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Re: Oil Consumption Culprit Found?
[Re: bboogieart]
#877726
12/11/10 09:06 PM
12/11/10 09:06 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880
Out in Left Field, NY
bobs66440
OP
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Quote:
Looks like.
If the intake gasket is leaking it can in deed suck up a lot of oil, but a leak like that will usually cause the motor to run very poorly. Pic number three looks really bad. Leaking at the top of the intake runner. Is that orange on the intake paint from another engine? Sealer?
It looks like orange paint, presumably from another engine because this one isn't orange. Though I suppose it could be sealer...
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Re: Oil Consumption Culprit Found?
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#877729
12/11/10 09:16 PM
12/11/10 09:16 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880
Out in Left Field, NY
bobs66440
OP
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Quote:
Others disagree but I prefer to use the composition gaskets on both sides of the valley pan. I even superglue them to the pan the day before install--very anal about it, I create wood plates to clamp both sides.
Do you mean these?
 I was thinking of using these but heard that they raise the intake up too high to get the bolts started...though I haven't tried it yet.
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Re: Oil Consumption Culprit Found?
[Re: bobs66440]
#877730
12/11/10 09:26 PM
12/11/10 09:26 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,825
Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,825
Kirkland, Washington
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Quote:
Quote:
Others disagree but I prefer to use the composition gaskets on both sides of the valley pan. I even superglue them to the pan the day before install--very anal about it, I create wood plates to clamp both sides.
Do you mean these?
I was thinking of using these but heard that they raise the intake up too high to get the bolts started...though I haven't tried it yet.
Yep ! Absolutely. Mock it up first to see if fitment is an issue, I've had good luck with 4 different intakes on 2 different 440's, One with milled heads too.
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Re: Oil Consumption Culprit Found?
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#877731
12/11/10 09:35 PM
12/11/10 09:35 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880
Out in Left Field, NY
bobs66440
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Others disagree but I prefer to use the composition gaskets on both sides of the valley pan. I even superglue them to the pan the day before install--very anal about it, I create wood plates to clamp both sides.
Do you mean these?
I was thinking of using these but heard that they raise the intake up too high to get the bolts started...though I haven't tried it yet.
Yep ! Absolutely. Mock it up first to see if fitment is an issue, I've had good luck with 4 different intakes on 2 different 440's, One with milled heads too.
Would you use any sealer with the gaskets?
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Re: Oil Consumption Culprit Found?
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#877733
12/11/10 09:44 PM
12/11/10 09:44 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880
Out in Left Field, NY
bobs66440
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Quote:
I use superglue to the pan so there is no chance of them "walking". I don't use anything against the intake or heads.
You could use something else to secure them to the pan, but make sure is gasoline resistant.
After I glue them I then trim any excess material that protrudes beyond the intake divider.
Ok, thanks! 
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Re: Oil Consumption Culprit Found?
[Re: SomeCarGuy]
#877737
12/11/10 11:49 PM
12/11/10 11:49 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880
Out in Left Field, NY
bobs66440
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Quote:
Check intake for straightness. W/o the heat riser blocked, it sends a ton of heat to it.
I will definitely do that. And I'm going to block the crossover too.
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Re: Oil Consumption Culprit Found?
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#877739
12/12/10 09:46 AM
12/12/10 09:46 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,978
VA
DAMOPARS
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,978
VA
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Quote:
I had good luck with using no extra gaskets or sealer on the valley pan. I just shot both sides with several good coats of the permatex copper spray, did the rtv on the pan rails. Also had to use permatex thread sealer on the intake manifold bolts because a lot of oil was getting sucked up the threads.
Looks like oil around the bolt holes.
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Re: Oil Consumption Culprit Found?
[Re: DAMOPARS]
#877740
12/12/10 10:29 AM
12/12/10 10:29 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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I'd suggest a thin/light/even swath of Permatex #1 (in the toothpaste like tube) around each side of the 8 port openings in the valley pan AND b 4 that, mocking it up to see if the port alignment is pretty much spot on & milling the intake if it isn't (plus it straightens the intake face) cause as you know it's along the bottom that the oil is being drawn in. Holler how it turns out. EDIT I agree get a blocked off valley pan & if using his thin gaskets that's an excellent idea to super glue the gaskets in place (not at the port openings as I am not sure superglue is gas resistant) in addition to (imnho) permatex #1 (or your choice of (non rtv) sealer) on the port openings. The MP/felpro paper gaskets I have seen are too poorly cut to suit me and they are thick which is OK if the intake (or head) face is milled so you have good port alignment. #1 port alignment & yes some have used pans dry sucessfully but I dont see the metal ridge being pliable enough to seal 15 in hg esp if both sides ain't milled perfectly flat. If your handy w an exacto knife cut your own and can get em dead nuts perfect.
