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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: mickm]
#558008
01/01/10 11:28 AM
01/01/10 11:28 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,715
closer to Canadian beer!
torkrules
I'm neurotic
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I'm neurotic
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,715
closer to Canadian beer!
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Quote:
Quote:
As to the OP ... if it blew the valve out of the
grommet, you have a blow by problem... have you put
a gauge on the dip stick tube yet
didn't blow it out of the grommet, this was a breather stuck down over the filler pipe coming up out of the valve cover. the other breather is tighter, and has never been an issue. this one was looser, and i wondered about it when i put it on, but figured it would be ok. apparently not.
as far as the gauge, i have a pressure/vacuum gauge, but i'll have to rig it up with the right fittings to go over the dipstick, i haven't done that yet. will see if i can get to that this weekend.
Hi Mick,
Sorry to hear your having all of this trouble. Don't worry your not alone. Mine is apart again because #3 cam bearing must have turned somewhere along the way.
Once I tore it down, I find I'm sucking oil too. The only thing I can figure is the intake is not fitting correctly.
I hate to say it, but you may need to tear it down and do some investigating. Like I said earlier, I had a number of problems last time(too much piston to wall clearance, bad guides and probably a bad fitting intake). Those problems were fixed. My only constant is the intake. The stage V fits much better.
The problem is with all this oil getting in the combustion chamber, everything will look like a barbecue grill after cooking greasy ribs. I've spent my whole Christmas holidays taking heads apart and de-greasing chambers, pistons, and valves. Had a good gooey layer of this stuff on those parts. Onces its apart you can eliminate what its not.
It does sound like you have some blow by. Do you think the breather fell out of the stack due to road bumps? I'd think the stack should hold the breather in even if it is a little loose.
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: mickm]
#558009
01/01/10 11:35 AM
01/01/10 11:35 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Quote:
As to the OP ... if it blew the valve out of the
grommet, you have a blow by problem... have you put
a gauge on the dip stick tube yet
didn't blow it out of the grommet, this was a breather stuck down over the filler pipe coming up out of the valve cover. the other breather is tighter, and has never been an issue. this one was looser, and i wondered about it when i put it on, but figured it would be ok. apparently not.
as far as the gauge, i have a pressure/vacuum gauge, but i'll have to rig it up with the right fittings to go over the dipstick, i haven't done that yet. will see if i can get to that this weekend.
Get the fitting that will fit the gauge to hose,
then clamp the hose onto the dip stick, run enough
hose so you can tape the gauge to your windshield
so you can watch it during driving
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: torkrules]
#558011
01/01/10 02:03 PM
01/01/10 02:03 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
OP
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Quote:
It does sound like you have some blow by. Do you think the breather fell out of the stack due to road bumps? I'd think the stack should hold the breather in even if it is a little loose.
i think it was road bumps and blow by pressure combined. i've never had an issue with the breather that was on there before or the pcv, (although obviously the connected pcv was relieving the pressure in the crankcase).
like i said, i was skeptical on the fit of this thing in the first place, but figured it was good enough.
so it is just eliminating things one by one. i'll test the pressure via the dipstick tube, and go from there.
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: mickm]
#558012
01/02/10 08:36 PM
01/02/10 08:36 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
OP
master
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OP
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put the gauge on the dipstick, and it was showing a slight bit of pressure at idle and slightly above, 1500 rpm or so. closed off the two breathers as best i could, (milk bottle tops and duct tape, high tech engine analysis equipment  ), and drove it around. it was slightly pressurized the whole time. about .5 psi. it didn't vary much at all that i could see. probably didn't have it above 2500 rpm, but drove around for a few minutes, and didn't notice any change. i would expect that the pressure would increase... i'm not sure exactly how well i had the breathers sealed off, but they were pretty close to sealed. but with no place for that pressure to go, except back into the cylinders, and a slight bit out the not-totally-sealed breathers, it seems that it should increase. unless it's being sucked in at the manifold?
