Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: torredcuda]
#889306
12/29/10 12:30 PM
12/29/10 12:30 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,234 Someplace you aren't
SomeCarGuy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,234
Someplace you aren't
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i am not siding with barry on his views necessarily,but,i don't care who you are,what reason you use, rebodying is illegal. period. anybody out there,i don't care what state you live in,when you remove the VIN tag from one vehicle and put it on another, it is against the law. there is no "grey" area in the law. it doesn't matter if you have a rust bucket 1 of 1 hemi cuda sitting there,and have a rustfree slant 6 barracuda,and swap the VIN,tags,numbers to that car to "save an important,rare car",you have committed fraud. there is no justification. there is no grey area. it is illegal. think you have done no wrong? make sure when you get that rebodied car done,and got to license it,make sure and tell the DMV,that you swapped the VIN tags on the car. we will read your next post on here from jail......
In that case,yes it is illegal but the gray area is when you are restoring a very rusty car and replacing a lot of metal on it and some still will call it a re-body even though the main structure is still there.I have also seen people get jumped on for merely innocently mentioning the word re-body.
There is nothing innocent about it. Rebody a car and then go to the "authorities" and see how it goes. A guy I know flushed his life down the drain rebodying tractors and backhoes. I think he is pulling 5 years after he used what was left of a multimillion dollar fortune to pay the lawyers.
That is that "gray area" though, right?
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Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: SomeCarGuy]
#889307
12/29/10 01:43 PM
12/29/10 01:43 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436 Blair County,PA
62maxwgn
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436
Blair County,PA
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i am not siding with barry on his views necessarily,but,i don't care who you are,what reason you use, rebodying is illegal. period. anybody out there,i don't care what state you live in,when you remove the VIN tag from one vehicle and put it on another, it is against the law. there is no "grey" area in the law. it doesn't matter if you have a rust bucket 1 of 1 hemi cuda sitting there,and have a rustfree slant 6 barracuda,and swap the VIN,tags,numbers to that car to "save an important,rare car",you have committed fraud. there is no justification. there is no grey area. it is illegal. think you have done no wrong? make sure when you get that rebodied car done,and got to license it,make sure and tell the DMV,that you swapped the VIN tags on the car. we will read your next post on here from jail......
In that case,yes it is illegal but the gray area is when you are restoring a very rusty car and replacing a lot of metal on it and some still will call it a re-body even though the main structure is still there.I have also seen people get jumped on for merely innocently mentioning the word re-body.
There is nothing innocent about it. Rebody a car and then go to the "authorities" and see how it goes. A guy I know flushed his life down the drain rebodying tractors and backhoes. I think he is pulling 5 years after he used what was left of a multimillion dollar fortune to pay the lawyers.
That is that "gray area" though, right?
Boy,we sure got away from the OP's original question.
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Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: 1_WILD_RT]
#889308
12/29/10 01:54 PM
12/29/10 01:54 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,966 Wendy, I'm home.
dstryr
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,966
Wendy, I'm home.
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Please someone give me a legitimate reason why you would REPRODUCE a fender tag other than greed/profit....
I will, and I bet a bunch of other honest guys would agree. Your car doesn't look complete without a steering wheel. Or a headliner. Or the left front fender. Or a fendertag. Also, like Bill's example, some are too rusted to put back on a nice resto. I've never flipped anything in my life. Could have tripled my money on both my A12 car and 69 Judge in '06. Too attached; I'll probably die with them in my name, so its not about greed or profit for me. Its not about the money to a whole lot of motorhead enthusiasts.
I don't argue that down the road the repros will be passed as originals and that is plainly, in my mind, dishonest, immoral, and fraudulent. But, 'legitimate reasoning' is subjective; in your mind my reasoning may not pass your scrutiny. And vice-versa.
dstryr, since 1986.
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Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: gomangoRTSE]
#889309
12/29/10 02:01 PM
12/29/10 02:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,527 minnesota
Kirby
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,527
minnesota
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I relate Barry to a wanna be cop,the kind that pulls you over b/c your car looks fast and you may break the speeed limit at some point.I am all for busting those actually comitting fraud by swapping/making vin tags but he way oversteps the bounds of his self appointed authority by attacking and threatening anyone who mentions or asks about fender tags,rebodying or restoring basketcases etc.The law is very gray on these matters and contrary to what he beleives he does not know it all. ____________________________________________
I will go along with this. I do believe if the chips were down and I were thinking of buying a car and really truely wanted to get information (reliable) information about the car I was buying (due diligence) I would appreciate Barry and his knowledge.
