Fuel Injection vs. Carburetor BB
#752079
07/19/10 12:42 AM
07/19/10 12:42 AM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 583 San Antonio, TX
CurYellowBird
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 583
San Antonio, TX
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I'm looking for mainly opinions on this thread, but also the pros and cons of these two setups.
Of course costs is the REALLY big one and which is more simplistic. Seems like you could always take the costs of an EFI system, get a decent carb and put the rest of the money towards other parts of the car.
Any opinions/info is appreciated.
Project War Bird:
1971 Plymouth Roadrunner
383 4 speed with air conditioning
GY3 Curious yellow
All original
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Re: Fuel Injection vs. Carburetor BB
[Re: CurYellowBird]
#752080
07/19/10 01:15 AM
07/19/10 01:15 AM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,480 Canada
CrAzYMoPaRGuY
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,480
Canada
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Drivability is the big issue as far as I'm concerned. The cost is the big "con". A well set up car with a carb or two that actually RUNS WELL would be the best comparison, but many guys who have drivability problems with poor running carb setups will let their enthusiasm wane towards their car because they don't enjoy it like they should. IMO anyways... Top end all out power will be very close, maybe some low and midrange torque numbers would lean towards the EFI. Cold start drivability between the two would be noticeable too IMO.
CrAzYMoPaRGuY
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Re: Fuel Injection vs. Carburetor BB
[Re: CrAzYMoPaRGuY]
#752081
07/19/10 01:20 AM
07/19/10 01:20 AM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 583 San Antonio, TX
CurYellowBird
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mopar
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OP
mopar
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San Antonio, TX
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I tested a 2 barrel holley projection kit on my sbc 350 that had a decent summit cam and the other aftermarket goodies. The thing was a complete pain in the a** from the start, ran rich, and wouldn't tune well with the analog computer.
It had excellent torque response, but even while tuning it, it would stay rich. I think the biggest issue was it was an open circuit EFI and not a closed circuit with all the sensors and what not.
MPG didn't seem to change at all. If anything I swapped back to my edelbrock carb cause the EFI was putting my MPG into the ground.
Project War Bird:
1971 Plymouth Roadrunner
383 4 speed with air conditioning
GY3 Curious yellow
All original
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Re: Fuel Injection vs. Carburetor BB
[Re: CurYellowBird]
#752084
07/19/10 05:06 AM
07/19/10 05:06 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 11,179 Atco NJ
DJVCuda
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 11,179
Atco NJ
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I just put the EZ-EFI system on my tunnel ram. on the electrical side there were 2 sensor connections on the car that were not on the throttle body, water temp, and O2. on the electrical side there was +/- and key power aside from the fuel pump. I elected to run a new fuel system, including tank mounted pump. Cost? I didnt have to touch the intake, just unbolt the carbs and replace - but dont just think of the cost of the carbs, you'd have to include the jet kit, air bleeds, accel pump kit, wideband O2 sensor, carb book, and the time to make all the necessary changes several times a second to get a carb anywhere near close to where these suckers run. I can only speak to the EZ system, as it's the one I picked to go with, I didnt want to design a system ( cheaper) or map out my own fuel and timing curves ( more expensive) I wanted to control my own timing and make some adjustments, but not need a laptop to even get moving, or after a significant change in the engine. I have about 1000 miles on it after several long car event weekends and my exhaust tips are clean, the smell does not kill you from behind the car, and i am getting better mileage... I'd seriously consider more of these setups on my other cars.
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Re: Fuel Injection vs. Carburetor BB
[Re: 71TA]
#752087
07/19/10 08:09 AM
07/19/10 08:09 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 11,179 Atco NJ
DJVCuda
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 11,179
Atco NJ
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Quote:
That EZ-EFI looks nice. I was also looking at EFI for my BB but because of the $ I bought a new 830CFM annular, mechanical secondary Speed Demon (with all replaceable jets). Using the LMI A/F meter to properly tune it, it starts better than my modern daily driver. That LMI IS the tool that s required to setup a carb. Reading plugs and other old school methods are JUST that.
while i could not find the 830 annular I found the 850 speed demon
$450
I looked up holley parts since BG's are not listed
jet kit - 50 gasket kit ( for jet changes) - 42 acc pump tuning kit - 120 air bleed assortment kit - 195 LM-2 - single channel O2 sensor - 399
TOTAL - 1256
Now - the carb choice could go another 2-400 bux depending on your selection and the EZ system is on summit for 1749
Both fuel systems are omitted to keep it simple.
If you went with a holley ultra HP 950 ( 800 bux ) the cost get closer and closer... ( 1600 )
not including the built in rev limiter, programmable electric fan switch, and ac idle bump the $150 - $ 500 difference can even get closer from ebag...( 1649 from a quick search)
now your down to $50 - $400 price difference. and remember the EZ Throttle body is 1000 CFM!
\ lets not forget that you set that carb up in the spring ( 50 degrees) and now its 100 out in the dead of summer.... will you jet it to perfection every 20 degree temp change? how about atmospheric changes? how about driving in the mountains? do you jet lean, rich, or stop, pull the bowls and make a change in the middle?
I can change it all from the drivers seat - and if I dont want to touch a thing i can do that too. the system monitors make changes, it checks the O2 sensor and corrects, noting the correction for next time ( self learning )
I was a carb guy through and trough, but after watching this thing learn how to work 2000 CFM on top of a stocker 360 and have better mileage, better driveability, and better manners I'm sold!
