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Cam talk #865305
11/28/10 03:58 AM
11/28/10 03:58 AM

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What would the difference be with a cam at 108* LSA and one with 112* LSA? The motor being the exact same and the cam specs being the same except the LSA. What difference will it make to the motor and the performance on the car?

Re: Cam talk [Re: ] #865306
11/28/10 11:43 AM
11/28/10 11:43 AM
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602heavy Offline
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Take these two cams , both have exact same duration @ seat , although one is ground on a 112* lobe sep the other a 108*..........

Cam #1
280int/280ex (seat to seat)
112 lsa/112icl (installed straight up)
IO/28 IC/72
EO/72 EC/28
overlap @ seat 58*

Cam #2
280int/280ex (seat to seat)
108 lsa/108icl (installed straight up)
IO/32 IC68
EO/68 EC32
overlap @ seat 64*

As you can see the #1 cam opens intake valve LATER BTDC & closes LATER ATDC , #2 engine will suffer more intake charge contamination due the extra 6 degrees of overlap......#2 cam will close intake valve earlier increasing cylinder presuure.

There's a lot more to it than this , hopefully you get the basics.


Last edited by 602heavy; 11/28/10 11:55 AM.
Re: Cam talk [Re: 602heavy] #865307
11/28/10 12:26 PM
11/28/10 12:26 PM
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SF,I went from a 112 LSA cam,to a 108 LSA cam. Also increased the duration by 22 deg. on the intake,10 deg. on the exhaust...BIG DIFFERENCE,makes MORE torque,and idles quite a bit rougher! My 3500lb. GTX picked up .3 in the 1/4 mile,and 2 mph!

Re: Cam talk [Re: Labratt] #865308
11/28/10 12:43 PM
11/28/10 12:43 PM
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Same seat to seat..... but different power bands..

Re: Cam talk [Re: emarine01] #865309
11/28/10 02:32 PM
11/28/10 02:32 PM
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Pacnorthcuda Offline
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A narrow LSA (in this case 108) will create more high rpm power, the wider LSA will create more low end torque, all other things being equal.

Re: Cam talk [Re: Pacnorthcuda] #865310
11/28/10 02:40 PM
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Quote:

A narrow LSA (in this case 108) will create more high rpm power, the wider LSA will create more low end torque, all other things being equal.


Rut Row Something dont sound right

Re: Cam talk [Re: emarine01] #865311
11/28/10 02:55 PM
11/28/10 02:55 PM
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Val-haul-ass... eventually
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Quote:

Quote:

A narrow LSA (in this case 108) will create more high rpm power, the wider LSA will create more low end torque, all other things being equal.


Rut Row Something dont sound right





Let me take a shot here...
Wider LSA - better (smoother) idle, will come on cleaner at a lower RPM, won't make as much torque, may make more HP at peak (not a sure thing, though), less cranking pressure.

Narrower LSA - rougher idle, more sensitive to exhaust back pressure, comes on harder once above the point where the engine cleans up, may not make as much peak HP (again, not a sure thing), more cranking pressure.


Re: Cam talk [Re: BradH] #865312
11/28/10 02:58 PM
11/28/10 02:58 PM
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Re: Cam talk [Re: S/ST 3040] #865313
11/28/10 03:07 PM
11/28/10 03:07 PM
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Quote:




Hey.... quit hiding behind the popcorn....

Re: Cam talk [Re: emarine01] #865314
11/28/10 05:33 PM
11/28/10 05:33 PM
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Brian Hafliger Offline
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Generalizing cam behavior is wrong IMO. I've done a few engines where I started with the customers cam he picked out and then changed cams with one I pick out and I have to say I've been surprised more than once in what I've found.
I've seen tighter lca's broaden the HP and Tq curve...I've seen more lift add TQ below TQ peak...I've seen just 6° of duration of the same lobe family add 20HP.
And I've seen both .010 of lash and .035+ lash make great power. Go figure....


