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Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: 70Runnerdude]
#889224
12/28/10 04:36 PM
12/28/10 04:36 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,048
Atlanta Indiana
Dave Watt
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,048
Atlanta Indiana
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Quote:
Was just accused of making fake fender tags and passing them off by Barry Washington and he hung up on me on the phone.
I dont know what I did to get this kind of response and it really bothers me as I consider myself a straight up Guy.
Only thing I ever did was have Galen Govier make me a duplicate tag for my 70 Challenger R/T to match my build sheet with no intention of it ever being passed of as a real tag along with Galen's documentation of the carfrom the build sheet and showing He had made a tag. Also a while back I posted some questions as to how I could have a copy of my original tag made for my roadrunner once I found out it couldnt be done from the posters here on moparts I left it at that. The other day I went to the Hamtrack historical site and I see there is some dealer info on my car at the Hamtrack site and I try to call Him and ask Him about it all I get from is Him telling me off about making fake fender tags and hanging up on me with out me even being able to ask Him a single thing or explain what I wanted to ask Him.
I am totaly confused on this big time ! Anyone else have this kind of experience ? 
Dave
Hopefully something can be worked out to get the information for your car. It would be a bummer to know paperwork is waiting for you but not be able to recieve it.
This thead really opened up a can of worms.  Where is the "opening a can of worms" smiley?
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Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: SomeCarGuy]
#889225
12/28/10 04:36 PM
12/28/10 04:36 PM
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
ECS
David Walden
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David Walden
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
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Quote:
Seems to be hitting home for some reason with you. 
Yes, it is called mistreating others because they have a differing opinion or view......especially when their divinity is based solely on their opinions. Did you happen to read this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Clothes It is almost a perfect parallel to what has happened to our Hobby! 
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Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: ECS]
#889226
12/28/10 04:40 PM
12/28/10 04:40 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,048
Atlanta Indiana
Dave Watt
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,048
Atlanta Indiana
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Quote:
Yes, it is called mistreating others because they have a differing opinion or view......
I agree Dave, look at how many differing viewpoints there are just in this thread alone. We could all try to shove our viewpoints down someones throat, but at the end of the day they still have their own opinion.
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Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: Dave Watt]
#889227
12/28/10 04:54 PM
12/28/10 04:54 PM
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
ECS
David Walden
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David Walden
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
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Quote:
Quote:
Yes, it is called mistreating others because they have a differing opinion or view......
I agree Dave, look at how many differing viewpoints there are just in this thread alone. We could all try to shove our viewpoints down someones throat, but at the end of the day they still have their own opinion.
I agree Dave that is why I have tried to support and stick up for the main group that TRULY represents the Hobby! If you like a car....buy it! You want to change and alter it....change it! You want to blow it up in your front yard...blow it up! Making up phony rules and phantom compliance's does nothing more than convey some of these folk's lack of self esteem. If they can tell everyone else what to do, how to act or how to think, they feel like they are in control. Simply Pathetic!
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Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: Rhinodart]
#889228
12/28/10 04:55 PM
12/28/10 04:55 PM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,954
Blairsden, CA
Triggerfish
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,954
Blairsden, CA
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Quote:
The Hemmings article link below talks about that black Hemicuda that was sold at B-J for $801K and was being investigated, anyone know the outcome?
Quote:
I understand your predicament & hope you can find your original. I started a resto 5 yrs ago on my 68 383, 4spd Formula S & misplaced the tag or my mechanic did. Either way, I've got to find the original & even though I have the build sheet, I won't buy a ropop fender tag. The repops look fake to the discerning eye, anyway, & a few yrs ago, my bro bought a $42K, rotiserrie restored 68 GTX from a very 'reputable' dealer & resto shop that was a fake. He didn't know it until 6 mos after he sold the car to put his daughter thru college. Now, after looking at the tag, I can see its a fake. I'd never buy a car from this dealer & certainly question his reputation whether he know about it or not.
I agree, it depends on intent, but I certainly understand Barry's stand. Don't get me wrong, I'm in NO way accusing you of being dishonest, nor demeaning your intent with the following link. This article is exactly why, I believe, Barry feels the way he does. I was a victim of this guy who sold me a damaged 70 hemi block & crank & only found recourse by adding it to this lawsuit, because Barry & another Moparts member saw Pappas's ad on ebay & Hemmings & knew he was selling a fake &posted it on cuda chllenger.com.
Hats off to Barry & Aaron who noticed his tag & vin plate were fakes & posted it on the net. Here's the link http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/2006/07/01/hmn_feature16.html
I was going to make a tag on my hemi challenger clone & put OH MANGO Kick ass Hemi, on the bottom line, but never did.
Anyway, best of luck finding your tag.