Last edited by RapidRobert; 12/12/10 12:42 PM.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Oil Consumption Culprit Found?
[Re: DAMOPARS]
#877743
12/12/10 11:21 AM
12/12/10 11:21 AM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880
Out in Left Field, NY
bobs66440
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Quote:
Quote:
I had good luck with using no extra gaskets or sealer on the valley pan. I just shot both sides with several good coats of the permatex copper spray, did the rtv on the pan rails. Also had to use permatex thread sealer on the intake manifold bolts because a lot of oil was getting sucked up the threads.
Looks like oil around the bolt holes.
Yeah, I'm definitely going to use thread sealer. When it was together and running there was oil running up one of the bolts and making a puddle in the intake. You can see it here...
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Re: Oil Consumption Culprit Found?
[Re: bobs66440]
#877745
12/12/10 12:20 PM
12/12/10 12:20 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 15,487
Florida
scratchnfotraction
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 15,487
Florida
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on the thin gaskets..how much? where to order? I am waiting on a felpro pan with heat blocked off,was told to just use the copper spray and pan only for a BB intake swap have also been told just the pan dry will be fine,and is reusable as long as I keep the same intake..  kinda interested in this,I dont want the same trouble with it sucking oil 
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Re: Oil Consumption Culprit Found?
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#877748
12/12/10 12:48 PM
12/12/10 12:48 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,494
Western Colorado High Desert
moparmarks
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,494
Western Colorado High Desert
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Quote:
I had good luck with using no extra gaskets or sealer on the valley pan. I just shot both sides with several good coats of the permatex copper spray, did the rtv on the pan rails. Also had to use permatex thread sealer on the intake manifold bolts because a lot of oil was getting sucked up the threads.
Done it this way for 35 years. Never a problem. I use HiTack aircraft sealer on all my wet bolts.
72 Satellite Sebring Plus 440, 72 Dart 5.9 4-spd, 68 Valiant, 73 W200, 78 D100 sb, 78 D200, 98 DAKOTA, . Moparmarks Parts & Restorations Desert Mopar Metal Grand Jct. CO 970-261-7039 http://moparmark.com/motormangj@gmail.com
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Re: Oil Consumption Culprit Found?
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#877749
12/12/10 12:48 PM
12/12/10 12:48 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,020
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,020
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
1qt/200 miles is a Lot of oil to suck buy the pan but I suppose its possible. Others disagree but I prefer to use the composition gaskets on both sides of the valley pan. I even superglue them to the pan the day before install--very anal about it, I create wood plates to clamp both sides.
What ever you do dont use RTV around the intake runners--RTV is not gasoline resistant.
You may have more than one source of oil loss.
I would say that is where most of the oil is getting in there. I like to use at least one gasket , and have a little machined off the intake , the composition gasket are .030 thick EACH .
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Re: Oil Consumption Culprit Found?
[Re: JohnRR]
#877750
12/12/10 01:31 PM
12/12/10 01:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,789
A collage of whims
topside
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,789
A collage of whims
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I sent PMs to the guys that asked about the .015 gaskets, but if anyone else is interested send me a PM or email me directly at topside340@yahoo.com. We're also on Ebay, seller name topside340, same as our tools. Made them for exactly this kind of deal, seal it for sure when you assemble it and no worries.
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Re: Oil Consumption Culprit Found?
[Re: JohnRR]
#877751
12/12/10 02:04 PM
12/12/10 02:04 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 807
Toronto, Canada
dirtybee
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 807
Toronto, Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
1qt/200 miles is a Lot of oil to suck buy the pan but I suppose its possible. Others disagree but I prefer to use the composition gaskets on both sides of the valley pan. I even superglue them to the pan the day before install--very anal about it, I create wood plates to clamp both sides.
What ever you do dont use RTV around the intake runners--RTV is not gasoline resistant.
You may have more than one source of oil loss.