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: mickm]
#558013
01/02/10 08:51 PM
01/02/10 08:51 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
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Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Now do the same thing with the breathers open/working, also what gauge are you using.... is it like 1 - 5 psi, being really low you should use a inches of water... but dont worry
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#558014
01/02/10 08:57 PM
01/02/10 08:57 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
OP
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Posts: 4,179
California
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Quote:
Now do the same thing with the breathers open/working,
also what gauge are you using.... is it like 1 - 5 psi,
being really low you should use a inches of water...
but dont worry
ok, will try that. i'm using a vacuum/fuel pressure gauge. testing it out, 1-2 lbs of pressure isn't that much, so i'm sure it is good enough for this.
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: mickm]
#558015
01/03/10 12:36 AM
01/03/10 12:36 AM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,025
Las Vegas, NV
dodgeboy11
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,025
Las Vegas, NV
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I'm sorry to say it, but it sounds as if your blowby is excessive. It shouldn't be blowing that much oil out. A little bit is normal, but if it's wet all around it then I suspect it's going past the rings. Doesn't matter what the crosshatch looks like, if it's glazed it'll be an oil burner.
I feel you've covered all other avenues, if it's still burning that much oil and you don't have a vacuum source to be sucking it up, it's gotta be coming from the one other place it can come from. A leak down won't always catch this either as the rings might be sealing at TDC or BDC but not inbetween. Reversion could account for the oil in the intake tract.
I mean if it's not coming from the valve stems, pcv valve or the intake gaskets (or some misc crack or porosity elsewhere) that pretty much points to the cylinders.
Again, all that other stuff's been verified right?
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: mickm]
#558016
01/03/10 12:52 AM
01/03/10 12:52 AM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,328
St. Louis, MO
mopardamo
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,328
St. Louis, MO
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Hello mickm, What Mr P body is saying is that if your gauge reads high psi then the 0.5 psi reading is likely not accurate. Gauges should read about the middle of the psi expected for best accuracy. So in your case a 0 to 1 psi gauge would be ideal. Unless you have a very high reading gauge it is likely not a problem. There is another problem I ran across that simulates your conditions. My exhaust tubing was inserted to far into the reducer creating an unintentional reversion cone. This caused a relentless back pressure problem that went away when I had it re-welded into the correct position. Just another thing to check. Good luck. Damon 
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: mopardamo]
#558017
01/03/10 12:57 AM
01/03/10 12:57 AM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,025
Las Vegas, NV
dodgeboy11
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,025
Las Vegas, NV
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Quote:
Hello mickm,
What Mr P body is saying is that if your gauge reads high psi then the 0.5 psi reading is likely not accurate. Gauges should read about the middle of the psi expected for best accuracy. So in your case a 0 to 1 psi gauge would be ideal. Unless you have a very high reading gauge it is likely not a problem.
There is another problem I ran across that simulates your conditions. My exhaust tubing was inserted to far into the reducer creating an unintentional reversion cone. This caused a relentless back pressure problem that went away when I had it re-welded into the correct position. Just another thing to check. Good luck.
Damon
If it was a ford it woulda ran better with exhaust backpressure. Fords like backpressure in the exhaust  . Somebody told me that once. I mean I read it in a book. Wasn't the Bible though so I have my doubts. 
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: dodgeboy11]
#558018
01/03/10 10:29 PM
01/03/10 10:29 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
OP
master
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the saga continues: i ran the car with the breathers on and the gauge connected to the dipstick tube, and got no reading at all. now, the gauge may not be sensitive enough for this application, as some have suggested, but at least it's safe to say it wasn't excessive. took the car for a drive, came back, oil all over the steering box, frame rail below the battery tray! and... no dipstick. no, the dipstick isn't on the side of the road, it's on the bench in plain sight, where i left it after not putting it back in. so, clean it up, out for another run, (which included WOT through 1st into 3rd), and there is oil running down the valve cover from the breathers. more on the drivers side, a little on the passenger side. now these are K/N breathers that are more like filters, with rubber grommets that slide over the outside of the stove pipe sticking up from the valve cover. so any oil blown up inside these has no place to go except out through the filter paper. so right now it seems i have 2 issues: 1) too much blow by 2) oil being either sucked into the engine (via the pcv), or blown out the breathers, at least partly, or mostly, because of the blowby. 1 i'm not going to do anything about right now. at least in the near future, i'm not going to tear the motor apart. but somehow i have to figure out how to keep the oil in the engine, and at least a good portion of my oil consumption should go away. my valve covers have baffles, (and it baffles me how that much oil gets past the baffles ). i will try my old breather on the driver side this week, and see if it leaks as much. i'm kind of thinking it won't, as it butts up against the top of the stove pipe, and so i would think a good deal of oil can simply run back down inside. it never leaked before, but i've run it with the pcv, where air was being sucked through that breather, and up through the pcv, along with oil. anyway, anyone have any thoughts about how to simply set this up so it can vent the crankcase, but not spew oil? or any other thoughts?
