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Re: rons toilets vs bugcatcher
[Re: greendart408]
#898257
01/07/11 12:20 AM
01/07/11 12:20 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
Bob_Coomer
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Rock Springs
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I dont see how ones better than the other. They are similar for sure. Considering this, I would say it boils down to tune up. If you didnt see any return over a old carb setup....not trying to be smart... simply put, your doing it wrong. What size nozzle's, and bypass pill? How are you setting the idle circuit, and are you using EGT's as a tuning aid? Although not necessary these can be properly tuned without a EGT setup. You can use a leak down gauge for initial setup, I would say this would be critical, and somewhat difficult (its not easy with one) seeing there is two toilets. And Idle/butterfly setting along with barrel valve setting would be tricky. Im not totally sure how this setup would work, Im betting that the front toilet has the one barrel valve. I would make sure both butterflies are close in measurement with filler gauges. If its correct it should take gas like a brand new STIHL chain saw. Should see a best 60ft over a carb with gains of over .1 easy in 60ft alone. Should also see a gain in water temp from launch to the stripe.. If its not building heat (WOT ONLY) the tune up needs work. Also what kind of fuel system are you running or pushing to get the fuel to the barrel valve? stay away from any paper element filters, use a steel mesh in line style. If your interested I can get you a good base line setup... 
Last edited by Bob_Coomer; 01/07/11 12:23 AM.
[color:"red"]65 Hemi Belvedere coming soon [/color]
[color:"#00FF00"]557" Indy engine 1.07 60ft 144mph in the 8th 2100 lbs package [/color]
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Re: rons toilets vs bugcatcher
[Re: greendart408]
#898260
01/07/11 11:04 AM
01/07/11 11:04 AM
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 714
Central TEXAS!!!!
sr4440
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 714
Central TEXAS!!!!
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I am looking at your fuel system, can you get some better pics?
can you explain the two check valves you have in the system?
i think it is a tune up issue. what is the engine size, the pump size (GPM), nozzles and pill are you running?
Joe
PS the bird is just a air valve and you have plenty of air
Without Data, you’re just another guy with an opinion.
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Re: rons toilets vs bugcatcher
[Re: greendart408]
#898262
01/08/11 11:27 AM
01/08/11 11:27 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,925
NC
440Jim
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I Live Here
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Quote:
I don't have a tune up issue.
I am no expert, but your setup seems reasonable, albeit the pump is plenty big for a sb.
What is the A/F ratio curve going down the track (start to finish line)?
What is the EGT for each cylinder going down the track?
What is your water temp at starting line and finish line?
When you say you are disappointed, compared to what and what numbers?
IMO, with two 1240 cfm toilets on a tunnel ram, the bug catcher style air valve doesn't have any inherent benefit for drag racing ET/mph.
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Re: rons toilets vs bugcatcher
[Re: 440Jim]
#898263
01/08/11 12:39 PM
01/08/11 12:39 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,008
Sweet Home Alabama
MRMOPAR622
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top fuel
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Sweet Home Alabama
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Are you running a big enought hood(carb.)scoop to fed the toilet bowls? If they are not getting enought air that could cause a problem. You may also want to check your intake runners are they all equal? I have a Indy tunnel ram & I had mine CNC ported not so much for more air flow but to get the runners equal. I run 2 1475 (2950 cfm) terminators on mine and they are Awesome. I have the nozzels and pills about right now I may need to get my timing just right.I still have a lot to learn or I need to learn  On gas mine made the most power @ 35 degrees timing.And so far have kept it @ 35 degrees but want all I can get out of it. Should I go down or up to start with on the timing to make more power?
"To Be The Man'You Have Got To Beat The Man"
"T/D and Pro-Bracket Racer"
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Re: rons toilets vs bugcatcher
[Re: 440Jim]
#898264
01/08/11 12:54 PM
01/08/11 12:54 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,073
oregon
greendart408
OP
super stock
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OP
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oregon
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Quote:
Quote:
I don't have a tune up issue.
I am no expert, but your setup seems reasonable, albeit the pump is plenty big for a sb.
What is the A/F ratio curve going down the track (start to finish line)?
What is the EGT for each cylinder going down the track?
What is your water temp at starting line and finish line?
When you say you are disappointed, compared to what and what numbers?
IMO, with two 1240 cfm toilets on a tunnel ram, the bug catcher style air valve doesn't have any inherent benefit for drag racing ET/mph.
That is most of my problem... I don't have anything to compare it too. This whole motor is new and never been ran with a single four or regular dominator.
It goes down the track in the 1100 to 1150 pyro range...
my starting line temp I try to have at 155 or so and at the return road after a 1/4 pass it will be at or around 180.
Runs 9.60s consistently with my best pass a 9.63@139.58 car weighs 3100.
