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Distributor upgrade question #930914
02/17/11 09:36 AM
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rockerbob Offline OP
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Got a very mild 318 bracket car (235 hp rear wheels). Has a junk yard 318 Fury stock electronic distributor in it now. Car runs good. Just looking at all the performance distributors. Any ideas as to how much power/et can be gained from an upgrade. Looking at the Mopar Performance one and also the MSD Pro Billit one. Would a tenth be reasonable? Car does have an MDS 6AL box installed.


2005 Dakota 4X4 3.7 2004 Rumble Bee 5.7 1978 Diplomat 318 1969 Satellite 318 "bracket racer" 1966 Barracuda (in progress ) 1964 Dodge 330 (future race project) 1962 Belvedere (HUM????)
Re: Distributor upgrade question [Re: rockerbob] #930915
02/17/11 09:49 AM
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Are you wanting to lower your ET or to get more consistency (or both)


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Re: Distributor upgrade question [Re: RapidRobert] #930916
02/17/11 08:01 PM
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Quote:

Are you wanting to lower your ET or to get more consistency (or both)




Both. Car is allready consistant. Want to keep that & chip away on the et slip.


2005 Dakota 4X4 3.7 2004 Rumble Bee 5.7 1978 Diplomat 318 1969 Satellite 318 "bracket racer" 1966 Barracuda (in progress ) 1964 Dodge 330 (future race project) 1962 Belvedere (HUM????)
Re: Distributor upgrade question [Re: rockerbob] #930917
02/18/11 01:17 AM
02/18/11 01:17 AM
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vac adv? (I'm assuming not) #1 is if the bushing play is good which it generally is. #2 got an adv curve or locked out? If no vac adv could drill a vertical hole thru both plates and lock them solid (use a spacer on your mini bolt between the 2 plates) so it is not tilted as you tighten it, You're goal is to elim all play/keep everything stable. As you know check reluctor gap & want .006-8 on the tightest tooth (they can vary slightly) & better yet mill it so each one is the same. Get the rotor phasing dead on. try extending the rotor outer tip w solder as a large gap is wasted spark enrgy. 2 functions: trigger the current/proper adv curve & want no slop anywhere

Last edited by RapidRobert; 02/18/11 01:32 AM.

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Re: Distributor upgrade question [Re: RapidRobert] #930918
02/18/11 07:23 AM
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Quote:

vac adv? (I'm assuming not) #1 is if the bushing play is good which it generally is. #2 got an adv curve or locked out? If no vac adv could drill a vertical hole thru both plates and lock them solid (use a spacer on your mini bolt between the 2 plates) so it is not tilted as you tighten it, You're goal is to elim all play/keep everything stable. As you know check reluctor gap & want .006-8 on the tightest tooth (they can vary slightly) & better yet mill it so each one is the same. Get the rotor phasing dead on. try extending the rotor outer tip w solder as a large gap is wasted spark enrgy. 2 functions: trigger the current/proper adv curve & want no slop anywhere





Yes the car currenty still has the stock vac. advance canister hoked up from the junk yard distrbutor. I'm pretty sure is an emmision curve sine it came from a 76 318 Fury. Not sure what rotor phasing is? Heard of it, but dont know what that is or how t check/correct it.


2005 Dakota 4X4 3.7 2004 Rumble Bee 5.7 1978 Diplomat 318 1969 Satellite 318 "bracket racer" 1966 Barracuda (in progress ) 1964 Dodge 330 (future race project) 1962 Belvedere (HUM????)
Re: Distributor upgrade question [Re: rockerbob] #930919
02/18/11 10:08 PM
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I would unhook the vac adv & shorten the slots for 35 total. Not sure what you would want the initial set at and what springs you would want as a full time 1/4 miler is out of my experience (a streeter you'd use the vac gauge method for the initial then the total to 35 (no vac adv hooked up or if used you unplug it & get 35 then replug it in) and springs that would keep you just under the pinging point @WOT on your hottest/driest day up thru the gears) and the initial would be finalized then the total then the springs. drill a 1/2" hole in the flat top of your dist cap about halfway between the center terminal and #1 terminal and in your driveway shine your timing light straight down on it to freeze it like what a strobe light does on a dance floor w the eng speed high enough to where the springs are all the way advanced & see if the rotor tip is dead on or near dead on to the underside of the #1 cap terminal (phasing). 1st narrow the tip to about 1/16" & extend the tip w solder to ~.030" or so & if (at speed) it is too far clockwise then w a vacuum pump crank in vac until the rotor shifts CCW enough till it is lined up & note the amt of vac needed on the gauge then shut it down/dissassemble the dist & vertically drill/pin the 2 plates w that amt of vac applied 1st to lock the phasing in that position. You want a dist w minimal play/check & correct phasing/disable/plug vac adv/finalize initial/shorten for 35 total/springs/equalize reluctor teeth/set gap at .008/extend and narrow rotor tip/toss the thick spring w the long loop/may need to add a spring to replace the heavy one you tossed. If the phasing needs to b shifted CW might exp w going to the other roll pin hole,

Last edited by RapidRobert; 02/18/11 11:50 PM.