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: mickm]
#558019
01/03/10 10:57 PM
01/03/10 10:57 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
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Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Do you know what a separator bottle is... 2 tubes going into a bottle(just through the top) hook your PCV hose(from the carb) to one side of the bottle then hook the other to the PCV hose, that will put the bottle in line as a collector.... you might need to do the same on the breathers(larger hose will slow the volicity).... thats about all I can suggest untill you find the cause
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#558020
01/03/10 11:11 PM
01/03/10 11:11 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
OP
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Quote:
Do you know what a separator bottle is... 2 tubes
going into a bottle(just through the top) hook your
PCV hose(from the carb) to one side of the bottle
then hook the other to the PCV hose, that will put
the bottle in line as a collector.... you might need to
do the same on the breathers(larger hose will slow
the volicity).... thats about all I can suggest untill
you find the cause
so basically then you are saying that as the blowby gasses are exiting through the breather, there is enough velocity there that it picks up particles of oil to carry with it?
doesn't that mean that the oil is in a mist form, either in the heads, crankcase or both?
so how about a very simple test. if i put my hand over the breather tube in the valve cover on an engine that is properly ring sealed, and bring the rpm way up, then i should be able to feel the difference between my engine and that one?
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: mickm]
#558021
01/03/10 11:22 PM
01/03/10 11:22 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
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Master
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Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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so basically then you are saying that as the blowby gasses are exiting through the breather, there is enough velocity there that it picks up particles of oil to carry with it? doesn't that mean that the oil is in a mist form, either in the heads, crankcase or both? so how about a very simple test. if i put my hand over the breather tube in the valve cover on an engine that is properly ring sealed, and bring the rpm way up, then i should be able to feel the difference between my engine and that one?
Thats what gauges are for.... you have a ring/blow by
issue... all I was suggesting was a way to catch
the oil that comes out of the breathers and the PCV
untill you fix it... you could make a better baffle
system for the breathers
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#558022
01/03/10 11:26 PM
01/03/10 11:26 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
OP
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Quote:
Thats what gauges are for.... you have a ring/blow by
issue... all I was suggesting was a way to catch
the oil that comes out of the breathers and the PCV
untill you fix it... you could make a better baffle
system for the breathers
yup, got it. thanks for all your help, i really appreciate it 
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: NITROUSN]
#558024
01/03/10 11:48 PM
01/03/10 11:48 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
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Quote:
IMO You have a serious ring problem. If I was to look at your motor I would bet in 10 seconds of running time you have way to much blow by. 
you know, that is what it is really looking like. what makes it a little difficult though was a good compression test and a good leakdown. and yes, there seems to be a wide range of interpretations on leakdown. mine averaged 8-9%. the guy whose gauges i used races, and he considers that absolutely fine for a street car. i have talked to others who say the same, and yet there are people on the board who say that is awful.
but none the less, it wouldn't seem that i should be having that kind of an issue.
wouldn't i expect to see much more pressure at my dipstick test?
or is it possible that the ring problem is only showing it's ugly face at WOT?
i understand that the real way to test this is with proper gauges, but if i put my hand over the valve cover breather and rev the engine for a bit, my hand doesn't come away covered in oil.
i'm just trying to get a grasp on this....
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: 64Post]
#558027
01/04/10 02:30 AM
01/04/10 02:30 AM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
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Quote:
Do you have a chassis dyno around?
yup, what are you thinkin?
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Ya need to bite the bullet and find out how much pressure you are dealing with 