I need to play with my timing more also to see what it likes... currently at 32°
I agree with the injectors to the scoop clearance also. I have a hemi scoop with about 5/8 clearance on the back toilet and it runs like crap if I try to use the hood. Been running it with no hood.
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Re: rons toilets vs bugcatcher
[Re: go green]
#898266
01/08/11 02:48 PM
01/08/11 02:48 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,073
oregon
greendart408
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super stock
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super stock
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oregon
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Quote:
I picked up 3 tenths going from 32 degrees to 36 degrees with this setup.
Now this is the results I am after. 
Every motor reacts different.... but I will play with timing more next time out.
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Re: rons toilets vs bugcatcher
[Re: MRMOPAR622]
#898268
01/08/11 09:38 PM
01/08/11 09:38 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
Bob_Coomer
master
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master
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Rock Springs
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Watch the wide plug gaps on alky. Keep the plug gaps in the .030-.038 range. I lost a tenth in E/T after a tune up (plug change) and like to never found out where it went. Also as soon as you let off the fuel at the end of the track the engine should start cooling down some. You should see a 8 deg increase in water temp from launch to the strip. Sounds like you might be a hair lean. from 155° to 180° is a bunch of heat. If it was tuned in the ball park you wouldnt see that much heat if you tried. Only way I could get the engine to 180° on Alky is pulling the barrel valve damn near shut, and not running the water pump (cycle every moment or so)  With your E/T and MPH short times should be well in the 1.20 range easy.
[color:"red"]65 Hemi Belvedere coming soon [/color]
[color:"#00FF00"]557" Indy engine 1.07 60ft 144mph in the 8th 2100 lbs package [/color]
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Re: rons toilets vs bugcatcher
[Re: MRMOPAR622]
#898269
01/08/11 09:56 PM
01/08/11 09:56 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
Bob_Coomer
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
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Just talked to my buddy who's running a similar Small Ford running 5.90's in the 8th mile He's running 35 Nozzles, and a 92 bypass pill with the Rons 0 1/2 pump... I ran a 90 bypass and 38 nozzles on the Indy motor. That is probably a good base line, and you shouldnt be far off really. 
[color:"red"]65 Hemi Belvedere coming soon [/color]
[color:"#00FF00"]557" Indy engine 1.07 60ft 144mph in the 8th 2100 lbs package [/color]
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Re: rons toilets vs bugcatcher
[Re: greendart408]
#898271
01/08/11 11:14 PM
01/08/11 11:14 PM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,646
Plymouth Meeting, PA
bigtimeauto
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Posts: 2,646
Plymouth Meeting, PA
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I'm not a fan of rons stuff my self. I have found the jets to be sized incorrectly, chamfers rough or not there at all and their pumps inconsistent thru the RPM range. Also make sure your jets ARE the size they are stamped or you could have made a change in your thinking yet the car did not change because the jet was sized wrong.
Don't get all caught up on heat when the car is at idle. the idle mixture is a direct effect of your barrel valve adjustment nothing more. If you don't have accses to a chassis dyno and a flow meter Jet the car for full throttle highest MPH then when thats done make your barrel valve adjustment to get your throttle response. the fatter you make the barrel valve adjustment the cooler it will run when your foot is off the pedal and the leaner will be hotter and less responsive. try and find a happy medium between throttle response and heat. As for the timing keep the plugs around .030 and keep putting timing in it till it slows down, every head chamber reacts different to timing so you just have to try.
Did you get your tune-up right before putting the high speed to work?
A couple of hours on a chassis dyno with a flow meter will not only get you in the right place but will show you how different adjustments react.
BB, TT5,Procharged 3300lb Street Car 4.79/154
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Re: rons toilets vs bugcatcher
[Re: bigtimeauto]
#898272
01/08/11 11:26 PM
01/08/11 11:26 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,073
oregon
greendart408
OP
super stock
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super stock
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oregon
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Quote:
I'm not a fan of rons stuff my self. I have found the jets to be sized incorrectly, chamfers rough or not there at all and their pumps inconsistent thru the RPM range. Also make sure your jets ARE the size they are stamped or you could have made a change in your thinking yet the car did not change because the jet was sized wrong.
Don't get all caught up on heat when the car is at idle. the idle mixture is a direct effect of your barrel valve adjustment nothing more. If you don't have accses to a chassis dyno and a flow meter Jet the car for full throttle highest MPH then when thats done make your barrel valve adjustment to get your throttle response. the fatter you make the barrel valve adjustment the cooler it will run when your foot is off the pedal and the leaner will be hotter and less responsive. try and find a happy medium between throttle response and heat. As for the timing keep the plugs around .030 and keep putting timing in it till it slows down, every head chamber reacts different to timing so you just have to try.
Did you get your tune-up right before putting the high speed to work?
A couple of hours on a chassis dyno with a flow meter will not only get you in the right place but will show you how different adjustments react.
