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bummer of a day at the dyno.... #577331
01/09/10 01:10 PM
01/09/10 01:10 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm Offline OP
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mickm  Offline OP
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got the car on the chassis dyno.

on a slightly different subject, in line with another thread that i had posted on my oil consumption, with a pressure gauge on the dipstick the gauge was fluttering between 1/2 and 1 psi of pressure when the engine got in the upper rpm range WOT.

on my first pull the A/F on WOT was sitting at mid 14's. perfect, i thought. i knew i was running lean, and i had the biggest step on the power step of the metering rods, and 3 steps to go down. i figured i could get this close with 2 steps, and certainly get it there with all 3. that's a <5 minute change as opposed to 30 minutes to change jets.

in my experience with the carters/eddies, 1 jet is worth approx. 1 point in A/F when in this range. and 1 .005 metering rod step is worth about 2/3 of a jet size.

so i went down 2 steps, and ran it again. virtually no change in the A/F.

???

so i looked around at everything i could, which really isn't much without tearing into things, but this just didn't make any sense. i decided to at least verify that, and went up one jet on my secondaries, and back to the original rods. this should have virtually cancelled out my original metering rod change, but still given me much richer readings than my original run.

but still, the A/F was the same.

then i went down the same 2 steps, and picked up a little HP and torque, but the A/F numbers were pretty much the same.

the O2 sensor was in a bung in the header, so is as accurate as can be from that point of view. i have yet to run into a situation where a jet or major metering rod change had no effect.

i tested my fuel pump a while ago, and it had a steady 5-6 psi, (i forget exactly where it was). and it doesn't show that at some point it is starving for fuel, in that it isn't rich for a while and then falls off. when he jumps on it, it is in the 12's, then there is 1/2 a second to a second where it is up in the 15's, and then settles for the rest of the run into the mid to low 14's.

i'm going to put a tee in my fuel line and test my pump pressure at WOT to eliminate that, but other than that, i can't think of anything that would cause a major jet change to have no seeming effect on A/F.

again, ???

Re: bummer of a day at the dyno.... [Re: mickm] #577332
01/09/10 01:26 PM
01/09/10 01:26 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,563
Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick Offline
Still wishing...
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Downtown Roebuck Ont
Silly question but... open headers or thru the exhaust?

Kevin

Re: bummer of a day at the dyno.... [Re: Twostick] #577333
01/09/10 01:31 PM
01/09/10 01:31 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm Offline OP
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Quote:

Silly question but... open headers or thru the exhaust?

Kevin




through the exhaust...

Re: bummer of a day at the dyno.... [Re: mickm] #577334
01/09/10 01:35 PM
01/09/10 01:35 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,316
Prospect, PA
BSB67 Offline
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Is this on dual quad hemi in your sig?

Re: bummer of a day at the dyno.... [Re: BSB67] #577335
01/09/10 01:46 PM
01/09/10 01:46 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm Offline OP
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Quote:

Is this on dual quad hemi in your sig?




yes it is.

i should note also that i've had it on a dyno before, and saw normal changes with jet/metering rod changes.

the carbs are eddy 650 thunders.

Re: bummer of a day at the dyno.... [Re: mickm] #577336
01/09/10 02:04 PM
01/09/10 02:04 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,316
Prospect, PA
BSB67 Offline
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IMO, changing just the rods on the primaries of both carbs (I presume) would not effect a very large change in the WOT a/f.

If the light load cruise a/f is lean.
I would go up at least one jet size in all eight holes.

If light load cruise is fine, I would richen the high speed step in the primary rods, and jet up one maybe two sizes on the secondary jets.

Re: bummer of a day at the dyno.... [Re: BSB67] #577337
01/09/10 02:13 PM
01/09/10 02:13 PM

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Quote:

IMO, changing just the rods on the primaries of both carbs (I presume) would not effect a very large change in the WOT a/f.

If the light load cruise a/f is lean.
I would go up at least one jet size in all eight holes.

If light load cruise is fine, I would richen the high speed step in the primary rods, and jet up one maybe two sizes on the secondary jets.





changing metering rods are for fine tuning after you get the metering jets close to where you want to be. well thats how i do it.

Re: bummer of a day at the dyno.... [Re: mickm] #577338
01/09/10 03:27 PM
01/09/10 03:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,046
Oregon
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I tune with metering rods on the dyno also because it is so much faster. As long as you are using metering rods that have the same large step diameter and a smaller second step you should be going in the right direction. For example, start off with 65/52 and go to 65/47 and then to 65/42 rods.

The other thing is to measure the rods to make sure they are actually what you think they are. I always use a dial caliper to double check the rods.

