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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: SomeCarGuy]
#62430
12/10/09 02:55 PM
12/10/09 02:55 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
patrick
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
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Quote:
The NASCRAP guys build their 358's based on what track they are running at. A Martinsville engine will have a different bore and stroke than a Talladega build. But still be a 358.
that's possibly due more for rod ratio than stroke.
talledega will have basically 500 miles near redline. you want a bigger rod ratio to keep piston speed down.
martinsville you're up/down the RPM range all day. with large port heads, a smaller rod ratio helps by accelerating away from TDC quicker, giving a stronger vaccuum signal, and possibly more midrange torque. it will create more piston speed for a given RPM, though, which can have detrimental effects on engine longevity if held at max RPM for sustained periods of time.
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: patrick]
#62431
12/10/09 03:33 PM
12/10/09 03:33 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,575
The Netherlands
BigBlockMopar
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,575
The Netherlands
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Yous guys 'r doing it rong...! Don't compare a 413 with a 440, just compare a 413 with a 383. I see a 413 as a 'better' 383...  440's are good for racing because of the larger bore, but a 413 is just as good of a street-only motor as a 440. I think maybe it's time for a percentage-wise 413 vs 440 SHOOTOUT !!  A 413 is just a "94% 440".
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: HYPER8oSoNic]
#62432
12/10/09 04:09 PM
12/10/09 04:09 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
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Quote:
Hey Runner, why is it that we (the few) are getting this concept and some others like the
hi$$$dollar route?
Building a 413 costs more $ than a 440. Don't you have to go custom if you want a flat top zero deck 413 piston with valve reliefs? Forged 440/413 cranks can be had for pretty cheap, and even the cast 440 cranks are said to be able to do 600hp. Add to that the readily available aftermarket stroker kits and it just makes no sense to buy a 413 to build. Even if you pay $500 for a core 440 versus $200 for a core 413, that price will be made up in the difference of piston cost. So even if that is a wash you're still stuck with the smaller bore size and valve shrouding of the 413. Just makes no sense to run one in anything but a #'s matching car. In a period correct car I would sooner build a 440 and put 413 stickers on it like 383man did on his ride. The 413 has no advantage over the 440. Actually I would rather have a 383 and build it to rev instead of doing a 413.
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#62433
12/10/09 04:42 PM
12/10/09 04:42 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
ScottSmith_Harms
Mr Wizzard
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Mr Wizzard
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
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I guess there are basically two opinions here. Those who'd build a 413 and those who wouldn't. As far as cost goes there no hard & fast way to measure it other than to compare the one single thing that affects the cost of building either, piston cost. If you get the "right" price on a 413 to start with that cost difference could easily be negated to zero $. The other difference is the scant amount of HP difference you'd give up by building a handful fewer cubic inches and MAYBE a few HP due to a wee bit more valve shrouding (really splitting hairs on that one IMO). So, let's give the HP/TQ edge to the 440 over the same build on a 413. What's it going to boil down to in terms of peak HP? (which rarely gets seen in street use) maybe 20HP? Who knows until someone actually does a build off, but I'd bet it's not as much as some pro 440 guys would like to think. At the end of the day if I were given a free 440 core and a free 413 core, I'd build the 440. But the 413 wouldn't just get robbed of it's forged crank and tossed in the dumpster, it would go under the bench as a VERY close second choice for a future project. 
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: ScottSmith_Harms]
#62434
12/10/09 04:55 PM
12/10/09 04:55 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,431
Florida STAYcation
BeEtLeJuIcE !
The village idiot's idiot
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The village idiot's idiot
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,431
Florida STAYcation
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A bigger bore is-the-plan ? .. then you better TALK with the engineers that designed the V-10 motors ...and how about the exotics from Europe ? I am a fan of the 413 ... since the cyl wall thickness is famous for being best-er than a 440....in general. Piston availability ? ... I hope to be doing something about that. I am a fan of the RV motor ...which is a feeble piece due to the fuel delivery, camshaft and of course COMPRESSION ratio. Some of those have speced-out to - in the neighborhood of - 6.5 to one !   Some GOOD pistons will help that out.