I would say that is where most of the oil is getting in there. I like to use at least one gasket , and have a little machined off the intake , the composition gasket are .030 thick EACH .
this is the best solution, it's a pain in the butt finding a good machine shop that can take 0.025" or 0.030" off each side but then you can add a gasket to the valley pan without messing up the alignment of the ports and creating this aggravating problem. anyone know if other v8's have this problem or is it just mopar big blocks? why is it so common with our engines?
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Re: Oil Consumption Culprit Found?
[Re: bobs66440]
#877754
12/12/10 03:53 PM
12/12/10 03:53 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,020
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
I test fit the intake with two of the .030 gaskets on each side(but without the pan because I don't have one yet...picking it up later) and I could run all the bolts in with no problem. It may be a little tight with the pan, but as it is now I can still move the intake up and down a little (maybe .040-.050) with all the bolts threaded in.
Well now you know why it's leaking , you shouldn't be able to do that with that much gasket in there , clean it up , all 4 gaskets and the pan and you should be good to go, clean out as much of the oil as possible, intake valves closed of course.
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Re: Oil Consumption Culprit Found?
[Re: bobs66440]
#877756
12/12/10 04:09 PM
12/12/10 04:09 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,073
Niles , Ohio
therocks
oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
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oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,073
Niles , Ohio
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The sealer probally dried and cracked.Thats why I always install my pan dry.Ive run them like that for 40 years and never had any leaks.I even run aluminum intake steel heads and aluminum heads and intake that way.As long as the heads and intake are clean and flat they seal.Back in the 60s we reused the pans all the time.They were expensive then at like 25 bucks a pop.Just some silicone at the 4 corners and under the hold downs.Rocky
Chrysler Firepower
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Re: Oil Consumption Culprit Found?
[Re: BSB67]
#877757
12/12/10 04:20 PM
12/12/10 04:20 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880
Out in Left Field, NY
bobs66440
OP
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Quote:
Sounds like the bolts might have been holding the intake off of the head
Aha, yes. That makes sense because I put the intake on without the gaskets and looked in the bolt holes and they didn't line up.
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Re: Oil Consumption Culprit Found?
[Re: dirtybee]
#877759
12/12/10 06:40 PM
12/12/10 06:40 PM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,343
SE PA.
QuickBpBp
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,343
SE PA.
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Quote:
this is the best solution, it's a pain in the butt finding a good machine shop that can take 0.025" or 0.030" off each side but then you can add a gasket to the valley pan without messing up the alignment of the ports and creating this aggravating problem. anyone know if other v8's have this problem or is it just mopar big blocks? why is it so common with our engines?
It's simple math. Angles change as blocks are decked,heads are milled and who knows if someone didn't already cut the intake... 
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Re: Oil Consumption Culprit Found!!!
[Re: repad]
#877760
12/12/10 11:01 PM
12/12/10 11:01 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880
Out in Left Field, NY
bobs66440
OP
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Quote:
Quote: Do you guys think that this could be responsible for that much oil usage? This is the last thing to try before going the rebuild route, which I hate to do because it runs so good...I don't want to open a can of worms (and my wallet).
Not to be a wise a$$ but you've already opened a can of worms. You know where this is giong from this piont, just save yourself the grief of tearing it down in the car, pull it, inspect everything and when you find out how worn it really is, rebuild it. Hey, its winter, what else do you have to do? I'll be tearing down another one myself in a few weeks.
Well, my main issue with the engine is the oil consumption. It runs very well and otherwise I'm happy. As it stands now this fix (if it works) will cost me almost nothing as I got the gaskets with the car, just a few hours labor. A rebuild will cost me $3000-$3500 and a lot more labor and headaches. My finances dictate that since this is a summer weekend driver, I'll opt for almost free if I can get away with it. If it doesn't work, well, no great loss.
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Re: Oil Consumption Culprit Found?
[Re: bboogieart]
#877765
12/13/10 11:22 AM
12/13/10 11:22 AM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880
Out in Left Field, NY
bobs66440
OP
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Quote:
I've been thinking and it seems no one has asked where a quart of oil per 200 miles is going. That much oil would cause the plugs to foul real fast, a big cloud of smoke should be following you every where, and the motor won't run right. The O. P. says the motor runs fine. Is there a quart of oil on the ground or sitting under the intake? That is a lot of oil, where is it going? Are you putting in 5 or 6 quarts to begin with? Is you dip stick accurate? A lot of good info on sealing the intake, but is this the real problem?
Those are all good questions and ones I've asked myself many times.