Brian Hafliger
Re: Cam talk [Re: Brian Hafliger] #865315
11/28/10 06:14 PM
11/28/10 06:14 PM
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602heavy Offline
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Area under the curve.....lash/duration @ .004/.020/.050/.200 are the #s we should be looking at when comparing camshafts , lobe sep being the least important.................


Last edited by 602heavy; 11/28/10 06:16 PM.
Re: Cam talk [Re: 602heavy] #865316
11/28/10 07:15 PM
11/28/10 07:15 PM
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The ability to maximize air/fuel flow thru a engine is truly an ever evolving art form, wile some changes are predictable, sometimes not, thats half the fun

Re: Cam talk [Re: ] #865317
11/28/10 07:41 PM
11/28/10 07:41 PM
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Quote:

What would the difference be with a cam at 108* LSA and one with 112* LSA? The motor being the exact same and the cam specs being the same except the LSA. What difference will it make to the motor and the performance on the car?





The only answer to this "general" question is a "general" answer. Simply put the overlap decreases with the increased LSA. Decreasing the overlap "generally" increases bottom end torque and HP BUT also decreases peak torque and peak HP. The idle will smooth out.

HOWEVER, the cam profile you're comparing may already have a low enough overlap to idle smoothly and provide sufficient low end torque and HP. Increasing the LSA would yeild no improvement what-so-ever.

Re: Cam talk [Re: Pacnorthcuda] #865318
11/28/10 10:25 PM
11/28/10 10:25 PM
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Quote:

A narrow LSA (in this case 108) will create more high rpm power, the wider LSA will create more low end torque, all other things being equal.


That may apply to some of the brands of motor with non true wedge heads, not to Mopars, even Hemi motors
edit: Stick shift drag motors like wider seperation usually, more power up top, automatic trans Mopar cars with stock type heads like less LSA and that ends up making more torque and power down lower in the usable RPM that the heads will work in

Last edited by Cab_Burge; 11/28/10 11:05 PM.

Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Cam talk [Re: Cab_Burge] #865319
11/28/10 10:28 PM
11/28/10 10:28 PM
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.............lobe seperation being the END result.


Re: Cam talk [Re: Cab_Burge] #865320
11/28/10 10:36 PM
11/28/10 10:36 PM
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LCA is all relative to the amount of duration. More duration with the same LCA = more overlap. You will see as the duration starts to get large most times the LCA will be dialed in wider as well. By altering the installed intake centerline you could have the intake closing point at the same location with both cams mentioned. Many variables here. Cams and converters. Get em right and your a Hero. Get em wrong and your a Zero.
Doug

Re: Cam talk [Re: dvw] #865321
12/04/10 01:17 AM
12/04/10 01:17 AM
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Quote:

LCA is all relative to the amount of duration. More duration with the same LCA = more overlap. You will see as the duration starts to get large most times the LCA will be dialed in wider as well. By altering the installed intake centerline you could have the intake closing point at the same location with both cams mentioned. Many variables here. Cams and converters. Get em right and your a Hero. Get em wrong and your a Zero.
Doug






Example...

General consensus by many is to widen lobe centre when running nitrous , this hinges on the fact tight lobe centres will have some of that nitrous go straight out the tail pipes @ overlap , the reason for the 'wider' lobe centre is to increase duration on exhaust lobe , take a look @ these two camshafts , all valve events are identical except exhaust opening..............

260/260 110 lsa/110 icl
IO 20/IC 60
EO 60/EC 20
40 * overlap

260/268 112 lsa/110 icl
IO 20/IC 60
EO 68/EC 20
40 degrees overlap..............

Overlap is identical on these two camshafts , lobe centre was spread in order to lengthen exhaust duration (nitrous) , get valve events were they should be & LSA will follow.