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: R70RUNNER]
#62436
12/10/09 05:02 PM
12/10/09 05:02 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,431
Florida STAYcation
BeEtLeJuIcE !
The village idiot's idiot
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The village idiot's idiot
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,431
Florida STAYcation
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Quote:
I really think with all the MH and Idust. 413 that are around and being gathered up.
Are you pointing a finger at ME ? ..
I have NINE complete motors.  
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: R70RUNNER]
#62437
12/10/09 05:05 PM
12/10/09 05:05 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
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Quote:
And that's exactly what I'm doing Scott. I really think with all the MH and Idust. 413 that are around and being gathered up. Someone. (KB Maybe?) will wake up and offer some reasonable price and performance pistons to warrant using them again 
Why would they? Core 440's are not hard to find and are not that pricey unless you're going for a late 60's dated block. And most muscle car guys are going to want the 440 instead of the 413 just because of the familiarity and image. Just like most guys will want a 340 over a 318 or 360. I agree, the power difference won't be huge, and likely insignificant on the quarter mile. You guys wanting 413 pistons, well yeah if I was in your shoes and had a 413 or two sitting around, I might be interested too. But if I'm starting with scratch and don't have an engine, I'll just limit myself to 440's and even if I pay a few hundred bucks more, at least I can pick a simple off the shelf piston and not even have to think about it. Also FWIW, I've NEVER seen a 413 for sale around here. Seem many 440's, 383's and some 400's but never a 413.
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: ScottSmith_Harms]
#62439
12/10/09 05:17 PM
12/10/09 05:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
patrick
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
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Quote:
I guess there are basically two opinions here. Those who'd build a 413 and those who wouldn't. As far as cost goes there no hard & fast way to measure it other than to compare the one single thing that affects the cost of building either, piston cost. If you get the "right" price on a 413 to start with that cost difference could easily be negated to zero $. The other difference is the scant amount of HP difference you'd give up by building a handful fewer cubic inches and MAYBE a few HP due to a wee bit more valve shrouding (really splitting hairs on that one IMO).
So, let's give the HP/TQ edge to the 440 over the same build on a 413. What's it going to boil down to in terms of peak HP? (which rarely gets seen in street use) maybe 20HP? Who knows until someone actually does a build off, but I'd bet it's not as much as some pro 440 guys would like to think.
At the end of the day if I were given a free 440 core and a free 413 core, I'd build the 440. But the 413 wouldn't just get robbed of it's forged crank and tossed in the dumpster, it would go under the bench as a VERY close second choice for a future project.
power difference, with both motors being built identically, I'd expect the 413 to make ~6.5% less power, since it's ~6.5% bigger. so for say, a 450HP/480tq 440 build, I'd expect the 413 to make ~422hp/480 tq.....
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: patrick]
#62440
12/10/09 05:49 PM
12/10/09 05:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
ScottSmith_Harms
Mr Wizzard
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Mr Wizzard
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
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Quote:
power difference, with both motors being built identically, I'd expect the 413 to make ~6.5% less power, since it's ~6.5% bigger. so for say, a 450HP/480tq 440 build, I'd expect the 413 to make ~422hp/480 tq.....
Well those numbers go right inline with my blind stab in the dark guess, (your 28hp vs my 20hp difference guess). At any rate it's all guesswork until someone does a build off of both and dynos them both, same day, same dyno, as many constants as you can throw at the test, etc.
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: BeEtLeJuIcE !]
#62441
12/10/09 06:17 PM
12/10/09 06:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,575
The Netherlands
BigBlockMopar
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,575
The Netherlands
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Quote:
I have NINE complete motors.
Ah Doc! That's where just about all of the remaining 413's are then... 
