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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#818199
10/30/10 12:36 PM
10/30/10 12:36 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,152
Central NC
gch
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,152
Central NC
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How many miles on your 440? Have you done a compression and leakdown test?
You can do this so many different ways it is easy to get confused.
If your shortblock is sound swap heads and maybe a cam and intake.
Re-ring and bearing yours with above mods.
Full blown rebuild.
I would examine your shortblock carefully and see if you can reuse it since $$ is a factor.
On piston choice for what you are doing,cast is fine,hyper is a good upgrade for not much more money.
Quench?Fine if you got it,fine if you don't.Will it let you run a higher compression on a lower octane?Yes.Is it critical for your build?Not really.A true 9.0-1 motor will run fine on 89 octane without it.Recurve your distributor for best results.
Heads??Alum are great.Run higher compression on less octane and generally flow much better than stock for extra power.Single best upgrade to any street motor IMO.
OR you can pick up a set of used 452's(hard seats)on here with some port work already done for less than you can rebuild yours.You can also mill them for more compression if needed.
Take any assembled head you buy to a mochinist to have them checked out prior to running.Save lots of headache this way.
Exhaust,HP manifolds for c bodies are plentifull and reasonable.Hedman shorties and a mini starter are a good no hassle swap.Both will make more power than lo-po logs.
Intake,a used performer or ch4b is affordable and readily available.
Carb,for what you are doing 600-650cfm is plenty and will be very responsive in your operating range.I have better luck with holleys.A thermoquad would be the s**t.
Cam,something short duration(210-215@.050)and you will all the low end torque for cruising and acceleration with tall gears.
Lots of ways to skin a cat.Get a plan before you start and match everything together.
If you don't have electronic ignition,GET IT.
Ken is a great guy and won't sell you something you don't need.Havent talked to him in a while.He is as honest as they come.
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: JohnRR]
#818200
10/30/10 12:43 PM
10/30/10 12:43 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,319
Prospect, PA
BSB67
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,319
Prospect, PA
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Quote:
Quote:
If he can get away with it re-use the stock pistons and home hone the block, re-ring/bearing it and go. 
how did that work out for you on the last one ? 
Or the one before that. 
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: BSB67]
#818201
10/30/10 01:15 PM
10/30/10 01:15 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
If he can get away with it re-use the stock pistons and home hone the block, re-ring/bearing it and go.
how did that work out for you on the last one ?
Or the one before that.
i didn't do the last one. And it broke a valve. The pistons, walls, crank and all still look brand new.. except the one w/ a hole in it.
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: BSB67]
#818203
10/30/10 04:08 PM
10/30/10 04:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
Have you determined the root cause of the valve failure?
yeah the valve broke... not sure why yet. I'll have the shop check it out when they fix the one seat. F'ing sux I can tell ya that.
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: RUNCHARGER]
#818205
10/31/10 12:18 PM
10/31/10 12:18 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 15,487
Florida
scratchnfotraction
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 15,487
Florida
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i go the short headers and big pipes the short dur/high lift cam ch4 and 650 carb and roll with the stock low stall Tc and the 3.23 gears you not raceing the c-body just need some torque to get rolling I am happy to have a stock 440 and not need the re-ring or rebuild i shaved 40 foot of motorhome,added the FMVB,3.91sg,center dump mannys,650 spredbore holley/stock intake in my 85 truck I will upgrade a cam to work with the low CR and cheap gas,like a whiplash cam with early intake closeing to build cyl pressure and not kill torque like said,more than one way to skin that cat
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: scratchnfotraction]
#818206
10/31/10 02:54 PM
10/31/10 02:54 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,825
Sk. Canada
RemCharger
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,825
Sk. Canada
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Quote:
i go the short headers and big pipes
the short dur/high lift cam
ch4 and 650 carb and roll with the stock low stall Tc and the 3.23 gears
you not raceing the c-body just need some torque to get rolling
I am happy to have a stock 440 and not need the re-ring or rebuild
i shaved 40 foot of motorhome,added the FMVB,3.91sg,center dump mannys,650 spredbore holley/stock intake in my 85 truck
I will upgrade a cam to work with the low CR and cheap gas,like a whiplash cam with early intake closeing to build cyl pressure and not kill torque
like said,more than one way to skin that cat
After reading the whole thing, I agree with the last post.
