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Re: Original restorations Repo. VS original parts
[Re: anlauto]
#644025
03/23/10 11:38 PM
03/23/10 11:38 PM
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Posts: 1,039
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Paul Jacobs
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Quote:
Dave I certainly was referring to any one of your cars... 
The point I was trying to make was...if the bolt is proven correct for "one" car VS the norm of several cars...what happens if I choose the copy that "one" car ?
Again I refer to ME as coping because in 26 years of Mopars I've NEVER dismantled a 100% origianal car, they've all been nothing more then a bucket of bolts.
In many cases....What was proven to be correct on "one" car has been copied and copied and copied on to several other cars ...leading us to a "norm" which has been generally accepted by the judging public for years ... when it may not have been 100% correct in the first place
Alan,
There are a few cars I too have gotten in boxes, in a million pieces, and wondered what the heck I was going to do in that situation. What I learned from this, was, about 10 years ago I started taking pictures of every original car I could find-whether they were in a junkyard or at a show or in someones garage! Then with those pictures, I documented the assembly plant, and date, they were built. I now have probably 10,000 pictures of documentation, at a huge expense. This gives you a very good indication of what COULD have been done for your car. Unfortunately, unless you take that particular original car apart to restore, you will never know for sure.
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Re: Original restorations Repo. VS original parts
[Re: anlauto]
#644026
03/23/10 11:40 PM
03/23/10 11:40 PM
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Quote:
Can a judge tell you it's wrong, because he or she has not seen that on other cars or in a manual?
Hi Alan,
I can't comment on every venue that is judging Mopar vehicles but I have never seen a scenario where ANY of the judges at the Columbus Nationals have used such a narrow minded approach with their Judging. Keith Rohm has been involved for many YEARS with this Hobby and has done the type of research that is necessary to distinguish the variations I referred to. His back ground comes from the assembly plants so he has "book" and "street" smarts when it comes to how these vehicles were manufactured! I have spent HOURS talking to him about the Ins and Outs of the judging process. Try not to assume that the judges are oblivious to many of the "quirks" that you have made reference to. Being able to identify the "engineered footprint" of a vehicle as well as the "human" element of the vehicle (paint runs, etc...) is what separates the really good Judges from the bad ones! They are aware of how things were done at the factory and can recognize the fashion in which they were replaced or restored.
An area of a car can be refinished with correct parts but the thought process or common sense aspect of the job may not appear right. It is one thing to know how something was done but another to make it look correct. For instance, how many of you have seen exhaust manifolds that exhibit over spray and were INTENDED to look factory correct? Some of these manifolds exhibit a light, fogged over spray but the part they are bolted to (the head) has a heavy application of paint. That is a mental mistake in the process! Someone obviously painted the manifold off of the engine while attempting to manipulate the paint coverage on the parts. It is impossible to have two pieces bolted together, painted at the same time and the parts exhibit a different paint pattern. I have seen the same thing with Starters and the over spray pattern on their aluminum housing. If it was painted together....PAINT IT TOGETHER! The WORST is the OE cars that were painted one section at a time. This can be done BUT it is usually hard for the painter to consistently be aware of where they are at in the process and usually screw up with the transitions from one area of the car to another. They get paint on the back side of frame rails and areas that show inconsistent spray patterns and directional flow. There are MANY other contradictions with restoration processes but THOSE are the things that usually get the point deductions in OE judging, NOT a bolt or screw that might exhibit a variation. If it appears to have been Restored or manipulated.......start all over!! It HAS to look like it was never touched or messed with!
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Re: Original restorations Repo. VS original parts
#644027
03/24/10 01:14 AM
03/24/10 01:14 AM
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Do the Mopar Nationals OE judging use the ICCA judging format or are they still judged without an available to all judging manual?
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Re: Original restorations Repo. VS original parts
#644028
03/24/10 11:47 AM
03/24/10 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Do the Mopar Nationals OE judging use the ICCA judging format or are they still judged without an available to all judging manual?
