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My B1 572 Dyno on E85 VS Sonoco Maximal
#509790
10/28/09 11:59 AM
10/28/09 11:59 AM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
camastomcat
OP
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OP
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Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
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I finally got my new 572 B1 motor on the dyno. Made several pulls on 116 Maximal,(5) to 7600, and it made 1034HP at 7200RPM, and 810FP at 6200RPM. Then we put the E85 APD on and made 1 pull, made 75 less HP, and killed the rings. My combo is 4.500x4.500, B1 original heads, 16-1 compression, cam is 286@50Int 296@50Ex, 112 lobe center, 1150 APD dominator gas, 1250 dominator E85. I mix Sonoco 112 with Sonoco Maximal 116 50/50 and add that 10% to 90% pure Ethonol. A/F on E85 was 9.6-1, and gas was 14.50-1. Any ideas? Engine builder sited excessive detonation. 
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Re: My B1 572 Dyno on E85 VS Sonoco Maximal
[Re: camastomcat]
#509792
10/28/09 12:25 PM
10/28/09 12:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,635
Oakland, MI
dizuster
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master
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,635
Oakland, MI
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16:1 on E85 is a bunch. How big is the cam? (just to get an idea of cylinder pressure) Both 14.5:1 and 9.6-1 A/F seem really lean too. I've heard that mixing higher octane race gas with E85 is ineffective in bringing up the octane rating because the chemicals used to bring up octane in gas don't work in ethanol?  The highest Ethanol motor I know of is Darren's Hemi motor, but it's 15.5:1 and on E100.
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Re: My B1 572 Dyno on E85 VS Sonoco Maximal
[Re: camastomcat]
#509794
10/28/09 12:32 PM
10/28/09 12:32 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,141
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,141
Bend,OR USA
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Quote:
I finally got my new 572 B1 motor on the dyno. Made several pulls on 116 Maximal,(5) to 7600, and it made 1034HP at 7200RPM, and 810FP at 6200RPM. Then we put the E85 APD on and made 1 pull, made 75 less HP, and killed the rings. My combo is 4.500x4.500, B1 original heads, 16-1 compression, cam is [Email]286@50Int[/Email] [Email]296@50Ex[/Email], 112 lobe center, 1150 APD dominator gas, 1250 dominator E85. I mix Sonoco 112 with Sonoco Maximal 116 50/50 and add that 10% to 90% pure Ethonol. A/F on E85 was 9.6-1, and gas was 14.50-1.
Any ideas? Engine builder sited excessive detonation.
I don't know what AFR the E85 wants so it won't detonate but the race gas AFR are way to lean for that kind of compression, IMO. Did you fatten the jetting up at all on the first 5 pulls on gasoline? I have seen AFR sensors read goofy on a engine dyno that had a lot of race fuel as well as pure methanol ran on them, my last motor was reading lean AFR on race gas but lost power when we fatten the jets up two sizes. It regained the lost power when we jetted it back down I switch intakes and carbs(single 9375-2 Dominator on a 440-2 intake with a tapered two inch adapter and a one inch phenolic spacer(AFR read 14.2to 14.3) to a pair of early 9375 non HP carbs on a Indy tunnel ram, AFR read 10.2 on the first pulls and the motor lost a bunch of power so we ended up jetting it down 12 jet sizes and stopped testing due to running out of time on the dyno. That jetting ended up making around 30 more HP than the first set up did, we did not jet the tunnel ram carbs down enough to loose power when we quit so it may need leaner jets jet on the tunnel ram combination. I am going to test it agagin soon and see if one or both of the tunnel ram carbs has a stuck or leaking needle and seat. I'm sorry you hurt your motor, it sounds like it is a good one, let us know how bad it is hurt and what it takes to fix it  Are you going to retest it after it is back together? I hope so  I have seen a loss of power on a 452 C.I. motor that had 14.7 to 1 comp. ratio going from VP C114+ to VP C12, around 30 HP on a 640 HP reading going down to 612 HP with no jetting or timing changes
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: My B1 572 Dyno on E85 VS Sonoco Maximal
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#509795
10/28/09 12:34 PM
10/28/09 12:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,633
Jacksonville, NC
RonP
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Jacksonville, NC
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I don't have a lot to offer, but have been doing a lot of reading on E85 as I am thinking of switchcing since I have an extra 1050. This is off of the www.raceone85.com site : Q: How much compression can I run with E85 fuel just the way it comes out of the pump at my local station? A: This is one question I don't have a concrete answer for. We are running it in engines up to 14.5:1 naturally aspirated and some fairly high boost forced induction applications with great results. I have seen charts that draw the line at 16:1 but there again I just don’t have the data yet of a failure directly due to the compression limit of pump grade E85 being reached.
Last edited by RonP; 10/28/09 12:54 PM.
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Re: My B1 572 Dyno on E85 VS Sonoco Maximal
[Re: RonP]
#509796
10/28/09 12:52 PM
10/28/09 12:52 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,229
In The Hills
jughed
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Mar 2006
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In The Hills
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Quote:
I don't have a lot to offer, but have been doing a lot of reading on E85 as I am thinking of switchcing since I have an extra 1050. Off of the www.raceone85.com site :
Q: How much compression can I run with E85 fuel just the way it comes out of the pump at my local station?
....
my 540 is 13.5/1, and from what i have read elswhere it's an ideal comp. for running E85.
i will be making the switch to E85 next year and have just finished installing the Dominator carb kit.
