Re: 440 Source water pump housing
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#650826
03/25/10 11:27 AM
03/25/10 11:27 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
70Cuda383
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
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is the milodon the one with the straight vanes? if so, then I'm using one and have no issues! I don't remember what water pump I have now, I just know it's a straight vane pump instead of the curved rotors, because I turn my pump backwards and the ones with the curved impeller rotors won't work when it's spun backwards.
**Photobucket sucks**
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Re: 440 Source water pump housing
[Re: Ronnman]
#650832
03/26/10 09:57 AM
03/26/10 09:57 AM
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,968
North Riverside IL & Lowell IN
GTXKen
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,968
North Riverside IL & Lowell IN
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Quote:
Many report problems with this part. See link.
Ron
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,60599.0.html
Link was incomplete, here is the post
As some of you know my Project Car aka the Black Pig was recently completed and i am in the tuning de-bugging stage. I was having some serious heat issues and tried a bunch of things to help cool it down. It has plenty of cooling capacity with a new dual pass aluminum rad so i was pretty sure that wasn't the issue.
The one thing that struck me as odd was the amount of radiant heat coming off the top of the engine....there was a ton of it. I've been around and tuned enough 440's to know that this wasn't normal. I started by replacing the 2000cfm pusher fan with a 3000cfm puller and that seemed to help somewhat but there was still lots of heat on the top end. I suspected the thermostat so i swapped in another one with basicly no change. I verified that both stats were functioning by testing them in boiling water and verified the open temps with my infrared heat gun...both worked fine.
Basicly, it would idle at 190* but out on the road the temps would spike and bounce between 180* and 210* almost instantaneously....like over a 5 second time frame. Normally when engine temps spike out on the road it's an airflow/obstruction issue with the radiator but this was different. I finally reasoned that there was an air/steam pocket in the cooling system and as that pocket moved around and the hot steam hit the water temp sensors it was creating the spiked temps. This made sense and explained why the guages were reading the way they were but didn't explain why the air pockets were forming despite repeated attempts to purge the cooling system. The fact that the top end of the engine was so hot was a clue and i figured that the coolant wasn't being circulated fast enough so it was boiling inside the engine creating the air pockets....but why was this happening ?
So, i'm on the phone discussing this problem with Dwayne @ Porter Racing heads and he's asking the usual questions :
(1) enough rad....yep, dual pass aluminum
(2) thermostat defective...nope, tried 2 of them and both open fully as they should
(3) tuning issues...nope, timing is perfect and jetting is good, if anything it's slightly rich...not lean
(4) vacuum leak....nope, checked that and vacuum is low but rock steady
So as the conversation progresses Dwayne asks me what water pump and housing is on the engine....same one we dynoed the engine with ?
Nope....I upgrade to a fancy aluminum 440Source housing and pump. Dwayne proceeds to groan and suggests that i inspect the housing very closely. Why...the housing looks great and it's new and what the heck could be the problem ? Apparently he had one of those housings in the shop for a customer's FAST 511 build and didn't like what he saw. Externally the housing looks fine but the engine supply ports (lower openings) are very restrictive. You're kidding right....how can this be ? Nope...they are poorly designed and you'll see it yourself once you pull the pump housing and stick your fingers down the hole.
So, over the w/e i pulled the rad and all the front acessories off the engine to have a peek...sure enough the lower (supply) ports were very small. I compared this to the stock housing and it was like night and day ! On the stock housing i could easily get 2 or more fingers all the way into the hole but on the Source housing i could only get one finger in maybe an inch and it was jammed....WTH !!!
Looking at the two housings and comparing them it was apparant that the factory housing is a much better design ; the water passage makes a gentle radiused curve into the block and has lots of volume. The Source housing has a sharp 90* bend and the water passage is pinched off to maybe 20-30% of the inlet opening. Geez...what a PISS POOR design this POS is. That can't be good for coolant circulation and explains why the coolant was boiling inside the block....it was staying in there too long and forming steam pockets.