From an earlier post:
There are manuals, fliers, books, reference guides, etc.... that show how things were done at the factory. These instructional guides convey how a paint job was applied, how an "Assembly" was pieced together or which correct parts were required. No manual or reference material is going to tell ANYONE where drips should or shouldn't be, what scratches should be found on certain assembly parts, etc...etc.... If you are looking for specifics regarding the "signature" characteristics of an assembly line employee you will never find it unless "A PARTICULAR VEHICLE" is used as your reference. ....I don't know how I can be any clearer.
I personally do not know why there would ever be the need for an OE judging manual when the format or extent of involvement is basically up to the participant. On a personal level, having a "manual" or instructional guide would have hindered most of the findings that my personal research uncovered! I would not have wanted to follow the restrictions of a predetermined set of ideas or concepts! That is not what restoring an OE vehicle is all about. It isn't a true/false exam where you can get an accumulation of (abbreviated) data for a quick reference. The subject matter is too broad and takes much more than a little information here or there to allow full understanding of the concepts! If you are looking for a "quick reference" as a shortcut to get into the OE arena, you are probably interested in the wrong venue. You might be better suited for the programs that spell out what they would like for your car to represent, in spite of all the various individual characteristics. Once again, there ARE manuals that tell you how to build these cars. However, YOU WILL NEVER FIND ABSOLUTE MATERIAL THAT PROVIDES A BLANKET CONCEPT REFERENCING ALL THE NUANCES AND INDIVIDUAL CHARACTERISTICS THAT A CAR WAS BORN WITH! If you drop a glass jar of Jelly on the concrete, a "manual" can tell you that it will break and cause a mess. It can't provide absolute specifics as to where every drop of jelly is going to end up splattering!  If there was a "Manual" for OE judging it would be very short and to the point:
Perform personal research, provide personal documentation and invest whatever personal time is necessary to learn the intricate processes involved. OE does not consist of "cookie cutter" instructions like you get when you purchase a plastic model car. If you don't like to do the research or WORK for an end result, find a different area of interest. It is what it is!
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Re: Original restorations Repo. VS original parts
#644029
03/24/10 03:08 PM
03/24/10 03:08 PM
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Anonymous
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Quote:
Quote:
Do the Mopar Nationals OE judging use the ICCA judging format or are they still judged without an available to all judging manual?
From an earlier post:
There are manuals, fliers, books, reference guides, etc.... that show how things were done at the factory. These instructional guides convey how a paint job was applied, how an "Assembly" was pieced together or which correct parts were required. No manual or reference material is going to tell ANYONE where drips should or shouldn't be, what scratches should be found on certain assembly parts, etc...etc.... If you are looking for specifics regarding the "signature" characteristics of an assembly line employee you will never find it unless "A PARTICULAR VEHICLE" is used as your reference. ....I don't know how I can be any clearer.
I personally do not know why there would ever be the need for an OE judging manual when the format or extent of involvement is basically up to the participant. On a personal level, having a "manual" or instructional guide would have hindered most of the findings that my personal research uncovered! I would not have wanted to follow the restrictions of a predetermined set of ideas or concepts! That is not what restoring an OE vehicle is all about. It isn't a true/false exam where you can get an accumulation of (abbreviated) data for a quick reference. The subject matter is too broad and takes much more than a little information here or there to allow full understanding of the concepts! If you are looking for a "quick reference" as a shortcut to get into the OE arena, you are probably interested in the wrong venue. You might be better suited for the programs that spell out what they would like for your car to represent, in spite of all the various individual characteristics. Once again, there ARE manuals that tell you how to build these cars. However, YOU WILL NEVER FIND ABSOLUTE MATERIAL THAT PROVIDES A BLANKET CONCEPT REFERENCING ALL THE NUANCES AND INDIVIDUAL CHARACTERISTICS THAT A CAR WAS BORN WITH! If you drop a glass jar of Jelly on the concrete, a "manual" can tell you that it will break and cause a mess. It can't provide absolute specifics as to where every drop of jelly is going to end up splattering! If there was a "Manual" for OE judging it would be very short and to the point:
Perform personal research, provide personal documentation and invest whatever personal time is necessary to learn the intricate processes involved. OE does not consist of "cookie cutter" instructions like you get when you purchase a plastic model car. If you don't like to do the research or WORK for an end result, find a different area of interest. It is what it is!
