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Re: NOS ????
[Re: 70dusterjohn]
#493229
10/10/09 09:25 PM
10/10/09 09:25 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,200
UK
602heavy
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,200
UK
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Nitrous plate should go UNDER the spacer for sure , if you're ONLY spraying a 100 shot then pull around 5 degrees & work it back in if the plugs tell you so , should be fine on the fuel you normally use , if the plugs are projected tip then change them out , NGK are a good nitrous plug.
Buy the system as a kit , mismatched solinoids don't fair to well if you have'nt got a handle on the tune.
Last edited by 602heavy; 10/10/09 09:31 PM.
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Re: NOS ????
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#493231
10/10/09 10:02 PM
10/10/09 10:02 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 799
Missouri
bb74swngr
mopar addict
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mopar addict
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 799
Missouri
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The instructions for my NOS Super Powershot on page 13 says to use the 2* per 50hp method and test against the plugs and MPH. Is this bogus info?
BigBlock 74 Swinger
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Re: NOS ????
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#493232
10/10/09 10:12 PM
10/10/09 10:12 PM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,613
Deerfield, Ohio
70dusterjohn
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,613
Deerfield, Ohio
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Quote:
The plate should go between the adapter and intake, NOT above adapter. Forget the 2* per 50 hp for retard numbers, the timing number that the motor runs N/A has no bearing where it will run on spray. Where timing needs to be on spray depends on how much you spray, how much compression you have, what head you have, what fuel you run, what plug you run, among other things.
Monte
Thanks for answering Monte.. Was hoping to get so insight on this from you. It's a 440-1 headed motor right at 13 to 1, I'm thinking bout 100 or 125 shot.. I'm running VP C12 fuel, I'd have to look at the plugs that are in there but their middle of the road Autolites..
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Re: NOS ????
[Re: bb74swngr]
#493233
10/10/09 10:32 PM
10/10/09 10:32 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,200
UK
602heavy
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,200
UK
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Quote:
The instructions for my NOS Super Powershot on page 13 says to use the 2* per 50hp method and test against the plugs and MPH. Is this bogus info?
The info on that sheet is better than no info at all if you're a beginner , although 3* per 50 would be a safer starting place , only the motor will tell you what it wants , these timing #s quoted are just a starting refference & not set in stone , i pull 6* on a 300 hit , 9.5 to 1 with around .100 quench , the 2 per 50 rule would have me pull 12* , my other motor wanted 10* on a 200 hit.
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Re: NOS ????
[Re: racerx]
#493235
10/11/09 12:05 PM
10/11/09 12:05 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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Let me say one more time, the timing number that your motor runs best N/A has absolutely no bearing, where it needs to run on spray, so the "x" per hundred, or fifty, or whatever, is useless. Let me put it this way, lets say you have two nearly identical motors, but for whatever reason, one liked 32 degrees and the other liked 40 degrees on motor. If you used to "2 per 50" rule, motor 1 would be at 24* with a 200hp shot, motor 2 would be at 32* with a 200hp shot. Motor 2 is not going to be happy, as that is too much timing, for a properly tuned 200hp shot. This is an extreme example, but it shows why the "X per hp" rule, is about the dumbest thing they ever came up with. This gets more people in trouble than anything else. As far as "that is what is in the NOS catalog", well, not for long. New catalogs and instruction sheets are being printed and a new way to arrive at timing numbers is being included. I know this, because I wrote the new instructions and tune ups, for the new catalog.
Monte
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Re: NOS ????
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#493236
10/11/09 12:13 PM
10/11/09 12:13 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,295
U.S.
moparniac
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,295
U.S.
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So you spray a 150 shot after removing... lets say 9* of timing for example and the plug is still pig rich.. you would? I think im gonna spray later in the year....  my car I just bought is wired up with a 3 stage retard system.. have no idea how to use it yet...
Last edited by *WeDgiE*; 10/11/09 12:16 PM.
Mopar Performance
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Re: NOS ????
[Re: moparniac]
#493237
10/11/09 05:06 PM
10/11/09 05:06 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,200
UK
602heavy
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,200
UK
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Over time i've found the 2* per 50 hit does'nt always work , in saying that it worked pretty well on an old 440 i ran , the 605" i run now likes around 1* per 50 hit (300 shot) if you base it on timing pulled per 50 shot , when i sprayed it with a 200 shot it liked 1.5* per 50 , so you can see with this engine the more i spray the less spark lead needs to be pulled , if i step up to a 500 shot then who knows , it might start going the other way regards timing , guys new to this have got to start somewhere & i found the 2* per 50 WAS a good starting point when i running the cheater plate , if the fuel you use is the correct rating & the plugs are right for the ammount of spray you're gomnna be using then i don't think pulling 2* per 50 is gonna hurt the motor when spraying around 150/200 shot , just gotta read those plugs after the first 1/8th make pass & go from there , you may find the motor wants more or less timing , @ least you had a starting point ,& yes bigger hits are a different ball game , but by that time the begginer should have a hadle on it. 