Many things don't make sense or act as if they should. It does run really good except it starts hard when it's hot. It does smoke some under heavy acceleration but mostly when I let off the gas. But I agree, there should be a cloud of smoke all the time. It leaks virtually no oil, no puddles anywhere. I've pulled the plugs a few times and there is some fouling but not like you would think. As far as oil capacity, there is some question because I have never been able to identify the oil pan I have (maybe someone can help)
The sump depth is the same as the stock pan I think (5-1/4" approx.) but the rear part is much deeper (2-3/4" approx.). I installed a new 440 dip stick and it takes about 7 qts. with filter to get it to the full line. In theory it shouldn't matter how deep the pan is as long as the oil is at the correct level in relation to the crank right? My first thought was that I was overfilling it, so I let it go below the "1 qt. low" mark but it just kept dropping. I was afraid of running it out of oil so I filled it back up. A sign of overfilling is foaming of the oil while running which I checked but it looked good when I pulled the dip stick. Believe me, it has me baffled too. I've tried all types of PCV and breather arrangements, new valve stem seals, etc. and nothing has made a difference. It's either the intake gaskets or a rebuild...
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Re: Oil Consumption Culprit Found?
[Re: JohnRR]
#877767
12/13/10 12:34 PM
12/13/10 12:34 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880
Out in Left Field, NY
bobs66440
OP
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Quote:
Does it puff alot out the valve cover breather after it has warmed up ?
You have a lot of oil around the intake ports , it really shouldn't be on either side of the valley when you pull the intake if it were sealed well.
Are you sure it's a qt in 200 miles ?
It has some blowby but not excessive unles you really rev it, then it blows out pretty good. I think there's a lot of oil around the ports because it wasn't sealing. I'm positive it's 1 qt/200 miles (according to my odometer which is accurate as far as I can tell).
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Re: Oil Consumption Culprit Found?
[Re: bobs66440]
#877768
12/13/10 12:58 PM
12/13/10 12:58 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,073
Niles , Ohio
therocks
oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
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oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,073
Niles , Ohio
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Its easy to seal the 4 corners and the flats under the hold downs.Before you install the valley pan just put a thin bead where the hold downs go on the block and I just put a small bead at the 4 corners where the tray meets the head.Install the valley pan and the hold downs and intake and you are done.My last one was on 10 years and never leaked.Only reason I redid it was I went to aluminum heads.I use antisieze on all the bolts.Never had oil migrate up them and they will always come out easy. Rocky
Chrysler Firepower
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Re: Oil Consumption Culprit Found?
[Re: bobs66440]
#877769
12/13/10 01:42 PM
12/13/10 01:42 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,020
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,020
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Quote:
Does it puff alot out the valve cover breather after it has warmed up ?
You have a lot of oil around the intake ports , it really shouldn't be on either side of the valley when you pull the intake if it were sealed well.
Are you sure it's a qt in 200 miles ?
It has some blowby but not excessive unles you really rev it, then it blows out pretty good. I think there's a lot of oil around the ports because it wasn't sealing. I'm positive it's 1 qt/200 miles (according to my odometer which is accurate as far as I can tell).
What's the mileage on the motor ? sounds like you are still going to be using oil after you fix that leak , it might be getting time to bite the bullet and rebuild it , or at least freshen, it if possible.
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Re: Oil Consumption Culprit Found?
[Re: JohnRR]
#877770
12/13/10 02:25 PM
12/13/10 02:25 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880
Out in Left Field, NY
bobs66440
OP
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OP
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Does it puff alot out the valve cover breather after it has warmed up ?
You have a lot of oil around the intake ports , it really shouldn't be on either side of the valley when you pull the intake if it were sealed well.
Are you sure it's a qt in 200 miles ?
It has some blowby but not excessive unles you really rev it, then it blows out pretty good. I think there's a lot of oil around the ports because it wasn't sealing. I'm positive it's 1 qt/200 miles (according to my odometer which is accurate as far as I can tell).
What's the mileage on the motor ? sounds like you are still going to be using oil after you fix that leak , it might be getting time to bite the bullet and rebuild it , or at least freshen, it if possible.
I'm not sure of the mileage as it's not the original motor, but I'm sure it's been a long time since it's last rebuild...if ever. I don't doubt it could benefit from a rebuild, but since I put so few miles on it I would rather put the money in a new interior if I can get the oil usage to a manageable level. We'll see when I get it back together.