I agree also..I run kinsler pills only that are flowed.
Yes... I ran it with the high speed turned and tuned it for max mph. Then ran the highspeed.
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Re: rons toilets vs bugcatcher
[Re: greendart408]
#898273
01/08/11 11:34 PM
01/08/11 11:34 PM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,646
Plymouth Meeting, PA
bigtimeauto
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also i forgot, be careful with the pyrometer. As you advance or retard the timing it change those numbers. You can use that after you get the car running well to help diagnose if you have a issue.
do you know how to read a alky plug?
BB, TT5,Procharged 3300lb Street Car 4.79/154
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Re: rons toilets vs bugcatcher
[Re: greendart408]
#898275
01/09/11 09:44 AM
01/09/11 09:44 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,925
NC
440Jim
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 16,925
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Quote:
Motor size is 408cu. I have a 0.5 gear pump my flow chart is at work. 33nozzles. And my pill size vary with the weather and altitude as do my high speed pressures with my pill changes. I run it around 80 to 85 psi normally. I run normally at my home track a 86 pill.
There is more than one tune-up to give the same fuel flow. High pressure with small nozzles, and lower pressure with larger nozzles. The reason I think the 33 nozzles might be fine is because that is what I ran with methanol (26 with E85). CID, rpm, and vol. eff need to be considered, but for comparison mine is a 511 CID, 5500-7000 rpm, 0-1/2 vane pump, 4.1" toilet, 98 pill. My high speed bypass is set to crack at 77psi, so it likely goes higher but I don't have a pressure measurement going down the track. I set it with A/F from a wideband recorded data and time slip data.
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Re: rons toilets vs bugcatcher
[Re: 440Jim]
#898276
01/09/11 01:10 PM
01/09/11 01:10 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,073
oregon
greendart408
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
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oregon
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Quote:
Quote:
Motor size is 408cu. I have a 0.5 gear pump my flow chart is at work. 33nozzles. And my pill size vary with the weather and altitude as do my high speed pressures with my pill changes. I run it around 80 to 85 psi normally. I run normally at my home track a 86 pill.
There is more than one tune-up to give the same fuel flow. High pressure with small nozzles, and lower pressure with larger nozzles. The reason I think the 33 nozzles might be fine is because that is what I ran with methanol (26 with E85). CID, rpm, and vol. eff need to be considered, but for comparison mine is a 511 CID, 5500-7000 rpm, 0-1/2 vane pump, 4.1" toilet, 98 pill. My high speed bypass is set to crack at 77psi, so it likely goes higher but I don't have a pressure measurement going down the track. I set it with A/F from a wideband
recorded data and time slip data.
Jim, this is what Spud Miller from fuel injection enterprises set me up with..Had him flow everything before I started so my setup would be close. I have tuned it from his initial setup, but his tuneups have been very close. He likes to run the smaller nozzles at a higher pressure so it has good atomization sp.? I have never tried any bigger nozzles yet...
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Re: rons toilets vs bugcatcher
[Re: greendart408]
#898277
01/09/11 07:12 PM
01/09/11 07:12 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,008
Sweet Home Alabama
MRMOPAR622
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top fuel
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,008
Sweet Home Alabama
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I don't know about the small bock Mopars but the big block Mopars like more fuel than the brand xxxx engines.James Monroe says I am putting to much fuel in my engine,but it would not run with 38 nozzels. With the 39 nozzels I think it may be on the lean side,I have some 40 nozzels I am going to try next. If it ever warms up. We are under a Ice Warning for tonight & tomorrow.  It should have been warm enought the last couple of weeks to go to the track.
"To Be The Man'You Have Got To Beat The Man"
"T/D and Pro-Bracket Racer"
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Re: rons toilets vs bugcatcher
[Re: MRMOPAR622]
#898278
01/09/11 09:06 PM
01/09/11 09:06 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,008
Sweet Home Alabama
MRMOPAR622
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top fuel
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Posts: 2,008
Sweet Home Alabama
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I belive it is important to get plenty of air to the terminators,toilets or even carbs.. So I built a box to raise my scoop not only up over the roll cage for clean air but also to give it a larger volume of air.
Last edited by MRMOPAR570; 01/09/11 09:08 PM.
"To Be The Man'You Have Got To Beat The Man"
"T/D and Pro-Bracket Racer"
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Re: rons toilets vs bugcatcher
[Re: MRMOPAR622]
#898279
01/09/11 09:15 PM
01/09/11 09:15 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,008
Sweet Home Alabama
MRMOPAR622
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,008
Sweet Home Alabama
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I have found small peebles in my scoop(RE dragster)before so I made these out of some metal speaker covers. Does anyone think these might restrict my air flow?
Last edited by MRMOPAR570; 01/09/11 09:16 PM.
"To Be The Man'You Have Got To Beat The Man"
"T/D and Pro-Bracket Racer"
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