Well, what is not clear to me is that you did not answer my questiona. So, I will brake it apart for you.
1. DO THE MOPAR NATIONALS OE JUDGING USE THE ICCA
FORMAT?
I assume you are trying to tell me no, which would be the short simple answer and all I needed to know.
2.IS THIS INFORMATION AVAILABLE TO ALL THAT WANT
TO RESTORE AND HAVE THEIR CARS JUDGED?
NOW this is in reference to the items you listed above as used. Unless things have changed, I will ASSUME the answer is NO.
Why would someone want a judging manual? It is simple, just as with other makes and models that have OE judging, they want everyone to have the items they will be judged on BEFORE they spend a bunch of time and money doing something wrong that will cost them points in judging. The others WANT people to be able to restore their cars to the best possible example for competition.
The general complaints that I heard about the Mopar Nationals judging was that there was no guide for people to use to prepare their cars, and they were being judged by judges that were also judging cars that THEY had restored for others in the same competition. This is totally unacceptable to anyone with a brain. Further more, your right, why do you need a judging manual if the judge doesn't have to adhere to it and can make his own call on what they think is right or wrong, you certainly don't need a manual. Of course this can mean the same car without any changes from one year to another can be scored differently because of different judges scoring the car. OH YEAH, that makes PERFECT sence to me. 
Now I am sure I will get another discertation talking in circles justifying this and maybe some excuse as to why the ICCA judging format WITH available to all manuals are no good, or lacking in someway, or some other excuse. However the bottom line is that it would be FAIR to all being judge to know what is expected in advance, and have concrete rules as to how the car is judged rather than it being a total judgement call by a particular judge. It also allows for many more people to BE judges because there is a written format to follow.
Other make's judging manuals have evolved over the years and are always subject to change with the uncovering of new fact based factory information that sometimes comes to light after years. This allows for cars that were scored in the past to later be wrong or right with regards to recently discovered information. These cars can then be judged again with a new score. It allows those that had things wrong to correct them and for those who were correct in the first place to get the points they were denied in the past. So why can't the Mopar Nationals adopt a written manual to use with this in mind that should satisfy the neighsayers that want to keep things that same in a same circle? With this venue in place it also opens up the possibility of REGIONAL OE judging just as it does with other models.
Feel free to now go ballistic.
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Re: Original restorations Repo. VS original parts
#644030
03/24/10 03:13 PM
03/24/10 03:13 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 21,446
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gtx6970
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Quote:
. DO THE MOPAR NATIONALS OE JUDGING USE THE ICCA FORMAT? I don't believe so
2.IS THIS INFORMATION AVAILABLE TO ALL THAT WANT
TO RESTORE AND HAVE THEIR CARS JUDGED? Yes
http://www.iccahome.org/
I'll add my 
As with any printed literature, use it for what it's intended to be, a guide.
Anytime you use any printed format to restore a insert your preferred subject matter here opens up a possibility for speculation.
I firmly believe the only true source of the end all, no speculation, no questions asked information is the car your working on as 'the' source.
Sure there were assembly procedures that were designed to be adhered to. But just like anything else made with human hands. There are going to be variables from one car to the next built on exact same line and the exact same day and the exact same person. It's human nature to seek an easier, faster , better way to do things that are done on a repetitive day in day out scenario.
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Re: Original restorations Repo. VS original parts
[Re: gtx6970]
#644031
03/24/10 03:26 PM
03/24/10 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
. DO THE MOPAR NATIONALS OE JUDGING USE THE ICCA FORMAT? I don't believe so
2.IS THIS INFORMATION AVAILABLE TO ALL THAT WANT
TO RESTORE AND HAVE THEIR CARS JUDGED? Yes
Bill,
Regarding #2 when did this change? As stated earlier, in 2000-01 I asked for this information and was told it was not available.
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Re: Original restorations Repo. VS original parts
[Re: gtx6970]
#644033
03/24/10 03:40 PM
03/24/10 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
Bill,
Regarding #2 when did this change? As stated earlier, in 2000-01 I asked for this information and was told it was not available.