This link is about a Hemi orange N code Cuda that Pappas forged the VIN & Fender tags on. I don't think it had anything to do w/ the black hemi cuda. The court gave him 3 or 6 mos probation & I think he was allowed to keep the cuda (now with a NY police tag). What a travesty of justice, imo. He also forged the tag on a 69 coronet in Florida & got busted. Thanks to Aaron Hucker & Barry who caught the ads on Ebay & Hemmings & warned everyone, I was able to get some recourse on the hemi block. That was almost 2 yrs after I bought the block, too. The NY detective, Cliff Beider, who'se a Mopar guy, said tag forgery is epidemic in NY. Hats off to Aaron & Barry
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Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: ECS]
#889229
12/28/10 05:00 PM
12/28/10 05:00 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,226
Someplace you aren't
SomeCarGuy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,226
Someplace you aren't
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OK, so if you THINK you have done the due diligence and checked out a car, then get it home and find out it is a fake... Would you still be opposed to people like Barry that freely provide information that would have helped you, even as an "expert"(whatever that is) to determine what a car is? This gets back to an argument that many have that "I outsmarted somebody, so it is right for me to do what others think is wrong because I can". "It is the other guy's fault that he didn't catch me." "What do you mean I committed fraud? He could have figured it out. I have a right to do as I damn well please." 
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Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: SomeCarGuy]
#889230
12/28/10 05:04 PM
12/28/10 05:04 PM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,912
Anchorage, Alaska
Iceman01
Challenged
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Challenged
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,912
Anchorage, Alaska
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Quote:
OK, so if you THINK you have done the due diligence and checked out a car, then get it home and find out it is a fake...
Would you still be opposed to people like Barry that freely provide information that would have helped you, even as an "expert"(whatever that is) to determine what a car is?
This gets back to an argument that many have that "I outsmarted somebody, so it is right for me to do what others think is wrong because I can". "It is the other guy's fault that he didn't catch me."
"What do you mean I committed fraud? He could have figured it out. I have a right to do as I damn well please."
Hey, I know... let's all agree to live in our own police state so Big Brother can ensure nothing could ever possibly go wrong! 
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Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: NicksGarage]
#889231
12/28/10 05:09 PM
12/28/10 05:09 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 253
Orange County, CA
Mike H
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 253
Orange County, CA
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A spirited post, to say the least. Here's my two cents.
Fender tags and build sheets are not legally required, legally binding, nor illegal to produce or buy/sell. If someone wants to fill the void under the hood or have a build sheet made to look like the original,complete with rusty seat spring marks, whether they possess the original or not is totally their decision. Nothing immoral about it.
Dissing those who produce or want such items just because some use said items to misrepresent their car is exactly like some whining liberal blaming Glock or Sig for the murder rate.
"Fake" is a pejorative. That term is perhaps more aptly reserved for things like my repop Challenger wheel well moldings that took an entire day and every four letter word I know to fit. Those, my friends, were fakes.
Nobody in the 60's was prescient. Nobody figured these cars would ever command the $ they do today. Had they been, I'm sure the manufacturers would have been taken steps to authenticate the uniqueness of the cars and prevent "counterfeiting" beyond just some chintzy metal tag.
The last I checked, "let the buyer beware" applied to mopars like everything else. If I pay a million bucks for a fake Van Gogh, the last person who deserves my wrath is the litho shop that produced the painting. I have no one but myself to blame for not enlisting the services of skilled art appraisers.
For example, take a 69 1/2 RR Six Pack car vs. a Satellite clone of the same. The only differences between those cars are a couple of letters and numbers on a couple of small pieces of sheet metal. If someone thinks those little pieces of metal are worth an additional $85K, that's their trip. But they only have themselves to blame, not the fender tag reproducer, for not ending up with the real deal.
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Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: ECS]
#889233
12/28/10 05:40 PM
12/28/10 05:40 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,226
Someplace you aren't
SomeCarGuy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,226
Someplace you aren't
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You seem to take a lot of fun in calling out the "Barney Fife" guys that bring this to light. I sure do see dishonesty in many, many facets of life. Making bogus tags is a great example. I'm not sure why some think that it is a right for whoever to make fake stuff, yet at the same time, think it is wrong for guys like Barry to call them out. Barry(and others) must not have any rights? If you think the gubmint can or should protect us from everything, well, good luck with that. They can't be everywhere, they don't have the expertise that hobbiests do in a matter like this. Some things it is up to "we the people" to enforce. Sharing info about fake stuff in our hobby is one way to combat fraud.
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Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: Mike H]
#889234
12/28/10 05:43 PM
12/28/10 05:43 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,226
Someplace you aren't
SomeCarGuy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,226
Someplace you aren't
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Quote:
A spirited post, to say the least. Here's my two cents.