Lack of fuel flow can be causing the issue that you are seeing. Either the fuel pump isn't putting out enough volume or your needle and seats are at capacity. Have you installed the larger needle and seats?

Re: bummer of a day at the dyno.... [Re: BSB67] #577339
01/09/10 03:40 PM
01/09/10 03:40 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm Offline OP
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Quote:



If light load cruise is fine, I would richen the high speed step in the primary rods, and jet up one maybe two sizes on the secondary jets.




that is what i did, and that is why i'm stumped. my last change was one jet richer on the secondaries, two steps richer on power with the metering rods, and i saw virtually no change.

Re: bummer of a day at the dyno.... [Re: AndyF] #577340
01/09/10 03:46 PM
01/09/10 03:46 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm Offline OP
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Quote:


Lack of fuel flow can be causing the issue that you are seeing. Either the fuel pump isn't putting out enough volume or your needle and seats are at capacity. Have you installed the larger needle and seats?




no i haven't. and that would explain it. if all through the range the needle and seat were restricting the flow, that could do it.

what is a real puzzler here is last time i was on the dyno, i went from a 16.1 A/F to 13.4 by going from an .098 to a .104 secondary jet, two jet sizes. pretty significant change.

there are two differences in the engine at this point. 1) the heads are flowing about 20% better, 2) it isn't taking in the oil through the PCV that it was.

so i'm not sure how i could be flowing enough fuel then, but not now, unless that 20% in head flow is changing things that much.

Re: bummer of a day at the dyno.... [Re: mickm] #577341
01/09/10 04:13 PM
01/09/10 04:13 PM

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one thing more to do before you change to larger needle and seat is to jump up to like a .113 jet and see if your a/f changes,if not, then go to the larger needle and seat think it .120 and then if that doesnt work,look for vacuum leak or you need a larger fuel system.

Re: bummer of a day at the dyno.... #577342
01/09/10 05:21 PM
01/09/10 05:21 PM
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Posts: 2,697
Renton Wa
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I realize it should have changed some, but, have you calibrated or changed the sensor recently?


11.48 @ 120 with a 1.80 60' 318, stock 1.88 heads, stock 904, Pump Gas, 13 lbs of boost.

9.94 @ 134, 318 on pump gas, 14 lbs w/ Eddies, transbrake 727, 3600 lbs, 3.54 gear and 28's.
Re: bummer of a day at the dyno.... #577343
01/09/10 05:51 PM
01/09/10 05:51 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm Offline OP
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Quote:

one thing more to do before you change to larger needle and seat is to jump up to like a .113 jet and see if your a/f changes,if not, then go to the larger needle and seat think it .120 and then if that doesnt work,look for vacuum leak or you need a larger fuel system.




i think i get what you mean, although these carbs are jetted differently. the primaries are stock at .095, and the secondaries at .098. right now i have an .095 in the secondaries, so i need to go to an .098 or a .101 to see what that does.

my thinking is this: doesn't matter what jets/rods are in the carbs, those WILL determine the A/F ratio. change them, and even if you are still off, you SHOULD see a change in one direction or the other.

per my example, i was running .095's in my secondaries when i had a 16.1 ratio. i changed that to a .101, leaving the primaries alone, and i went to a 13.4. two jet sizes, almost 2 full points in the A/F.

this time i have done almost the same thing, 1 jet size and 2 metering rod sizes: no change.

so something else is going on here.

Re: bummer of a day at the dyno.... [Re: topfueldart] #577344
01/09/10 05:52 PM
01/09/10 05:52 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm Offline OP
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mickm  Offline OP
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Quote:

I realize it should have changed some, but, have you calibrated or changed the sensor recently?




you know, i was thinking about that afterwards. the sensor was the dyno shops. but i think i'm going to call them up and ask that question.

Re: bummer of a day at the dyno.... [Re: mickm] #577345
01/09/10 06:04 PM
01/09/10 06:04 PM

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sensors will work then show no reading, when they are done from my experience.

with afb's prmaries should be richer than secondaries.
but in large stroker motors i usually run square in all 8.
go bigger on your primaries.

Re: bummer of a day at the dyno.... #577346
01/09/10 06:14 PM
01/09/10 06:14 PM
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Posts: 4,179
California
mickm Offline OP
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Quote:

sensors will work then show no reading, when they are done from my experience.

with afb's prmaries should be richer than secondaries.
but in large stroker motors i usually run square in all 8.
go bigger on your primaries.




will check out both of these.

thanks...

Re: bummer of a day at the dyno.... [Re: mickm] #577347
01/09/10 06:31 PM
01/09/10 06:31 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,093
Long Beach, CA
Mike Swann Offline
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Have you looked at the plugs after a pull?


8.30's @3400 lbs






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