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Re: Distributor upgrade question [Re: RapidRobert] #930920
02/19/11 09:53 PM
02/19/11 09:53 PM
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Quote:

I would unhook the vac adv & shorten the slots for 35 total. Not sure what you would want the initial set at and what springs you would want as a full time 1/4 miler is out of my experience (a streeter you'd use the vac gauge method for the initial then the total to 35 (no vac adv hooked up or if used you unplug it & get 35 then replug it in) and springs that would keep you just under the pinging point @WOT on your hottest/driest day up thru the gears) and the initial would be finalized then the total then the springs. drill a 1/2" hole in the flat top of your dist cap about halfway between the center terminal and #1 terminal and in your driveway shine your timing light straight down on it to freeze it like what a strobe light does on a dance floor w the eng speed high enough to where the springs are all the way advanced & see if the rotor tip is dead on or near dead on to the underside of the #1 cap terminal (phasing). 1st narrow the tip to about 1/16" & extend the tip w solder to ~.030" or so & if (at speed) it is too far clockwise then w a vacuum pump crank in vac until the rotor shifts CCW enough till it is lined up & note the amt of vac needed on the gauge then shut it down/dissassemble the dist & vertically drill/pin the 2 plates w that amt of vac applied 1st to lock the phasing in that position. You want a dist w minimal play/check & correct phasing/disable/plug vac adv/finalize initial/shorten for 35 total/springs/equalize reluctor teeth/set gap at .008/extend and narrow rotor tip/toss the thick spring w the long loop/may need to add a spring to replace the heavy one you tossed. If the phasing needs to b shifted CW might exp w going to the other roll pin hole,





Robert the distributor in my car is a junker & has many miles on it. It has a lot of play. The last time I checked it which was several years ago. One of the reasons I want to replace it. I think in my case it would be eaiser/better/cheaper to just get a new one. Just not sure if I should go with the MSD or the Mopar one & would I actually see any performance improvement.


2005 Dakota 4X4 3.7 2004 Rumble Bee 5.7 1978 Diplomat 318 1969 Satellite 318 "bracket racer" 1966 Barracuda (in progress ) 1964 Dodge 330 (future race project) 1962 Belvedere (HUM????)
Re: Distributor upgrade question [Re: rockerbob] #930921
02/19/11 10:15 PM
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Quote:

Just not sure if I should go with the MSD or the Mopar one & would I actually see any performance improvement.


You'd see an improvement from the stock curve if you maxed out the initial/total/springs/elim the vac adv (strip only) but not alot of consistency improv unless the side play is way out of whack which on an elec dist usually it is OK. The pickup/reluctor is just an on//off device that triggers the ECU and alot of play will adversely affect it from triggering the ECU at the exact same point for each cyl as it wobbles. Not sure if MP or MSD would be the best way to go.


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Re: Distributor upgrade question [Re: RapidRobert] #930922
02/20/11 12:29 AM
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Quote:

Quote:

Just not sure if I should go with the MSD or the Mopar one & would I actually see any performance improvement.


You'd see an improvement from the stock curve if you maxed out the initial/total/springs/elim the vac adv (strip only) but not alot of consistency improv unless the side play is way out of whack which on an elec dist usually it is OK. The pickup/reluctor is just an on//off device that triggers the ECU and alot of play will adversely affect it from triggering the ECU at the exact same point for each cyl as it wobbles. Not sure if MP or MSD would be the best way to go.





The Mopar unit is cheaper, but still has a vac. advance. And I think Mancini Racing sells a distributor with a hi-performance curve for an even better price. The MSD pro-billet would allow me to eliminate my orange box alltogether. And the springs are eaiser to swap out. And is mechanical advance. However I would also have to change plug wires to work with the MSD cap. Starts to get pricey and would need to see some et improvement to justify that.