Last edited by 602heavy; 12/04/10 01:23 AM.
Re: Cam talk [Re: ] #865322
12/04/10 04:47 AM
12/04/10 04:47 AM
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I don't buy into the "magic" cam hype. All cams have trade-offs. Wider LSA cams are usually installed to take advantage of an earlier exhaust opening point and to reduce overlap. Most common reasons are forced induction, Nitrous, or to crutch a poor exhaust system. Also, wider LSA cams (in theory) have a wider power curve, but less peak torque. Narrow LSA cams increase overlap, generally have higher peak torque, and a narrower power band.

Here is a link to CompCams web page on LSA:
http://www.compcams.com/Pages/413/cam-timing-lobe-separation-angle.aspx

Re: Cam talk [Re: 451Mopar] #865323
12/04/10 08:40 AM
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What about the same cam grind with small cubes vs big cubes ...


Mopar Performance
Re: Cam talk [Re: moparniac] #865324
12/04/10 10:19 AM
12/04/10 10:19 AM
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port size is important. A very large engine like a 535bb mopar with poor flowing 906 ported heads will swallow most all the cam you can throw at it and it won't pull power past 5800/6000. Try that with a 1970 ford boss 302 (huge Big block type ports)and you have an engine that won't get out of its own way till 6500 rpm. BUT, with the right cam it will make 650 hp at 9500! That was done in a HotRod article back in the seventy s. All they did was blue print the motor, no head porting, put in a big rollercam, and went modified class racing. AS I recall they were shifting that deal close to 10,000 rpm with stock ports.
The 906 head motor has so much port velocity it is hard to screw up with cam specs that are off. I went from a 590 cam installed at 108 to 112 and I didn't see any difference! A 286 @ .050 roller with .750 lift went in, and it only raised the power peak about 300 rpm, but the motor responded with a 5 mph gain in the quarter.
The Boss motor would be very touchy about late intake closing, because there is no velocity to help cover it up till very high rpm. It also will need a lot less duration for the same rpm. The 286 duration cam in that motor might even be too much at 9500, because the ports flow so well they don't need the extra time to fill the cylinder.

Last edited by gregsdart; 12/04/10 10:33 AM.
Re: Cam talk [Re: gregsdart] #865325
12/04/10 11:51 AM
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Quote:

port size is important. A very large engine like a 535bb mopar with poor flowing 906 ported heads will swallow most all the cam you can throw at it and it won't pull power past 5800/6000. Try that with a 1970 ford boss 302 (huge Big block type ports)and you have an engine that won't get out of its own way till 6500 rpm. BUT, with the right cam it will make 650 hp at 9500! That was done in a HotRod article back in the seventy s. All they did was blue print the motor, no head porting, put in a big rollercam, and went modified class racing. AS I recall they were shifting that deal close to 10,000 rpm with stock ports.
The 906 head motor has so much port velocity it is hard to screw up with cam specs that are off. I went from a 590 cam installed at 108 to 112 and I didn't see any difference! A 286 @ .050 roller with .750 lift went in, and it only raised the power peak about 300 rpm, but the motor responded with a 5 mph gain in the quarter.
The Boss motor would be very touchy about late intake closing, because there is no velocity to help cover it up till very high rpm. It also will need a lot less duration for the same rpm. The 286 duration cam in that motor might even be too much at 9500, because the ports flow so well they don't need the extra time to fill the cylinder.




Greg,
Nice reply, very informative. You're absolutely right on cylinder fill and duration. The cam out of my Hemi99 engine has 20* more duration on the exhaust side. They are trying to help the poor exhaust port with it's puny(compared to the intake) valve keep up with the huge port and valve of the intake.

The valve is also being lifted 1.050" so the efficient, huge intake port with a 2.55 valve diameter doesn't need a ton of intake duration to cylinder fill. The exhaust is a different story as it's an afterthought in a pro stock head and needs all the help it can get!

The cam in your 440-1 headed engine probably has more duration @.050 on the intake than my PS Hemi!!


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Re: Cam talk [Re: Get-X] #865326
12/04/10 12:28 PM
12/04/10 12:28 PM

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Great info coming.

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