I've got FOUR of these undiscovered torque-monsters waiting for a good set of cheap slugs to hit the market.
I contacted KB several years ago, but at the time they didn't have any plans of making pistons for the 413.
BTW, here's something to ponder about...
The smaller diameter pistons of a 413 would also mean less ring contact-area in the cylinders, so less ring-drag. Freeing up torqy horses.
If my stone-age calculations are somewhat correct, there's a combined total of roughly 13.8" (!) less ringcontact on a 413-piston compared to a 440-piston.
Smaller piston-tops also mean flame-travel is shorter across the top, meaning faster completion of burn?
Which might also give less chance for detonation (Less area where pre-ignition can occur?).
Or am I jumping conclusions? 
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: CokeBottleKid]
#62445
12/10/09 07:03 PM
12/10/09 07:03 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
HYPER8oSoNic
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
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Obviously a 440 fanatic. You need to read Larry
Shepards book also. I will repeat for the
reading impaired, 440's are great motors, but there are performance applications (not just
resto's) to where this motor fits the bill and
makes good power. Cause you have only a 413,
does not mean you can't run. You have to pick
your fights carefully. Sure 440's rule the upper
classes and sub-11 second in doorslammer ET races.
That is great too, but for a good street car that
is tractable and makes great power to have fun with, I would consider a 413 (cheap to build in the long run, more torque where you need it low
midrange), as if I'd consider a 440. To me one
is as good as the other, you just have to build
it a little differently. Final note, as far as
being "special" only the Long-Ram, Cross Ram and
Inline Dual Quads 413's are special. There were
a limited number of each type built. And that is
a true fact.
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids"
"Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: BigBlockMopar]
#62446
12/10/09 07:07 PM
12/10/09 07:07 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
HYPER8oSoNic
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
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You hit the nail on the head! There is a little
more to making torque than just cubic inch growth,
Good science and machinists math, Big Block.
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids"
"Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: BigBlockMopar]
#62447
12/10/09 07:08 PM
12/10/09 07:08 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,431
Florida STAYcation
BeEtLeJuIcE !
The village idiot's idiot
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The village idiot's idiot
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,431
Florida STAYcation
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Quote:
Quote:
I have NINE complete motors.
Ah Doc! That's where just about all of the remaining 413's are then...
I've got FOUR of these undiscovered torque-monsters waiting for a good set of cheap slugs to hit the market.
I contacted KB several years ago, but at the time they didn't have any plans of making pistons for the 413.
BTW, here's something to ponder about...
The smaller diameter pistons of a 413 would also mean less ring contact-area in the cylinders, so less ring-drag. Freeing up torqy horses.
If my stone-age calculations are somewhat correct, there's a combined total of roughly 13.8" (!) less ringcontact on a 413-piston compared to a 440-piston.
Smaller piston-tops also mean flame-travel is shorter across the top, meaning faster completion of burn?
Which might also give less chance for detonation (Less area where pre-ignition can occur?).
Or am I jumping conclusions?
HermO ... if you have FOUR of those - across-the-pond - that is far FAR more impressive than my nine. BTW ...where did you come-up with those? .. I found most of mine at via eBay or CL.
The piston plans ? .. I have been in touch with a couple of diff people on this. I am looking at REpowering that MH in my avatar and will probably be using a 4.15 crank with the MH heads. This combo will probably net the best compression ratio with those huge combustion chambers of those MH heads.
Your points about ring-drag, flame-travel and a better-burn are very much valid.
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#62448
12/10/09 07:20 PM
12/10/09 07:20 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
HYPER8oSoNic
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
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I agree with some of of your thread, but a 600
anything I'd run a STEEL CRANK. As far as the
small bore/small valves they are on the right path to produce TORQUE. Plus the flame travel
across the piston is less meaning less chance
of DETONATION. More torque in some way offsets
horsepower at the lower and midrange of the rpm
scale.
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids"
"Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
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