I dont know what private emails go on in private, I do hate to see the fighting tho. It upsets me like seeing family fight when we have get togethers. I too would like to have a build sheet. I dont care if it says COPY on it, I am a talker in person and I would like a conversation piece at the car shows.
The question "Why would someone want a fake fendertag and/or buildsheet want one other than greed or profit" The question bears consideration and I can only answer for myself. Here and now I document I dont have my buildsheet for my car, therefore anyone can place an asterick by my lil name or car. Still I love things like repro items legtimately available in the marketplace such has factory ads, stickers, articles etc. It tells a story about our cars when others show interest at shows or club get togethers etc. I dont think of them as profit centers but I CAN SEE HOW OTHERS WOULD in the hobby. So indeed both sides have legitimate issues. There can be room for disagreement as well as room for compromise in our hobby.
What if your original BS shows up now? Will it always be questioned as a fake- because you stated you didn't have it- and all of a sudden you do? Sorry just
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Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: dstryr]
#889310
12/29/10 02:05 PM
12/29/10 02:05 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436 Blair County,PA
62maxwgn
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436
Blair County,PA
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Please someone give me a legitimate reason why you would REPRODUCE a fender tag other than greed/profit....
I will, and I bet a bunch of other honest guys would agree. You're car doesn't look complete without a steering wheel. Or a headliner. Or the left front fender. Or a fendertag. Also, like Bill's example, some are too rusted to put back on a nice resto. I've never flipped anything in my life. Could have tripled my money on both my A12 car and 69 Judge in '06. Too attached; I'll probably die with them in my name, so its not about greed or profit for me. Its not about the money to a whole lot of motorhead enthusiasts.
I don't argue that down the road the repros will be passed as originals and that is plainly, in my mind, dishonest, immoral, and fraudulent. But, 'legitimate reasoning' is subjective; in your mind my reasoning may not pass your scrutiny. And vice-versa.
And Frank,it's your car,your money.Until someone else spends their money on your car,it's your decision right or wrong to do as you see fit.If you make the wrong decision,then you are the one that suffers the consequences,not the hundreds that respond with their opinions that change nothing.
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Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: Kirby]
#889312
12/29/10 02:15 PM
12/29/10 02:15 PM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,054 USA
b54406barrel
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,054
USA
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Wow, you go South for a few days & come back see this & know the Christmas spirit is still alive.
I really appreciate Barry for the fact that I was able to send him 'junk' that I was going to toss & he makes it available if someone can identify said junk. Doing that alone for free makes him aces with me. On the other hand, if tags are something a person really wants made, and it's not illegal, then I think they should be able to do that. As far as a fake sale down the road, if I'm the buyer, whether I get bamboozled or a great deal is my responsibility. But, I've always bought cars 'cause I liked 'em, never to make money. If it's your living, I'm sure you might feel different.
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Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: 68X426]
#889313
12/29/10 02:19 PM
12/29/10 02:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 27,347 Today? Who Knows?
1_WILD_RT
Management Trainee
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Management Trainee
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 27,347
Today? Who Knows?
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Since it was asked....
One question 1 I meant to add the tag is accurate & the info is verified either by having the remains of the original tag, a photo of the tag or in the case of those lucky enough the tag was in a data base like SIAC before the tag disappeared...
yes
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82%, 75 Votes
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no
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18%, 17 Votes
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yes
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13%, 12 Votes
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no
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87%, 81 Votes
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yes
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73%, 68 Votes
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no
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27%, 25 Votes
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Last edited by 1_WILD_RT; 12/29/10 02:27 PM.
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Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: 69CoronetRT]
#889317
12/29/10 02:32 PM
12/29/10 02:32 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 253 Orange County, CA
Mike H
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 253
Orange County, CA
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A spirited post, to say the least. Here's my two cents.
Fender tags and build sheets are not legally required, legally binding, nor illegal to produce or buy/sell.... Nothing immoral about it.
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So are you OK with the remade tag I posted earlier in the thread where major things were changed? Are you OK with selling and reselling the car down the road knowing about the major changes? How would future buyers know about these changes?
/quote]
Yes, I am ok with making major changes to a car. Yes, I am ok with having a tag made to reflect those changes. PERSONALLY, I would trash the tag if I sold the car. But if someone else would leave the tag with the car, misrepresenting it to make more $, or even informing the new buyer the tag was not original, I stand by what I said in an earlier post; the responsibility to make sure you are getting what you pay for is THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE BUYER.