Install Cam,
freshen/ replace heads,
intake and good carb,
decent ignition timing mods.
A whole botom end go-thru is probably redundant for this build.
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: RemCharger]
#818207
11/12/10 12:54 PM
11/12/10 12:54 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 395
Knoxville, TN, USA
mantonas
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 395
Knoxville, TN, USA
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I think I am going for the bottom end rebuild no matter what, so that is a moot point. The question is, while doing a bottom end rebuild, should I be incorporating quench, and if the answer to that is yes, then the question of what to do about the heads has to be answered. Based on the costs of reworking my open chambered heads and combining them with a quench dome style piston to get quench, it's probably about the same costs as the Stealth heads or maybe more, so the Stealth heads seem like the right choice.
However, this is all based on the fact that I can't get a set of cast iron closed chambered heads, fully rebuilt, for much less than the Stealth heads. This may not be true; I have been poking around a little, and it seems like I may be able to get a set of the older 516 closed chambered heads for a more reasonable price.
Here's the question: what about a quench engine using rebuilt 516s with the larger size exhaust valves installed? If I built a quench engine with these, with no porting or bowl blending or significant milling, versus a non-quench engine with essentially stock replacement pistons and my rebuilt 906s heads, which combination would produce more power? Assume the same intake and exhaust with a mild one or two steps up from stock cam.
To sum up, the choices are:
1. Quench engine with flattop pistons using 516 heads unmodified except for upgrading the exhaust valves to 1.74 in, or
2. Non-quench engine using stock replacement-shape pistons with freshened 906 heads to give the same compression ratio as what it had when it came off the assembly line.
Would there be a noticeable power difference between the two, and if so, which would be better? (This is like a "quench vs. flow" death match!)
69 Chrysler 300 Convertible
77 Chrysler New Yorker Brougham 2-dr
03 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: 4BBodies]
#818211
11/12/10 05:08 PM
11/12/10 05:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,094
A Banana Republic near you.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,094
A Banana Republic near you.
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Quote:
I agree with 2boltmain, this guy doesn't need anything overly fancy or pricey. It is possible to rebuild an engine correctly without spending a fortune. Have the basic machine work done, get a decent cam (like the Summit mentioned above) and put it together. It's a 440 for Chr$*^s sake, it will pull with one spark plug wire unhooked!
What is your DEFINITION of CORRECTLY ???
One problem, there is no REPLACEMENT piston for a 440, he either ends up with lower compression, piston .090ish in the hole, or too much compression , a piston about .020ish in the hole.
He wants more HP and he wants to keep many of the factory installed parts , meaning NO HEADERS .. you aren't going to do that by lowering the compression then putting in a bigger cam , at least not easily.
A quench build with open chambers heads is expensive and not what everyone really needs. I just finished up one, it's a lot of work, if he can find a decent set of 915's he'll be dollars ahead or throw some alum heads on it and can get away with the higher compression.
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: JohnRR]
#818212
11/12/10 06:48 PM
11/12/10 06:48 PM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,791
Holland MI Ottawa
2boltmain
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,791
Holland MI Ottawa
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There are tons of posts on moparts of smog compression 360s 440s and 400s running in the 13s and 12s. If thats the case than the OP should buy the piston with the lower compression height that is in his budget. There always remains the chance his bores are still within spec and in that case the oem pistons are reusable. Cam it like a big ole motorhome with a true dual exh and traditional turbo mufflers and call it good.
Keep old mopars alive.
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: mantonas]
#818213
11/12/10 09:12 PM
11/12/10 09:12 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,319
Prospect, PA
BSB67
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,319
Prospect, PA
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Quote:
I think I am going for the bottom end rebuild no matter what, so that is a moot point. The question is, while doing a bottom end rebuild, should I be incorporating quench, and if the answer to that is yes, then the question of what to do about the heads has to be answered. Based on the costs of reworking my open chambered heads and combining them with a quench dome style piston to get quench, it's probably about the same costs as the Stealth heads or maybe more, so the Stealth heads seem like the right choice.