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Re: Oil Consumption Culprit Found?
[Re: bobs66440]
#877772
12/13/10 09:52 PM
12/13/10 09:52 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
Striving for excellence
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Striving for excellence
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
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Those are all good questions and ones I've asked myself many times.
Many things don't make sense or act as if they should. It does run really good except it starts hard when it's hot. It does smoke some under heavy acceleration but mostly when I let off the gas. But I agree, there should be a cloud of smoke all the time. It leaks virtually no oil, no puddles anywhere. I've pulled the plugs a few times and there is some fouling but not like you would think. Believe me, it has me baffled too. I've tried all types of PCV and breather arrangements, (quote) Man, THIS is CREEPY. Its as if I was writing this VERY thing about MY Charger. I have a few small drips from the engine though. My car uses oil, but since I dont drive it that often, I cant accurately say how much. Mine smokes on full throttle, but when I rev the motor in neutral, its not oil smoke. It clears out quickly and smells like gasoline. Add to that that there are NO oil specs at the back of the car, a symptom that often accompanies cars that burn oil. I bought a rebuild kit for the 850, and I hope to go through the carb in the next 2 weeks.
Good luck with your car, I hope our experiences and efforts can help each other out!
Last edited by Frankenduster; 12/14/10 12:13 AM.
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Re: Oil Consumption Culprit Found?
[Re: BSB67]
#877773
12/13/10 10:12 PM
12/13/10 10:12 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880
Out in Left Field, NY
bobs66440
OP
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Joined: Mar 2010
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Out in Left Field, NY
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Quote:
One step at a time. Get it back together and see how it runs, just don't get too optimistic.
Yeah, I learned not to get too excited. I was ecstatic when I saw how bad the valve seals were...but no go...oh well, it is what it is...
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Re: Oil Consumption Culprit Found?
[Re: Kern Dog]
#877774
12/13/10 10:18 PM
12/13/10 10:18 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880
Out in Left Field, NY
bobs66440
OP
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Out in Left Field, NY
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Quote:
I have a few small drips from the sngine though. ...Good luck with your car, I hope our experiences and efforts can help each other out!
Thanks. I get a few drops on the floor after a week or so too but nothing that means anything (no puddles). I'll let you know how it turns out.
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Re: Oil Consumption Culprit Found?
[Re: bobs66440]
#877775
12/21/10 11:19 PM
12/21/10 11:19 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880
Out in Left Field, NY
bobs66440
OP
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Out in Left Field, NY
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Well, the verdict is in...I drove the Charger to work today (100 miles round trip) with the new intake gaskets and...SUCCESS!!! It worked!! Normally it would have used 1/2 quart and this trip it used ZERO!!  I'm very happy and thank you to everyone for your help and suggestions!!  This is a great Christmas present!! Now I can use the cash to redo the interior! JohnRR and BSB67 were right. There weren't enough gaskets to take up the space and oil and vacuum were leaking. Unfortunately it's not running as well now, I think due to the fact that the carbs were adjusted for a lean condition...now there's no leak so it's running a bit rich and blubbering a little but that's a relatively easy fix...and it's certainly driveable. I ended up using one .030 fiber gasket on each side of the pan with Hi-Tack to hold them in place. I also put a bead of Ultra Black silicone on the end rails and corners. I also smeared a very thin coat of the silicine on the very inside sealing edges of the heads and gaskets, trying not to get it near the intake ports. One lesson I'm taking from this is there isn't necessarily one definite gasket setup that can cover all situations. You will have to experiment to see which will work. It's probably best - as was mentioned - to have the thick and thin gaskets at hand to be ready. Thanks again!! 
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Re: Oil Consumption Culprit Found!!!!!
[Re: Kern Dog]
#877777
12/22/10 08:03 AM
12/22/10 08:03 AM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880
Out in Left Field, NY
bobs66440
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880
Out in Left Field, NY
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Quote:
Way to go, HELL Yeah!
I am hoping to report some similar good news with my car, another Charger with a big block. I too have had the oil consumption problem and pulled my intake to take a look. I found that one of the paper gaskets had torn near an intake port. putting it all back together resulted in no change.
I talked with an extremely helpful man at Hensley Performance today. I have a few other areas to check, and I too will post my findings. I am quite happy for you, as I am sympathetic to your situation. These cars are far too nice to just sit in the garage.
Thanks for the kind words. Hopefully you can get it fixed soon! Let us know how you make out.
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