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Re: NOS ????
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#493238
10/11/09 06:38 PM
10/11/09 06:38 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,274
s.w.fl
bonefish
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,274
s.w.fl
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Quote:
Let me say one more time, the timing number that your motor runs best N/A has absolutely no bearing, where it needs to run on spray, so the "x" per hundred, or fifty, or whatever, is useless. Let me put it this way, lets say you have two nearly identical motors, but for whatever reason, one liked 32 degrees and the other liked 40 degrees on motor. If you used to "2 per 50" rule, motor 1 would be at 24* with a 200hp shot, motor 2 would be at 32* with a 200hp shot. Motor 2 is not going to be happy, as that is too much timing, for a properly tuned 200hp shot. This is an extreme example, but it shows why the "X per hp" rule, is about the dumbest thing they ever came up with. This gets more people in trouble than anything else. As far as "that is what is in the NOS catalog", well, not for long. New catalogs and instruction sheets are being printed and a new way to arrive at timing numbers is being included. I know this, because I wrote the new instructions and tune ups, for the new catalog.
Monte
when are the new catalogs going to be ready?
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Re: NOS ????
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#493239
10/11/09 07:09 PM
10/11/09 07:09 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 58
Suwanee, Georgia
srracing8
member
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member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 58
Suwanee, Georgia
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Listen to Monty. I ran all kind of combinations that always resulted in N2O backfires. Needless to say I rebuilt and even bought a couple Dominators and a new set of Dart Pro1's before I got wise and asked the expert to set up my combination. I tried running the 2* timing. My 468-9.5/1 on the dyno made 658hp on 110 @ 37*. Put the N2O and the right combination works at 22* for a 125 shot. I have been using Monty's set up for better than 200 rounds and no I will be sorry for saying this) issues.
1/8@5.83/120mph
1/4@9.28/143mph
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Re: NOS ????
[Re: srracing8]
#493240
10/11/09 08:37 PM
10/11/09 08:37 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,200
UK
602heavy
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,200
UK
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Quote:
Listen to Monty. I ran all kind of combinations that always resulted in N2O backfires. Needless to say I rebuilt and even bought a couple Dominators and a new set of Dart Pro1's before I got wise and asked the expert to set up my combination. I tried running the 2* timing. My 468-9.5/1 on the dyno made 658hp on 110 @ 37*. Put the N2O and the right combination works at 22* for a 125 shot. I have been using Monty's set up for better than 200 rounds and no I will be sorry for saying this) issues.
Was that a typo error? , you're saying you pulled 15* on a 125 hit? , either you left some power on the table or the motor had wayyyyyyy to much spark lead on motor only , i pulled 15* on a 300 hit & blew the throttle plates off the carb , this was due to crossfire in the cap , have since changed it out for a different cap.
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Re: NOS ????
[Re: moparniac]
#493241
10/12/09 01:28 AM
10/12/09 01:28 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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Quote:
So you spray a 150 shot after removing... lets say 9* of timing for example and the plug is still pig rich.. you would?
I think im gonna spray later in the year.... my car I just bought is wired up with a 3 stage retard system.. have no idea how to use it yet...
If it is rich, you remove fuel, or add nitrous, rich is not a timing issue. You CANT force a motor to burn more fuel than it needs by adding timing. If its rich, its rich.
Monte
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Re: NOS ????
[Re: 602heavy]
#493242
10/12/09 01:31 AM
10/12/09 01:31 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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Quote:
Over time i've found the 2* per 50 hit does'nt always work , in saying that it worked pretty well on an old 440 i ran , the 605" i run now likes around 1* per 50 hit (300 shot) if you base it on timing pulled per 50 shot , when i sprayed it with a 200 shot it liked 1.5* per 50 , so you can see with this engine the more i spray the less spark lead needs to be pulled , if i step up to a 500 shot then who knows , it might start going the other way regards timing , guys new to this have got to start somewhere & i found the 2* per 50 WAS a good starting point when i running the cheater plate , if the fuel you use is the correct rating & the plugs are right for the ammount of spray you're gomnna be using then i don't think pulling 2* per 50 is gonna hurt the motor when spraying around 150/200 shot , just gotta read those plugs after the first 1/8th make pass & go from there , you may find the motor wants more or less timing , @ least you had a starting point ,& yes bigger hits are a different ball game , but by that time the begginer should have a hadle on it.
Obviously I can't tell you what to do, but I wish you would please stop suggesting these timing formulas. They don't work. Even your own examples, don't work, so why quote them. This is not goood info for a beginner.