At that time frame , it's wasn't avail.
Taken directly from Dave's ICCA site
Quote:
It is important to understand that this World Class Reference Manual is not the final word in Restoration or Judging. It is just the beginning of the assembly of objective information. This information will be used to assist in the restoration and impartially evaluate the historical correctness, workmanship, authenticity, and condition of a Mopar!
Exactly the way it should be, so if not, why aren't the Mopar Nationals using that format?
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Re: Original restorations Repo. VS original parts
#644034
03/24/10 03:43 PM
03/24/10 03:43 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 21,446
It's a dry heat
gtx6970
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Quote:
Exactly the way it should be, so if not, why aren't the Mopar Nationals using that format?
Sorry, I can't answer that. They are 2 different judging bodies. and I'm no longer involved with either one by personal choice.( LONG story)
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Re: Original restorations Repo. VS original parts
#644035
03/24/10 04:18 PM
03/24/10 04:18 PM
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Anonymous
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Quote:
The general complaints that I heard about the Mopar Nationals judging was that....they were being judged by judges that were also judging cars that THEY had restored for others in the same competition. ....
Discussing that comment is about like discussing the Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy or some other imaginary happenstance. No one at the Nationals restored a vehicle and then proceeded to judge that car. You might actually be confused WITH the ICCA. They are the venue that has Professional Restoration people involved with their judging programs....not the Nationals OE judging staff!
Quote:
Now I am sure I will get another discertation talking in circles justifying this and maybe some excuse
It has become quite apparent that you have never been involved with the restoration of an OE vehicle! Why don't you take the time to investigate the specifics before criticizing them and you will realize just how ridiculous your sarcastic sentiment has sounded. Trying to discuss this with you is like speaking German to a person that doesn't understand the language. Just because you don't have the vaguest idea about what is involved (in doing an OE vehicle) doesn't mean that it wasn't properly explained. Your warped interpretation of the scenario has somehow become self proclaimed FACT! Why don't you make idiots of all us guys who have actually been involved with the OE venue for all these years! Take a couple of minuets to write up an instructional manual and make a fortune selling "An Absolute OE Restoration Guide" that morons like myself were unable to grasp!  
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Re: Original restorations Repo. VS original parts
#644036
03/24/10 04:52 PM
03/24/10 04:52 PM
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Anonymous
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Quote:
Why would someone want a judging manual? It is simple, just as with other makes and models that have OE judging, they want everyone to have the items they will be judged on BEFORE they spend a bunch of time and money doing something wrong that will cost them points in judging. The others WANT people to be able to restore their cars to the best possible example for competition.....concrete rules as to how the car is judged rather than it being a total judgement call by a particular judge. It also allows for many more people to BE judges because there is a written format to follow.......
Your question/comments are in direct conflict with the premise and concept of OE judging. We are having a 10,000 mile 4 door Valiant being judged at the Nationals this year. Whose car should be used as the "benchmark"? Last years winner? Whose car should be the "line in the sand" for the car that we have over 2500 pictures of documentation? Should it be your car or maybe your friends car? What rules should be written in stone to go by during the judging process for MY car? Maybe you should start a POLL to see what everyone thinks!
The bottom line is that guys like you are looking for the easy way out. You are either too lazy to do the work or do not have the interest to see the project to the end. You would rather have someone else do your work for you because you don't have the patience it requires to finish the task! You can initiate all the POLLS you want in an attempt to gain support for trying to lower the bar and make it easier on yourself! OE Judging is for those who take the time to research and correctly document factory procedures. If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen! It should never be compromised or water down to accommodate those who want to cut corners and cheat the process!
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Re: Original restorations Repo. VS original parts
#644037
03/24/10 06:58 PM
03/24/10 06:58 PM
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Anonymous
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OEM judged cars are typically judged based on the scrutiney of several like model SURVIVOR cars, factory Data, Color & Upholstery Books, original factory liturature, technical bulletins, etc. But you knew that.