Fender tags and build sheets are not legally required, legally binding, nor illegal to produce or buy/sell. If someone wants to fill the void under the hood or have a build sheet made to look like the original,complete with rusty seat spring marks, whether they possess the original or not is totally their decision. Nothing immoral about it.
Dissing those who produce or want such items just because some use said items to misrepresent their car is exactly like some whining liberal blaming Glock or Sig for the murder rate.
"Fake" is a pejorative. That term is perhaps more aptly reserved for things like my repop Challenger wheel well moldings that took an entire day and every four letter word I know to fit. Those, my friends, were fakes.
Nobody in the 60's was prescient. Nobody figured these cars would ever command the $ they do today. Had they been, I'm sure the manufacturers would have been taken steps to authenticate the uniqueness of the cars and prevent "counterfeiting" beyond just some chintzy metal tag.
The last I checked, "let the buyer beware" applied to mopars like everything else. If I pay a million bucks for a fake Van Gogh, the last person who deserves my wrath is the litho shop that produced the painting. I have no one but myself to blame for not enlisting the services of skilled art appraisers.
For example, take a 69 1/2 RR Six Pack car vs. a Satellite clone of the same. The only differences between those cars are a couple of letters and numbers on a couple of small pieces of sheet metal. If someone thinks those little pieces of metal are worth an additional $85K, that's their trip. But they only have themselves to blame, not the fender tag reproducer, for not ending up with the real deal.
Thanks for proving my point about those that think "because I can I should, screw everybody. I do what I want and they can deal with it since I'm so smart".
Couldn't have timed that much better.
None of that changes the reasoning behind people with information sharing it with others to prevent fraud.
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Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: Mike H]
#889236
12/28/10 06:07 PM
12/28/10 06:07 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
DAYCLONA
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
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A spirited post, to say the least. Here's my two cents.
Fender tags and build sheets are not legally required, legally binding, nor illegal to produce or buy/sell. If someone wants to fill the void under the hood or have a build sheet made to look like the original,complete with rusty seat spring marks, whether they possess the original or not is totally their decision. Nothing immoral about it.
Dissing those who produce or want such items just because some use said items to misrepresent their car is exactly like some whining liberal blaming Glock or Sig for the murder rate.
"Fake" is a pejorative. That term is perhaps more aptly reserved for things like my repop Challenger wheel well moldings that took an entire day and every four letter word I know to fit. Those, my friends, were fakes.
Nobody in the 60's was prescient. Nobody figured these cars would ever command the $ they do today. Had they been, I'm sure the manufacturers would have been taken steps to authenticate the uniqueness of the cars and prevent "counterfeiting" beyond just some chintzy metal tag.
The last I checked, "let the buyer beware" applied to mopars like everything else. If I pay a million bucks for a fake Van Gogh, the last person who deserves my wrath is the litho shop that produced the painting. I have no one but myself to blame for not enlisting the services of skilled art appraisers.
For example, take a 69 1/2 RR Six Pack car vs. a Satellite clone of the same. The only differences between those cars are a couple of letters and numbers on a couple of small pieces of sheet metal. If someone thinks those little pieces of metal are worth an additional $85K, that's their trip. But they only have themselves to blame, not the fender tag reproducer, for not ending up with the real deal.
Very well put Mike, my thoughts on this matter exactly,......nice to see others share the same view
Mike
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Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: anlauto]
#889238
12/28/10 06:28 PM
12/28/10 06:28 PM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,343
SE PA.
QuickBpBp
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,343
SE PA.
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Quote:
Quote:
Hopefully something can be worked out to get the information for your car. It would be a bummer to know paperwork is waiting for you but not be able to receive it.
This is the part that burns my A$$....Barry's web site shows he has information on this guys car, but Barry's not going to share it because Barry doesn't like the guy  I got the same response when I asked about a T/A that a customer wanted to buy....Barry doesn't like me so he's not willing to help....
Such is his right...I really don't care, but the ironic thing is...Barry has obtained some of his published info without the owners consent in the first place...So who's the crook here ?
I have a ton of respect for guys like Barry who take the time and put fourth the effort to run such registries because I'm a firm believer in them....
It's when these people start playing "God" with our hobby is when it starts getting out of hand.
Alan I'll quote you so he can see it LOL... 
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Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: joewhite440]
#889239
12/28/10 06:31 PM
12/28/10 06:31 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
DAYCLONA
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
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]The "Hemi Charger" they are rebuilding on the TV show Chop Cut and Rebuild is suppose to be "one of one as stated by Galon Govier on the show if it exist". The only parts they are reusing are the unibody, all the sheet metal including the Roof and some of the Roof supports are being replaced. They have to weld the sections with the body vins back into the new AMD Rad Support and trunk Rail panels. But I am sure if GTS says it is good it will be worth Giant money. Has anyone else watched this show? Am I confused on what they are doing? With that much metal replaced is it considered the same car just because they reused the Vins? I do not know where to draw the line on these rebuilds.