I have not even checked it at the dyno or track y et, but I should not see any major increases unless my carb tuning skills were shot to begin with ( as far as peak power.. but who knows!
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Re: Fuel Injection vs. Carburetor BB
[Re: DJVCuda]
#752088
07/19/10 08:33 AM
07/19/10 08:33 AM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 583 San Antonio, TX
CurYellowBird
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 583
San Antonio, TX
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I plan on driving my 71' roadrunner all the time and probably cross country with some pro touring. Planning a future trip from down here in san antonio, texas up to augusta, maine. Big difference in climates for sure.
Project War Bird:
1971 Plymouth Roadrunner
383 4 speed with air conditioning
GY3 Curious yellow
All original
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Re: Fuel Injection vs. Carburetor BB
[Re: CurYellowBird]
#752089
07/19/10 09:30 AM
07/19/10 09:30 AM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 420 Central Ohio
Ledman_70
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 420
Central Ohio
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Can someone give me a little more info on the LMI a/f meter? Cost? Availability? How it works, etc. I can tune a carb to run decent, but I can't get it to the gnat's ass. I am having the same issue with the 800 dp Holley on my 426 as I had with the 750 sp... there's a slight stumble right off idle. I haven't tried drilling holes in the primary butterflies yet. Thanks
Jeff Adams
64 426 Polara
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Re: Fuel Injection vs. Carburetor BB
[Re: GregCon]
#752091
07/19/10 10:29 AM
07/19/10 10:29 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,481 Mesa, AZ
Pat_Whalen
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,481
Mesa, AZ
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I was planning on going with a megasquirt multiport injection setup on my 440 Ramcharger. (DaytonaTurbo ) I think everyone has a particular set of reasons or requirements that would cause them to choose one over the other. My list of things is: Driveability System feedback Ignition control (power/cruise/economy modes) Modern "feel" No need to "keep in tune". I also have to take into consideration that this truck is my daily driver and also a vehicle that will be used for camping. My current elevation is roughly 1200' AMS, and I could potentially drive in a couple of hours and be pushing close to 7000' AMS. That's not always the best circumstances for running a carb.
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Re: Fuel Injection vs. Carburetor BB
[Re: CurYellowBird]
#752096
07/19/10 01:23 PM
07/19/10 01:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,938 Sonora CA
Mopar_Rich
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,938
Sonora CA
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Quote:
I'm looking for mainly opinions on this thread, but also the pros and cons of these two setups.
Of course costs is the REALLY big one and which is more simplistic. Seems like you could always take the costs of an EFI system, get a decent carb and put the rest of the money towards other parts of the car.
Any opinions/info is appreciated.
CurYellowBird I can answer any/all questions you may have about the FAST EFI systems, but here's a quick overview of the EZ-EFI system(s):
EZ-EFI TB Pros: - Easy to install (bolts on instead of a carb) - No tuning - It works as advertised - Great throttle response - Good drivability, good mileage, good cold start, user can tune the target A/F ratio table as various points (cruise, WOT, etc)
EZ-EFI (TB type) Cons: - Does not control timing (you use a standard distributor and ignition box) - Operates in bank-to-bank mode. Not really a draw back because the injectors are in the throttle body. - Injectors are in TB (wet manifold). Not as "ideal" as port injection. - Injector sizes limit HP to 550-600 HP for a single TB- No problem if you run two TBs or use the EZ port injected system. - Requires an EFI fuel system (but any EFI system would) - Can only drive up to 8 high-Z injectors.
One newer option is the same EZ-EFI ECU but for port injection manifolds. This option gives you more HP capability (8 injectors instead of 4) and the manifold runs dry.
Pricing: The 30226-kit Single EZ TB (no fuel system components) $1689. The 30227-kit (30226 kit + fuel system; pump, filters, regulator, etc.) $1945 The 304155 second TB upgrade kit $850 The 302000 EZ-EFI kit for port injection $825
Hope this helps
www.fastmanefi.com
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Re: Fuel Injection vs. Carburetor BB
[Re: Mopar_Rich]
#752097
07/19/10 02:59 PM
07/19/10 02:59 PM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 583 San Antonio, TX
CurYellowBird
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 583
San Antonio, TX
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Thanks mopar rich! I'm still learning the fuel injection systems as my experience is only with the TBI 2 barrel holley projection system on a sbc. It really had it's flaws but I don't base that experience on all systems. I don't foresee myself making 500hp with the engine build I'm planning for this car. More in the 425hp/475lb. range is what I'm shooting for out of my 383. I do have a complete 440 but I have my own personal reasons for not going with the 440. With the way the price of gas is going and the quality of it, I feel better with the 383. I've got a spare 383 block so I can swap out the numbers one so I can actually put my foot into without fear of breaking original numbers parts. I looked at those parts you listed and is there a kit for a port injection setup rather than a TB setup? I looked at the last set you listed and it looks like just a wiring harness and some computer stuff. Where are the injectors on that TB setup you listed? Are they below those mini fuel rails? Is EZ's EFI systems a closed loop system that uses sensors and what not to do self adjustments rather than having to constantly adjust an analog computer? Please forgive me on my lack of knowledge in this area as some of my questions seem to be a little repetitive. I've got a Barry Grant 750 carb that is one of his first carbs to come out before holley sued him over his "holley look-alike". This is the alternative to using EFI. But after looking at the price of that TB setup from EZ-EFI, I'm starting to lean towards EFI. All the other kits I looked at such as the XFI kit from FAST was around $4500 and others were in the 3-3500 range in price.
Last edited by CurYellowBird; 07/19/10 03:39 PM.
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