in 69 that burned a bit worse, but moved the car, compared to a 440 built in 78 that supposedly burned a little cleaner, yet required twice the throttle to move the car... Hmmm...
Find out how the 440 was rebuilt first... maybe you'll get lucky and the guy that did it actually knew what he was doing...???
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Re: 1977 440 vs 413 swap
[Re: Pale_Roader]
#951333
03/16/11 12:58 PM
03/16/11 12:58 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067
Irving, TX
feets
Senior Management
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Senior Management
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067
Irving, TX
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Price the pistons for a 413. They're harder to find than 440 pistons.
If his 413 is running, bump the 440 to what he wants it to be and swap them out.
Be aware that the 413 is a forged crank engine and the 440 is a cast crank engine.
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
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Re: 1977 440 vs 413 swap
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#951336
03/16/11 08:29 PM
03/16/11 08:29 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,060
Ball Ground GA
TrueTripleX
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,060
Ball Ground GA
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Quote:
"a fresh rebuilt 1977 440 motor from a machine shop" what does that mean? What pistons were used, cam...and so on. Has it been bored? Just because the stock 77 had 7.8:1 doesn't mean his does now, unless the re-used the pistons. The Speed Pro cast replacement pistons that were used in an a 70 440 I had made it about 9:1 w/ stock 906 heads. He should really see how far down in the hole they are. What about heads? closed vs open champer can also make a difference. FWIW I'd use a fresh lo-comp 440 over a old used up 413.
Just spoke with machine shop. He said it should be a strong motor but couldn't remember if he put 8.8 or 9.6 compression pistons in. It does have the 906 heads. One more question, since I am using the 1962 tranny, will I have to be concerned with the balancing issues with the torque convertor or others.
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Re: 1977 440 vs 413 swap
[Re: TrueTripleX]
#951337
03/16/11 08:39 PM
03/16/11 08:39 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,420
UPPER MICHIGAN, MARQUETTE COUN...
NITROUSN
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,420
UPPER MICHIGAN, MARQUETTE COUN...
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Quote:
Just spoke with machine shop. He said it should be a strong motor but couldn't remember if he put 8.8 or 9.6 compression pistons in.
You would think that a competent shop would have a numbered list of parts used in the rebuild. 
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Re: 1977 440 vs 413 swap
[Re: TrueTripleX]
#951338
03/17/11 09:49 AM
03/17/11 09:49 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
Quote:
"a fresh rebuilt 1977 440 motor from a machine shop" what does that mean? What pistons were used, cam...and so on. Has it been bored? Just because the stock 77 had 7.8:1 doesn't mean his does now, unless the re-used the pistons. The Speed Pro cast replacement pistons that were used in an a 70 440 I had made it about 9:1 w/ stock 906 heads. He should really see how far down in the hole they are. What about heads? closed vs open champer can also make a difference. FWIW I'd use a fresh lo-comp 440 over a old used up 413.
Just spoke with machine shop. He said it should be a strong motor but couldn't remember if he put 8.8 or 9.6 compression pistons in. It does have the 906 heads. One more question, since I am using the 1962 tranny, will I have to be concerned with the balancing issues with the torque convertor or others.
The late modle 440 will be externaly balanced so y ou will need the converter to be weighted. MP sells the kit w/ template...unless for some reason they balanced the cast crank and rotating assembly. FWIW I ran 12.90's w/ those 8.8:1 pistons in a 3850lb car with unported 906 heads. It will run. If it's 9.6:1 even better
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Re: 1977 440 vs 413 swap
[Re: TrueTripleX]
#951339
03/17/11 06:17 PM
03/17/11 06:17 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533
Indiana
Fury Fan
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533
Indiana
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Quote:
One more question, since I am using the 1962 tranny, will I have to be concerned with the balancing issues with the torque convertor or others.
IIRC, the early 60s engines had a different crank snout, or flange, or pilot for the torque converter or something. I don't know the specifics or when they changed, but it's something that you'll need to research and verify.
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