2005 Dakota 4X4 3.7 2004 Rumble Bee 5.7 1978 Diplomat 318 1969 Satellite 318 "bracket racer" 1966 Barracuda (in progress ) 1964 Dodge 330 (future race project) 1962 Belvedere (HUM????)
Re: Distributor upgrade question [Re: rockerbob] #930923
02/20/11 01:38 AM
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I know you are leaning toward new but w money tight I'd sure consider another JY one that's low(er) mileage w tight bushings/shaft. You'll get the hang of undoing the center clip & since you are not running vac adv you can adj phasing & pin everything solid for cheap


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Re: Distributor upgrade question [Re: RapidRobert] #930924
02/20/11 09:02 AM
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Quote:

I know you are leaning toward new but w money tight I'd sure consider another JY one that's low(er) mileage w tight bushings/shaft. You'll get the hang of undoing the center clip & since you are not running vac adv you can adj phasing & pin everything solid for cheap




So it sounds like you dont think buying the MSD or any other new one would benefit me much. That reworking a stock one would require a little labor, but would work just as well. Am I right Robert? If so then I actually do have another stock electronic distributor I could disasemble & try the things you suggest. I also have a set of the MP light weight springs. Plus I have Rick Erenbergers (Mopar Action)tech CD where he shows how to do all of that. I just assumed the MSD would still outperform any stock unit.


2005 Dakota 4X4 3.7 2004 Rumble Bee 5.7 1978 Diplomat 318 1969 Satellite 318 "bracket racer" 1966 Barracuda (in progress ) 1964 Dodge 330 (future race project) 1962 Belvedere (HUM????)
Re: Distributor upgrade question [Re: rockerbob] #930925
02/20/11 10:45 AM
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Quote:

So it sounds like you dont think buying the MSD or any other new one would benefit me much. That reworking a stock one would require a little labor, but would work just as well. I just assumed the MSD would still outperform any stock unit.


Correct, I dont think you'll get near your moneys' worth that it would be better spent elsewhere. The torx screws on the MSD give much easier adjustability but once you get the hang of getting the clip in/out on the OE unit it's not bad. Almost forgot, on the reworking drive the roll pin out on the bottom shaft/remove collar/shim & add 1/2" ID shims till you get ~.010" end play


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Re: Distributor upgrade question [Re: RapidRobert] #930926
02/20/11 11:27 AM
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Quote:

Quote:

So it sounds like you dont think buying the MSD or any other new one would benefit me much. That reworking a stock one would require a little labor, but would work just as well. I just assumed the MSD would still outperform any stock unit.


Correct, I dont think you'll get near your moneys' worth that it would be better spent elsewhere. The torx screws on the MSD give much easier adjustability but once you get the hang of getting the clip in/out on the OE unit it's not bad. Almost forgot, on the reworking drive the roll pin out on the bottom shaft/remove collar/shim & add 1/2" ID shims till you get ~.010" end play




So just to be clear. If I rework a stock distributor I can leave the vac. canister off? And I will pick up a noticable et improvement?


2005 Dakota 4X4 3.7 2004 Rumble Bee 5.7 1978 Diplomat 318 1969 Satellite 318 "bracket racer" 1966 Barracuda (in progress ) 1964 Dodge 330 (future race project) 1962 Belvedere (HUM????)
Re: Distributor upgrade question [Re: rockerbob] #930927
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Quote:

So just to be clear. If I rework a stock distributor I can leave the vac. canister off? And I will pick up a noticable et improvement?


(1)yes, get your phasing dead on then pin the 2 plates solid (2) w a dragger vac adv function gets confused w the vac changes. 35 total is a tried & true amt for a SB, unless it's a stroker or other special app which MAY vary which is not the case here.


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Re: Distributor upgrade question [Re: RapidRobert] #930928
02/20/11 11:50 AM
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I'm pretty sure I have my initial set at 6 before. I tried to set it higher, but it would idle too high & get a bit too choppy. Even when I tried to addjust the carb idle. However this was when I first set the car up & I have learned a lot since then. I really think I have hidden horse power in there if I can figure out how to get it out. You have been a big help Robert deffanately got my gears turning. Smoke comming out of my ears


2005 Dakota 4X4 3.7 2004 Rumble Bee 5.7 1978 Diplomat 318 1969 Satellite 318 "bracket racer" 1966 Barracuda (in progress ) 1964 Dodge 330 (future race project) 1962 Belvedere (HUM????)
Re: Distributor upgrade question [Re: rockerbob] #930929
02/20/11 11:52 AM
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You made my day Bro