You draw the line where your personal opinion is formed and/or determined,....I for one can't "understand" the rational when someone cobbles together a car from a collection of used/NOS parts and a dozen donors and 500 miles of welding wire to basically a VIN/ fender tag, claim it as a "numbers" restoration and "saving" the original car, yet give some guy grief over a "rebody" because he rolled a nice rustfree donor under the tags instead,....he basically acheived the same results, albeit with a better structure IMHO,....regarding the "cut/chop/build" Charger I really see nothing wrong with the "way" the car was "restored",....it's status or lack of status regarding "numbers" or production criteria means nothing to me,...I see it as a machine, repaired/rebuilt using whatever method was needed to "revive" it, and if they want to "hang" a set of "numbered tags" on it, that boast of it uniqueness, that's fine with me, it's just the same as a name tag worn by a greeter at Walmart that "marks" their "uniqueness" in the world 
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Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: Mike H]
#889240
12/28/10 06:33 PM
12/28/10 06:33 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
A spirited post, to say the least. Here's my two cents.
Fender tags and build sheets are not legally required, legally binding, nor illegal to produce or buy/sell. If someone wants to fill the void under the hood or have a build sheet made to look like the original,complete with rusty seat spring marks, whether they possess the original or not is totally their decision. Nothing immoral about it.
Dissing those who produce or want such items just because some use said items to misrepresent their car is exactly like some whining liberal blaming Glock or Sig for the murder rate.
"Fake" is a pejorative. That term is perhaps more aptly reserved for things like my repop Challenger wheel well moldings that took an entire day and every four letter word I know to fit. Those, my friends, were fakes.
Nobody in the 60's was prescient. Nobody figured these cars would ever command the $ they do today. Had they been, I'm sure the manufacturers would have been taken steps to authenticate the uniqueness of the cars and prevent "counterfeiting" beyond just some chintzy metal tag.
The last I checked, "let the buyer beware" applied to mopars like everything else. If I pay a million bucks for a fake Van Gogh, the last person who deserves my wrath is the litho shop that produced the painting. I have no one but myself to blame for not enlisting the services of skilled art appraisers.
For example, take a 69 1/2 RR Six Pack car vs. a Satellite clone of the same. The only differences between those cars are a couple of letters and numbers on a couple of small pieces of sheet metal. If someone thinks those little pieces of metal are worth an additional $85K, that's their trip. But they only have themselves to blame, not the fender tag reproducer, for not ending up with the real deal.
what he said
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Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#889241
12/28/10 06:55 PM
12/28/10 06:55 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 15,996
RI Deep in the rust belt
chargervert
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 15,996
RI Deep in the rust belt
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Although it was many years ago,I remember the days when people used to look under the hood of a Mopar,to see what made them go so fast. Nobody cared about tags and numbers. The only dollar amount that was discussed,was how much the wager was to race that 454 Chevelle,that just went by on the Ave. Sometimes I really miss those days.
70 Charger R/T SE 472 Hemi
70 Charger R/T convertible
70 Charger R/T V Code Sixpack
69 Charger R/T SE Sunroofcar
68 Charger 383
68 Charger 318
71 Charger R/T
70 Challenger convertible
71 Challenger convertible
71 Cuda 340
09 Challenger R/T Classic
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Re: Fake fender tags
[Re: Mike H]
#889243
12/28/10 07:32 PM
12/28/10 07:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,179
Walton, Indiana
TimS
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,179
Walton, Indiana
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Hot Topic!! By the way, Galen has been working with a guy back East ( formally called AG Backeast) and charging a handsome price to make fender tags for years. Not sure if they are still in together or not. All you needed was a broadcast sheet. I checked on this about 20 years ago. AG would not do one unless Galen blessed it.
1968 Barracuda Fastback 318-2BBL 904 2.76 Frost Blue Survivor
1970 Roadrunner 440+6 BBL 727 AT 4.10 SG Dana Blue Fire Metallic
1971 Cuda 340-4 BBL 4spd 3.91 SG Curious Yellow
1972 Barracuda 318-2 BBL 904 AT 3.23 1 Legger Tor Red/White Vinyl Top
2007 Dodge Ram 1500 5.7 Hemi AT Patriot Blue
2011 Dodge Challenger RT 5.7 Hemi 6spd 392 SG Triple Black
2014 Dodge Charger RT Max AWD 5.7 Hemi AT 305 Billet Silver
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