A judging manual should be developed with these things as the basis and adhered to until there is additional proof that determines that something in the manual needs correcting. Until that time ALL cars should be judged based on that information in fairness to all. Is this so hard to understand? There should be no laditude that allows a single judge to make a scoring decision outside of the printed manual. In rare exceptions it should be decision based on several judges at the same event and only then with some kind of back up not just a personal OPINION.
Your Valiant is not the typical car that people restore and show, nor are there likely to be many SURVIVORS to compare it to. While I am sure that some will appreciate your undertaking of the car and the job you are doing, I think the vast majority of people will walk right by it at a show or judging event because they have no interest in a car like that. So, for the MAJORITY of the hobby who cares?
I hope this is not taken the wrong way, but from reading your posts I have to think that your are somewhat of an eccentric and go WAY overboard on things. This is good in some cases but way over the top on other things regarding what others think or care about.
I have never been to the Nationals and my comments about the judging of cars by judges that restored that car for others is based on things others have told me of, and it was not just one person but many that were remarking about it. This was all in the time frame of when I first inquired about being able to buy a judging manual for the Nationals OEM format in 2000-01. Maybe it has changed and if you remember I asked that in this thread.
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Re: Original restorations Repo. VS original parts
#644038
03/24/10 08:58 PM
03/24/10 08:58 PM
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Anonymous
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Quote:
I personally have absolutely no interest in restoring a car with the intentions of having it judged in an OE or any other kind of class.....
.....from reading your posts I have to think that your are somewhat of an eccentric and go WAY overboard on things.
You might need to take a look in the mirror when claiming that I have went "WAY overboard" with my commentary Darryl. Take a look at YOUR original quote above. You initially claimed to have had "absolutely no interest in restoring a car with the intentions of having it judged in an OE...." Please don't take this the wrong way but you are either a blatant liar or simply enjoy arguing about things you don't care or know anything about. You sure have been vocal and posted quite a bit about having absolutely no interest in the OE World! You even started a POLL about a subject that you have claim to have absolutely no interest in. It appears you might have actually beat me on that "WAY overboard" concept! Funny how things come full circle to bite you when you least expect it! This usually happens when you can't keep a constant train of thought or recall what you said just a few days ago! Yes Darryl, it looks like the "OE mentality" doesn't suit your personality very well. You might want to actually consult a "Manual" about contradictory thoughts and actions!
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Re: Original restorations Repo. VS original parts
#644040
03/24/10 10:25 PM
03/24/10 10:25 PM
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Because "I" don't have an interest in doesn't mean I can not comment on what I think is right or wrong for the good of the hobby in this matter.
As I said originally, I became interested in this when I wanted to buy a judging manual for a car I was restoring but had no interest in having judge, I just wanted it for MY use. That inquiry set in motion many things that showed me there are things that obviously need to be changed for the good of the hobby in this area. You may not be able to see it but I am sure others can. We will see what others think when the poll ends.
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Re: Original restorations Repo. VS original parts
#644041
03/24/10 11:38 PM
03/24/10 11:38 PM
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Quote:
Because "I" don't have an interest in doesn't mean I can not comment on what I think is right or wrong for the good of the hobby in this matter............We will see what others think when the poll ends.
No one is debating that you have a particular view about a subject. Your problem is that you know nothing about the program yet you want to argue concepts with those who have been involved with it for years! Here is another perfect illustration of the type of person that you are.....remember saying this in another thread?
"Let me ask you this, if you are a meat lover do you have to raise your own steer, butcher it your self, store the complete carcass in your meat locker and cook it yourself to be able to eat it and be considered a meat lover?"
Your problem isn't that you can't be a "meat lover", your problem is that you want to debate the specifics! You want to argue with the Rancher about how they should raise the steer! You want to argue with the butcher about how they should correctly cut the meat. You want to argue with the cook about how they should correctly prepare the meat! The problem with you is that YOU NEVER DID ANY OF TASKS THAT YOU WANT TO ARGUE ABOUT! You ADMITTEDLY don't want anything to do with OE or ANY Judging but you want to change the judging program! Are you  ?