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Re: Distributor upgrade question [Re: RapidRobert] #930930
02/20/11 12:03 PM
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Re: Distributor upgrade question [Re: RapidRobert] #930931
02/20/11 12:18 PM
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I think Robert has really answered your questions here. Let me second that there is very little if anything to be gained in the ignition system, especially the distributor.
1. You already have a multispark CD which which covers misfires etc that come with a racy cam.
2. Locking down the vacuum advance plate and phasing may help consistancy - depends on how accurate the repeatable the current dizzy is.
3. Advance curve may or may not be close to ideal for your setup. Changing the total mechanical may help your quarter mile MPH and ET. You don't need a fancy distributor for that. Removing the vacuum advance on a fairly stock engine will almost definately hurt mpg. It also will likley hurt part throttle response unless a lighter primary spring is used.

The newer MP distributors are based on a Mallory design. (You can do a search and see the tech archoves for details). They are slightly easier to take apart and modify but parts are not interchangable with older MP/DC or stock distributors. Again I agree with Robert. For your money, stay with a stock distributor, JY or parts store.

Save the old one. You may find inside your 'new' distributor a different set of springs, or advance plate or vacuum canister. These may or may not work better than your current one. Obviously if there is side play in the current shaft - the new one will better in that respect. So you may end up one or more of those components to the new distributor. Like Robert posted, most of the time a hopped up small block will like the advance shortened. It depends on the idle characteristics of the cam with the CR etc of the engine. Long duration, high overlap cams like 16-18 degrees initial. Your cam may not be that bad, but it still may want more than stock.

The scientific way will be to find the least total advance that gives the best HP on dyno or best MPH at the 1/4 mile. Then if timing at idle rpm is too low, shorten the slots (or find a shorter advance plate).

Re: Distributor upgrade question [Re: rockerbob] #930932
02/20/11 02:15 PM
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Distributers don't make much power. I dynod my stroker with two different dist just to see the difference. The MSD pro billet distributer made 3 hp more than a new MP electronic unit. 570 vs 567. What was interesting was the MSD was "all in" much sooner and the MSD unit put out a more consistant spark. The dyno could see this I don't know if the car would see this at the track or not.

Re: Distributor upgrade question [Re: Mattax] #930933
02/20/11 02:41 PM
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Quote:

I think Robert has really answered your questions here. Let me second that there is very little if anything to be gained in the ignition system, especially the distributor.
1. You already have a multispark CD which which covers misfires etc that come with a racy cam.
2. Locking down the vacuum advance plate and phasing may help consistancy - depends on how accurate the repeatable the current dizzy is.
3. Advance curve may or may not be close to ideal for your setup. Changing the total mechanical may help your quarter mile MPH and ET. You don't need a fancy distributor for that. Removing the vacuum advance on a fairly stock engine will almost definately hurt mpg. It also will likley hurt part throttle response unless a lighter primary spring is used.

The newer MP distributors are based on a Mallory design. (You can do a search and see the tech archoves for details). They are slightly easier to take apart and modify but parts are not interchangable with older MP/DC or stock distributors. Again I agree with Robert. For your money, stay with a stock distributor, JY or parts store.

Save the old one. You may find inside your 'new' distributor a different set of springs, or advance plate or vacuum canister. These may or may not work better than your current one. Obviously if there is side play in the current shaft - the new one will better in that respect. So you may end up one or more of those components to the new distributor. Like Robert posted, most of the time a hopped up small block will like the advance shortened. It depends on the idle characteristics of the cam with the CR etc of the engine. Long duration, high overlap cams like 16-18 degrees initial. Your cam may not be that bad, but it still may want more than stock.

The scientific way will be to find the least total advance that gives the best HP on dyno or best MPH at the 1/4 mile. Then if timing at idle rpm is too low, shorten the slots (or find a shorter advance plate).




Guess I have a mini project ahead of me...taking apart my spare dizzy & trying all the tricks listed above. Sure beats the price of switching over to the MSD dizzy & wires. If I could pick up a tenth that would be nice. Right now I'm in the middle of redoing my dash & custome gauges/switches. Be a while before I can get to the dizzy tricks.


2005 Dakota 4X4 3.7 2004 Rumble Bee 5.7 1978 Diplomat 318 1969 Satellite 318 "bracket racer" 1966 Barracuda (in progress ) 1964 Dodge 330 (future race project) 1962 Belvedere (HUM????)
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