Why would ANYONE pay top $ for something that is easy to imitate, or that can't be verified as authentic? If you personally don't know the history of the car, put your money in gold, for pete's sake.
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Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: 70Runnerdude]
#889318
12/29/10 02:55 PM
12/29/10 02:55 PM
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711 USA
ECS
David Walden
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David Walden
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
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6 pages of posts and yet no responses hardly to my questions that originaly started this topic. it is more a Barry aginst Dave post now.
Hello Dave. My initial post WAS in response to your ordeal. I was trying to convey how rudely you were treated by someone who has no more authority than you or anyone else who has posted here.
I want to make something perfectly clear. Nowhere have I ever stated that criminal, deceptive or manipulative practices should be allowed in this Hobby or anywhere else!! My only point was that these guys who go around verifying and certifying your automobiles, have no more credibility than the "Customers" they charge to "validate" their cars. They are a perfect parallel comparison to the "Clown" in the Holiday Inn Express commercials.
For those who have no idea what ECS Automotive Concepts is all about (or authorized to do) we are a branch/extension of the Automobile Manufactures Association, a Licensed vendor to reproduce Federal VIN Labels for the Automobile manufacturers, a Licensed and Certified OE label supplier for CODA Electric Cars and a preferred vendor for almost every Major Insurance Company. We also work with Federal Agencies as they relate to the Automotive Industry. We are currently working with the CIC and SCRS to change some of the Laws that Govern the VIN program.
Now I know that we pale in comparison to Barry and Galen when it comes to credentials but we are certainly trying to expand our boundaries. In response to people like "SomeCarGuy" who try and group us as some type of illegitimate Company......think whatever you want! I couldn't care less if you assume we have "fake cars" or what ever else a person with an IQ of room temperature thinks. They are all Fake! Especially the four door Valiant. It use to be a HEMI Dart but we made it into a Slant Six. I must admit that guy is a genius....he figured it out! I suggest that he continue to "go down to the local jail" hang out with the "scummy guys" while us honest Authorized and Certified people handle the big stuff! Of course I could do like the "other guys" and use my "Authority" to contact my friends/agencies and make sure that people like "SomeCarGuy" are up to speed in the car he is driving somewhere in Kentucky! (You're not as hidden as you think! We know who you are.)
(Sorry for using the last part of the post to go off topic Dave! Happy Holidays!!)
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Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: DAYCLONA]
#889319
12/29/10 03:25 PM
12/29/10 03:25 PM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 390 kentucky
superbyrd
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 390
kentucky
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Quote:
Where's the poll for re-bodied cars with real or "fake" tags?
i would love to see if dayclona is stupid enough to take a rebodied car to the DMV and tell them that he swapped the VIN tag off another car. because,if he doesn't tell it. well,than he is just a fraud. or,you don't tell it,and your still a fraud. unless the laws of every state in the united states,doesn't apply to you....
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Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: dstryr]
#889322
12/29/10 03:55 PM
12/29/10 03:55 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 16,844 Phoenix - surface of the sun
nomore65BelvJim
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 16,844
Phoenix - surface of the sun
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Your car doesn't look complete without a steering wheel. Or a headliner. Or the left front fender. Or a fendertag.
A fender tag is not a part of the car so its an inappropriate comparison.
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Also, like Bill's example, some are too rusted to put back on a nice resto.
So if its "too rusted" how do you know a "reproduction" tag will be correct?
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I've never flipped anything in my life. Could have tripled my money on both my A12 car and 69 Judge in '06.
well, good for you! or bad, depending on your perspective I suppose.
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I don't argue that down the road the repros will be passed as originals and that is plainly, in my mind, dishonest, immoral, and fraudulent. But, 'legitimate reasoning' is subjective; in your mind my reasoning may not pass your scrutiny. And vice-versa.
So if you agree that the "reproduction" tags will be passed off as originals down the road arent you just supporting a future fraudulent act by not making it obvious that it is a non-original tag? Perhaps some "extra stamping" that would make it plain to a blind man that it was in fact not the original?
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Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: ECS]
#889323
12/29/10 04:12 PM
12/29/10 04:12 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,098 A Banana Republic near you.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,098
A Banana Republic near you.
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For those who have no idea what ECS Automotive Concepts is all about (or authorized to do) .... We are currently working with the CIC and SCRS to change some of the Laws that Govern the VIN program.
Would that include making it ok to jack up a VIN tag and body stampings and driving a fresh body under them ?
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