I would imagine that you would tell Babe Ruth how to hit Home runs if he were alive today! The fact is you have no idea what it takes to research or restore an OE Car and all the ridiculous POLLS in the World will never change that fact. Do you think that getting a consensus from other people who never went through the OE program will change anyone's mind? Why don't you POLL those who have been through the program? Are they not the only qualified people to provide you with an accurate opinion poll? Quit wasting your time trying to change something you don't understanding or care anything about.
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Re: Original restorations Repo. VS original parts
#644042
03/24/10 11:59 PM
03/24/10 11:59 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,039
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Paul Jacobs
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Maybe I can add some answers to some questions. The Mopar Nationals OE program has been in constant evolvement since 1990. It has been updated and expanded every year as more things are learned and the restorations have become better. The judging guidelines and score sheets are protected to prevent copycat judging, and to preserve the integrity of the system. Think of it this way. You could spend years and years perfecting a painting like the Mona Lisa. Then, someone comes along, and sells a paint by numbers kit that ends up as good as your painting. What was all your efforts worth, to be diminished instantly? As Dave has clearly pointed out, and I agree 100%, if someone wants to compete in the OE field then it is THEIR responsibility to research on their own! Why should someone get a manual to tell them how to do everything, when people like myself, have spent 20 years learning all the intricate details? I realize in todays society everyone wants an easy way out, but even if their was a manual on the correct way a car should look, you still have to figure out how to make the finishes look right. Making a driveshaft look right is not as simple as sanding it down smooth and puting in NOS U joints! Honestly, if there were a book to completely detail how to perform an OE restoration, it would take 25 books! Don't beleive me? I have 6-4" three ring binders of JUST PHOTOS of our latest restoration. Now just think if I documented the restoration of every component on that car, and the over 1000 hours. Just look at all the hard work Dave Wise has done on the fastener manuals, and how big they are. Now to address some question about the judging staff judging cars they restore-THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN-PERIOD. As I have stated before, I have competed and judged in the Mopar Nationals program over 10 years. If a judge enters a car for competition, he must judge a totally different class. For instance, the years I enetered cars in the stock "concourse" classes, I judged Pro Street. I now judge the Young Guns class as I like talking to the younger kids just getting into this hobby. I have cars judged in another class (OE mainly). There is no conflict of interest if the participants and judges have INTEGRITY-which Keith Rohm demands! Hope this helps a little.
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Re: Original restorations Repo. VS original parts
[Re: SomeCarGuy]
#644043
03/25/10 12:01 AM
03/25/10 12:01 AM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,039
INDIANA
Paul Jacobs
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Quote:
I usually say that Dave is the polemical one, but it appears that other members seem to have caught the disease. Now Dave is the voice of reason. This is a backwards thread. 
I think it's safe to say that Dave has re-written the books on the depth of OE Restorations....And if you keep agreeing with Dave we WILL have to lock this post
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Re: Original restorations Repo. VS original parts
#644044
03/25/10 12:31 AM
03/25/10 12:31 AM
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Anonymous
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Quote:
Back in 2000 I bought a second owner 1968 Hemi Charger that was all numbers matching with history to the original owner that need restoration. I began looking around for a judging manual for OEM cars. I just wanted to have a guideline to make sure I didn't spend time and money doing something wrong during resto to this great car.
One final point Darryl, read your above quote a few more times! Your appeal falls on deaf ears. You've had these cars since 2000. I didn't get my first Chrysler until 2002 and didn't even know HOW to spell MOPAR! Since that time I am on my third OE restored vehicle. The first two both won Gold awards in the OE Judging. I didn't have an OE Manual!! So whats your excuse? You have sat around for 10 years griping and complaining about how inept the OE program is because it won't "give" you a Manual. It all goes back to what I said in an earlier post, " The bottom line is that guys like you are looking for the easy way out. You are either too lazy to do the work..."
Where was the "Manual" for Paul Jacobs? He has more GOLD awards that anyone I know in the OE venue. If you want an "OE Manual" get off your rump and go make one! There have been plenty of people who have been successful without a "Manual" to this point. You want to know why? Because they made the commitment to do whatever it takes to accomplish their goal. You don't care about OE procedures Darryl! If you did.....YOU would be forging ahead and no one could stop you.
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