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Re: My B1 572 Dyno on E85 VS Sonoco Maximal
[Re: dizuster]
#509797
10/28/09 01:18 PM
10/28/09 01:18 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
camastomcat
OP
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OP
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Salt Lake City
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Quote:
16:1 on E85 is a bunch. How big is the cam? (just to get an idea of cylinder pressure)
Both 14.5:1 and 9.6-1 A/F seem really lean too.
I've heard that mixing higher octane race gas with E85 is ineffective in bringing up the octane rating because the chemicals used to bring up octane in gas don't work in ethanol?
The highest Ethanol motor I know of is Darren's Hemi motor, but it's 15.5:1 and on E100.
I was told by John Kyle (owner of APD) the A/F ratio to use, and how to mix the fuel for higher octane rating. Also, as far as the gas, it made good power, and the dyno owner operator said the A/F on his machine, should be 14.5 to one. Also the EGT's on both looked typical to what mine run on the car. I have a racedata recorder, and can record runs. If you can't run E85 on compression that high, it's news to me, but that's how it looks. All it will need is rings, I just don't want to do it again. What is puzzleing to me is there was no sign of detonation on the plugs?
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Re: My B1 572 Dyno on E85 VS Sonoco Maximal
[Re: jughed]
#509798
10/28/09 01:24 PM
10/28/09 01:24 PM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 254
Vista, CA
71Chip
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 254
Vista, CA
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I'm not an expert but my Mach 1 is running on e85 out of the pump, and I hooked up my AEM Eugo AFR guage and 02 sensor.
The car seems happiest at around 8:1 AFR.
Most guides for forced induction say to start tuning on E85 at around 7:1 AFR, and try leaner from there.
Being way too lean may have contributed to your heavy detonation
71 Challenger
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Re: My B1 572 Dyno on E85 VS Sonoco Maximal
[Re: jim sciortino]
#509800
10/28/09 01:42 PM
10/28/09 01:42 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
Bob_Coomer
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master
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Rock Springs
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With that engine, I would forget the E-85 and run Alky? They are both cheap, and Fuel consumption would be similar. What is the reason for even considering E-85 with that much Compression?
[color:"red"]65 Hemi Belvedere coming soon [/color]
[color:"#00FF00"]557" Indy engine 1.07 60ft 144mph in the 8th 2100 lbs package [/color]
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Re: My B1 572 Dyno on E85 VS Sonoco Maximal
[Re: Bob_Coomer]
#509801
10/28/09 02:16 PM
10/28/09 02:16 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
camastomcat
OP
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OP
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Salt Lake City
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Quote:
With that engine, I would forget the E-85 and run Alky? They are both cheap, and Fuel consumption would be similar. What is the reason for even considering E-85 with that much Compression?
It's alot less maintainance, less hard on the oil, no need for belt pump w/E85 ect.
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Re: My B1 572 Dyno on E85 VS Sonoco Maximal
[Re: camastomcat]
#509802
10/28/09 03:00 PM
10/28/09 03:00 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,141
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
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Posts: 43,141
Bend,OR USA
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When you said the rings where the only thing hurt by the detonation that doesn't seem to be possible, to me All of the motors hurt be detonation I have seen heat the pistons up collapsing the ring lands and sometimes breaking the ring lands out of the cast pistons and sometimes even the forged pistons, which ends up transferring piston and ring material into the cylinder walls. I have also seen damage done to the aluminum cylinder heads and valve seats from detonation, maybe your engine builder needs to take a real close look at the entire motor very carefully Or maybe the rings where hurt some other way than detonation  Like to tight of a end gap 
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: My B1 572 Dyno on E85 VS Sonoco Maximal
[Re: camastomcat]
#509804
10/28/09 03:59 PM
10/28/09 03:59 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
I can't speak as why or what he saw, but he has it apart, and builds alot of motors around here that run well. He said it burnt the chrome moly off the top rings, so he is going to a gapless top ring.
hopefully he'll be using a different material this time as well. hellfire/ TNT/ or AP steel.
Last edited by DRAM_Perf_Only; 10/28/09 04:02 PM.
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Re: My B1 572 Dyno on E85 VS Sonoco Maximal
[Re: camastomcat]
#509805
10/28/09 04:00 PM
10/28/09 04:00 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
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Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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I've been running E-85(right out of the pump, summer blend) with 14.1:1 for a couple years.... its all in the cam for what compression you can get away with, wide LSA so the valve closes later for less low end compression 
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Re: My B1 572 Dyno on E85 VS Sonoco Maximal
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#509806
10/28/09 05:01 PM
10/28/09 05:01 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
camastomcat
OP
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OP
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Salt Lake City
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Quote:
I've been running E-85(right out of the pump, summer
blend) with 14.1:1 for a couple years.... its all in
the cam for what compression you can get away with,
wide LSA so the valve closes later for less low end
compression
I have heard that, but I really don't want to change cams. Both engines have the same camshaft (I bought 2) and my goal was to have twins.
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Re: My B1 572 Dyno on E85 VS Sonoco Maximal
[Re: camastomcat]
#509809
10/28/09 07:52 PM
10/28/09 07:52 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419
Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Kalispell Mt.
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I don't know how much another 5 percent would have made of a differance but they suposedly run 15 percent gasoline minimum to give it some lube and keep from hurting rings...
Also remember that lead clogs up AF meters in the exhaust and other types just arn't as acurate.
As for if it was detonation I would think it could have happened during the gasoline run and not showed a problem till you switched to the E-85.
The 105 octane rateing on the e-85 is kinda a misleading way of judging it's usefullness since it cools so much when it goes in the engine it kinda artificially increases it's octane even more.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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