So, i re-installed the factory housing with my favorite Milodon water pump and fired it up. The engine ran for 20 minutes and hit 180* sitting there idleing in 108*F ambiant air temps....today was the hottest day of the summer by far....a real scorcher. I immediately noticed that the high radiant heat off the top end of the engine was gone...despite this being the hottest day i had ran the engine so far this year....the last time i ran it the air temp was 80*F. Looking at the coolant flow across the top of the rad i noticed immediately that there was a huge difference in flow....the coolant was circualting like it should be instead of just casually coasting by...which it had been with the 440 Source pump & housing. Encouraged by this i decided to take the car out for a drive to see how it would run....if it could run ok in 108* temps and not overheat...what more could you ask....that's about as bad as it can get ! So off i go for a cruise and it's running great....at speed the temp drops to 175* and holds that temp no problem. I try it in some slow moving traffic and the temp creeps up to 195*....not bad ! As soon as the car begins moving again.....the guage drops back to 175-180 and holds....Right On !!!!!
So, based on these results and close inspection of the 440 Source waterpump housing it's safe to assume that there is a major design flaw. If anybody is running this piece and has noticed increased temps and overheating you now know where to look. I have to give Kudo's to Dwayne for pointing me in the right direction. I hadn't considered that there was a problem with the design of this part because it visually looks good and i just assumed that the internal dimensions would be identical if not superior to the stock housing.....this is absolutely not the case.
Hopefully this helps those members who may be experiencing overheat issues and if you are running one of these Chinese knockoffs my advice is to replace it asap....or at least compare it to the stock housing to see what you've got.
Sorry for the long winded post but i wanted to give an accurate description of the troubleshooting process and how the problem was isolated and ultimately resolved.
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Re: 440 Source water pump housing
[Re: Boise Chall]
#650835
03/29/11 08:55 AM
03/29/11 08:55 AM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 42
British Columbia Canada
Chargervic
member
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member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 42
British Columbia Canada
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I've been reading the posts about the 440 Source water pump housing and here are my findings. I have two housings of theirs, one I purchased in 2007 and one my buddy just received from them. The 2007 housing has no logo in the casting and has quite restricted ports leading into the block. The 2011 housing has their logo on it and has much larger ports. Neither has been on an engine yet, so no experience with overheating, There is plenty of material in the 2007 housing to open the ports up to match the 2011 housing, so that's what I'm going to do. The exterior dimensions are similar. The 2007 unit will be used on my 451" engine with newly installed Stealth Heads. This engine has had no heating problems at all with the ported 452's that have been on it for ten years and 37,000 miles. The 2011 housing is going on my buddy's new 500" stroker being built with mostly 440 Source parts. So far, the deck heights are all within .002" tolerance, the rod and piston weights are all within 3 gms. ( this kit was balanced by 440 Source). We are both using Comp Cams with Comp roller lifters and the upgraded spring retainers and keepers. I do agree with other posts that 440 Source should just supply the good stuff in the first place so you're not throwing away parts you just bought. I'll be installing my parts in the next couple of weeks and will post the results when it's on the road.
BTW, my 451 pushes my 68 Charger to mid 12's and gets 22 MPG. ( My secret? 51 years of building Mopar engines, just retired)
68 Charger 451 / 518
65 Cuda 273 / 833
04 Cummins 2500 2WD
02 Grand Caravan
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Re: 440 Source water pump housing
[Re: Chargervic]
#650836
03/29/11 09:25 AM
03/29/11 09:25 AM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,154
bethlehem pa
mikemee1331
master
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master
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,154
bethlehem pa
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Quote:
I've been reading the posts about the 440 Source water pump housing and here are my findings. I have two housings of theirs, one I purchased in 2007 and one my buddy just received from them. The 2007 housing has no logo in the casting and has quite restricted ports leading into the block. The 2011 housing has their logo on it and has much larger ports. Neither has been on an engine yet, so no experience with overheating, There is plenty of material in the 2007 housing to open the ports up to match the 2011 housing, so that's what I'm going to do. The exterior dimensions are similar. The 2007 unit will be used on my 451" engine with newly installed Stealth Heads. This engine has had no heating problems at all with the ported 452's that have been on it for ten years and 37,000 miles. The 2011 housing is going on my buddy's new 500" stroker being built with mostly 440 Source parts. So far, the deck heights are all within .002" tolerance, the rod and piston weights are all within 3 gms. ( this kit was balanced by 440 Source). We are both using Comp Cams with Comp roller lifters and the upgraded spring retainers and keepers. I do agree with other posts that 440 Source should just supply the good stuff in the first place so you're not throwing away parts you just bought. I'll be installing my parts in the next couple of weeks and will post the results when it's on the road.