However, this is all based on the fact that I can't get a set of cast iron closed chambered heads, fully rebuilt, for much less than the Stealth heads. This may not be true; I have been poking around a little, and it seems like I may be able to get a set of the older 516 closed chambered heads for a more reasonable price.
Here's the question: what about a quench engine using rebuilt 516s with the larger size exhaust valves installed? If I built a quench engine with these, with no porting or bowl blending or significant milling, versus a non-quench engine with essentially stock replacement pistons and my rebuilt 906s heads, which combination would produce more power? Assume the same intake and exhaust with a mild one or two steps up from stock cam.
To sum up, the choices are:
1. Quench engine with flattop pistons using 516 heads unmodified except for upgrading the exhaust valves to 1.74 in, or
2. Non-quench engine using stock replacement-shape pistons with freshened 906 heads to give the same compression ratio as what it had when it came off the assembly line.
Would there be a noticeable power difference between the two, and if so, which would be better? (This is like a "quench vs. flow" death match!)
Building a flat top piston quench motor for use with 516 or 915 will result in the CR to high for pump gas.
If you're set on the short block rebuild, my opinion is you build a zero deck (or close)flat top piston motor. Then you have some meaningful options. Go non-quench/906 for a low/mid 9s CR, or quench with Stealths or Edelbrocks with 10 CR. You can do this easy enough, you just need to keep an eye on the final combustion chamber volume, valve relief volume, and gasket thickness.
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: BSB67]
#818214
11/12/10 11:35 PM
11/12/10 11:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 395
Knoxville, TN, USA
mantonas
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 395
Knoxville, TN, USA
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Why would the CR be too high for pump gas on a quench motor built with 915s or 516s, but not too high for pump gas on a quench motor built with Stealth or Edelbrock heads?
69 Chrysler 300 Convertible
77 Chrysler New Yorker Brougham 2-dr
03 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: RUNCHARGER]
#818216
11/12/10 11:49 PM
11/12/10 11:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
ScottSmith_Harms
Mr Wizzard
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Mr Wizzard
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
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Here's a real world big block street build I just went through Big Block Build Mine is a little more exotic than yours due to the unique induction setup, but underneath it's just a mild big block pump gas street build. It would likely make as much or more power with a good single 4 dual plane intake and a good 4 barrel carb. Our goals were similar, mild pump gas low maintenance BB build with a little extra kick. I went with some optional expensive parts in the name of durability, but you could make due with less expensive parts and get to the same numbers with ease. - 426 Cubic inches
- Stock stroke crank
- Stock rods rebushed and resized
- Custom forged Diamond pistons resulting in a true 9.5:1 compression
- Stock #577 closed chamber heads with bigger valves and pocket porting
- Hydraulic Roller Cam
- Stock Oil Pan & Pickup
- Will Run Stock Exhaust Manifolds
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: BSB67]
#818217
11/13/10 12:00 AM
11/13/10 12:00 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041
Lincoln Nebraska
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As said the alum wicks away heat faster so will support more CR wo pinging and Quench will support more CR wo pinging (but for different reasons. I'd go alum + quench & mill the pistons (not the deck under the quench flat) to get the SCR where you want it & it depends on your cam choice. Yes it gets complicated/timeconsuming/expensive to get it spot on & to get up & running & to avoid long term down time (very common mistake) there is a very good case for a fast rebuild & get you some seat time then you can take your time w a much better eng coming together hidden in your garage & you might be able to take some bets when it's done/in as your buddies wont know what hit em
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: 440 Rebuild Advice
[Re: mantonas]
#818218
11/13/10 10:45 AM
11/13/10 10:45 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,323
NY NY
340duster340
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,323
NY NY
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because its a driver, dont go nuts, you'll spend money on parts you dont need. do a semi-stock rebuild, mild cam, rebuild the stock heads, alum intake...keep it simple. i would get the hi-po manifolds only because you'll already have your old ones unbolted and its a simple upgrade that will make a difference.
1966 Dart GT
...down to only 1 mopar for the first time in 15 years!
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