Monte
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Re: NOS ????
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#493244
10/12/09 01:15 PM
10/12/09 01:15 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,200
UK
602heavy
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,200
UK
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Quote:
Quote:
Over time i've found the 2* per 50 hit does'nt always work , in saying that it worked pretty well on an old 440 i ran , the 605" i run now likes around 1* per 50 hit (300 shot) if you base it on timing pulled per 50 shot , when i sprayed it with a 200 shot it liked 1.5* per 50 , so you can see with this engine the more i spray the less spark lead needs to be pulled , if i step up to a 500 shot then who knows , it might start going the other way regards timing , guys new to this have got to start somewhere & i found the 2* per 50 WAS a good starting point when i running the cheater plate , if the fuel you use is the correct rating & the plugs are right for the ammount of spray you're gomnna be using then i don't think pulling 2* per 50 is gonna hurt the motor when spraying around 150/200 shot , just gotta read those plugs after the first 1/8th make pass & go from there , you may find the motor wants more or less timing , @ least you had a starting point ,& yes bigger hits are a different ball game , but by that time the begginer should have a hadle on it.
Obviously I can't tell you what to do, but I wish you would please stop suggesting these timing formulas. They don't work. Even your own examples, don't work, so why quote them. This is not goood info for a beginner.
Monte
If you have to shoot me down then @ least read the whole post , i said i did'nt agree with the 2 per 50 rule , i also said it does'nt always work & gave an EXAMPLE of how much timing per 50 shot would equate to if you work the figures back , again the 2 per 50 rule goes out the window , Nos reccommended this 2 per 50 rule , also the wayyyyyy fat jet spread on their plates , you are obviously well standing with Holley/Nos so i would of thought you would have sorted this issue long ago (still not sorted) , you are well respected on ALL sites & i also respect you're knowledge , a lot of guys run nitrous & we live in a big world , there are ways of passing comment without ripping a guy to shreds , the original poster wants a timing figure for a 150 shot (no biggie) , i suggested if he had to go by the 2 per 50 rule then pulling 3 per 50 would'nt hurt any parts as he'd be pulling 9* on a 150 shot , what would you suggest?.
& yes i am a member of YB , where i also follow you're postings along with other great guys on there , so if you can cut us mere mortals a bit of slack it would be appreciated.
Last edited by 602heavy; 10/12/09 01:36 PM.
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Re: NOS ????
[Re: moparniac]
#493245
10/12/09 08:00 PM
10/12/09 08:00 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,200
UK
602heavy
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,200
UK
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Quote:
I would buy one of your books Monty 
I would also buy one of those books.
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Re: NOS ????
[Re: 602heavy]
#493246
10/13/09 12:24 AM
10/13/09 12:24 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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I was not trying to rip you at all. I was merely trying to point out, that all your talking about timing numbers and 1.5 per 50, 2 per 50, 3 per 50, was all very confusing and I KNOW what you are trying to say and talking about, but all that will get a beginner lost very quickly. When I deal with a beginner, I want to find out everything about his combo. Heads, compression, cam, converter, gear, fuel and sparkplug. I want to know what nitrous jet he has, not that it has a xx hp tune. I want the actual jet numbers and what solenoids he has. If he has a powershot solenoid, or cheater, or pro race, that will greatly effect, how much nitrous a given jet will pass. So I want specifics. If I get these numbers, I will give a jet spread, a fuel pressure and timing number, and pretty much guarantee it to run well, run clean and most importantly, to run safe. So to me, there is no magic formula, or "this should get you close" scenario. One of the largest problems with nitrous, is the vast amount of misinformation out there. If you are on the Bullet, you see it often. Guy wants to know about so and so tune, and immediately starts getting tuning suggestions from all sorts of people and not one has asked about the combo. Same thing on this board and is one of the main reasons I seldom post on nitrous threads. I figure if a guy is really serious about it and wants my help, he will PM me. I know this particular poster has asked about nitrous before and same as this time, someone suggested he call me. I have never heard from him, so I assume he did not need or want my help, which is fine, not everyone does. But I hate posting tune up numbers on a forum like this, because someone else will see it, who may have a totally different combo. They try it and it does not work with what they have, then myself and nitrous, both get a bad name.
As far as why Holley/NOS has not corrected the issue...well, I have been there nearly 4 years and it has taken this long, to actually make this happen, as I have been working on this from day one. You have to understand, that as many kits as we offer, I had to go over every possible kit and combination of kits and adjust all jetting patterns. Then, all instruction sheets had to be rewritten and new jetting packs put together and made ready for use and finally, new catalogs are being printed. It's not like you can say, "hey, we should change that" and it happens in a few weeks.
Monte
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