BTW, my 451 pushes my 68 Charger to mid 12's and gets 22 MPG. ( My secret? 51 years of building Mopar engines, just retired)
thanks for this update! i've been thinking of switching my cast housing and pump to this but have been worried about what i've read in the Tech section about restrictions. please let me know how this works out for you!  
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Re: 440 Source water pump housing
[Re: mikemee1331]
#650837
03/29/11 02:19 PM
03/29/11 02:19 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,646
Ontario,Canada
firefighter3931
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,646
Ontario,Canada
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Quote:
thanks for this update! i've been thinking of switching my cast housing and pump to this but have been worried about what i've read in the Tech section about restrictions. please let me know how this works out for you!
The post above by GTX Ken was a thread I started on the Charger board. The 440 source housing was a big problem at that time. The overheating issue was resolved with a stock housing & HV Milodon pump.
My new engine is a pump gas 572 and it now has a Mancini Racing housing and pump: http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/brbhigvolwat1.html
The engine runs cool and water circulation across the top of the rad is very good...even at idle. The Mancini waterpump is a dead ringer for the Milodon HV pump and the housing has nice large radiused passages into the block. I would not hesitate to use the Mancini setup....it's working fine on a 700hp roller cammed street car with an aluminum rad and pusher fan.
Worth noting ; a buddy has a 440 source WP housing and i checked it out before we installed it on his motor. The passages were fine but his has the 440 source logo cast into the housing and mine didn't. They must have changed suppliers at some point and somebody dropped the ball. The logo version housing seems to work fine on my friends 440 which is a mild build and is regularly street driven.
Ron
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Re: 440 Source water pump housing
[Re: firefighter3931]
#650838
03/31/11 04:49 AM
03/31/11 04:49 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,906
Athens, Greece
Pyper70
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,906
Athens, Greece
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I was one of the guys who dropped the 440 Source pump and housing. I got mine about 2007/2008. Never installed. I couldnt get my pinky in that port and thats what prompted me to sell it. Looking at it online, it was exactly similar to a CAT setup. I figure the pain and heartache of installing both parts and all that entails (draining coolant, cleaning surfaces, painting the parts, refilling with fluid and shroud/fan removal) wasn't worth the big "maybe" of working. I bought the Mancini setup, Paid a little extra for it...its on the boat now headed towards me. At least I got my money out of the 440S pump/housing when I sold it a year ago
Family owned 1969 Charger R/T DualQuad 440/727/GVO/3.55s
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Re: 440 Source water pump housing
[Re: Pyper70]
#650839
03/31/11 11:35 AM
03/31/11 11:35 AM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 42
British Columbia Canada
Chargervic
member
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member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 42
British Columbia Canada
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FIRST UPDATE:
Since I hate to give up on anything, I just spent about an hour yesterday porting the 2007 housing and managed to get the restricted ports opened up to larger than the 2011 housing's ports. There was lots of material there, no problem.
The next task is to open up the 2011's ports a bit now to match the early ones. I don't foresee any problems with flow now. By the way, I have solved all overheating problems with every big block swap I've done (Have done too many to remember) by using the water pump pulley from a mid 70's air conditioned Chrysler, it's about an inch smaller in diameter than the 60's stock pulley. It's shallower, so you have to move the alternator ahead 1 inch and use a two groove pulley on it and a four groove pulley on the crank, but this works so well I've never had overheating problems with any big block since I started doing this. I could go on with the long story of how I discovered this solution but you'd all fall asleep first.
68 Charger 451 / 518
65 Cuda 273 / 833
04 Cummins 2500 2WD
02 Grand Caravan
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Re: 440 Source water pump housing
[Re: Chargervic]
#650840
03/31/11 07:15 PM
03/31/11 07:15 PM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,555
Rittman Ohio
fourgearsavoy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,555
Rittman Ohio
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I have a similar problem with my car,runs 180 around town but as soon as I hit the highway it starts to climb over 210 and wont come down until I get off and cruise the backroads.I bought the Mancini package back in 2005 and around that time all the cheap housings looked the same. I have a CV electric water pump on mine though and I thought it wasn't pushing the water fast enough at sustained highway speeds. I guess I will take the pump housing off and check the passages  Kind of a PITA with a motor plate  Gus 
64 Plymouth Savoy
493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow
5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box
Dana 60
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