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Re: Dyno day for my 505 - Results and NEED HELP!
[Re: gregsdart]
#469955
09/18/09 03:59 PM
09/18/09 03:59 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
Bob_Coomer
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
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I never ever would run a flat tappet cam that late. The engine cant rpm enough to make up to that.
Even max ported those heads hit a wall near 6K.
Move the cams Intake Center Line to 105-106 at least. Looks like that engine doesnt like the wide centers of 112 LSA. IMO those wider LSA cams are more suited for engines with bigger heads, which are able to turn some RPM.
I dont like the cam...
You never did say what valve lash was hot, or at least i missed that part. If you have more dyno time, move the ICL to 105, and tighten lash up to .018-.020 Hot max. I will bet you anything, the motor will respond.
Those intake work, and are known to work for years, but in that particular combo, with a 4.25 stroke, it might not be the hot ticket.
If hood clearance isnt a issue, i would say you would see some return with a M1.
I dont like the Team G, the one I picked up suffered from real bad core shift.
That engine should be a easy 600-625 hp motor.
Change the cam all together. Go with a more conventional cam profile something with the LSA of 108-109. Dont be scared to add some duration to it.. The 112 suppose to broaden torque range...well with those heads, and that stroke..you just dont need it.. It will be a torque monster. You need to look in the other direction IMO...look for a cam with lobes that will help peak hp, and raise the RPM range to above 6K.
[color:"red"]65 Hemi Belvedere coming soon [/color]
[color:"#00FF00"]557" Indy engine 1.07 60ft 144mph in the 8th 2100 lbs package [/color]
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Re: Dyno day for my 505 - Results and NEED HELP!
[Re: Bob_Coomer]
#469956
09/18/09 04:50 PM
09/18/09 04:50 PM
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 698
Alberta Canada
Edge
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 698
Alberta Canada
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I am certainly no expert but I would not get too worked up over the dyno numbers. Would be good to know what kind of numbers have been recorded on that specific dyno for comparision purposes. There can be huge discrepancies between dynos.
However I would also be surprised if this combination make power gains above 5900 RPM. I have not looked at a set of stealth heads myself but the power might still be head limited even with max porting since the cross sectional area of the port can become the limiting factor for the cubic inches that you are trying to feed.
76 Duster
work in progress
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Re: Dyno day for my 505 - Results and NEED HELP!
[Re: Defbob]
#469959
09/18/09 11:29 PM
09/18/09 11:29 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,296
Chicago, IL
TonyS451
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,296
Chicago, IL
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Hey guys - Back from the dyno tonight and after lots of wrenching and changes...not much different. I decided not to try the headers tonight, mainly because we just ran out of time. Plus, the TTI header collectors angle inward towards the back of the block and would have required a little lite fab work to make them work on the dyno. Whatever gains there may be will have to be put to the test once its in the car.
Ok, so I decided to advance the cam and also switch intakes from the Holley SD to M1. The intake swap came first and peak numbers were 567hp at 5800 and 565tq at 4800 (vs the SD 560hp at5800 and 559tq at 4900). So, the M1 helped a bit, but not as much as I had hoped for.
Next, we decided to advance the cam. The Cloyes timing set has 3 settings so it went from 109 to 105. Peak numbers after doing that change went to 563hp @5600 and 565tq @ 4900. Timing and jetting were tested with each change and best timing with the advanced cam and M1 was 36, and jetting 78 and 86.
We made quite a few pulls in all and to be honest, I was just done. I'm sure the headers will help, but again, I will just have enjoy their benefits in the car. I will just have to guess what they could've done on the dyno.
All in all, I would be lying if I said I was completely satisfied. Its more like I have just come to terms with the reults. But despite the let down, I'm not going to give up on it. I'm going to get it in the car, and see what she can do at the track, where it counts. Plus, I have no doubt its going to make for a fun street car.
I guess that old Holley SD ain't so bad after all.
2 kids and a dog
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Re: Dyno day for my 505 - Results and NEED HELP!
[Re: TonyS451]
#469960
09/19/09 12:25 AM
09/19/09 12:25 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,205
Someplace you aren't
SomeCarGuy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,205
Someplace you aren't
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What ignition are you running?
Any way to look at the timing at over 5K and see if it is where you think it is?
I want my fair share
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Re: Dyno day for my 505 - Results and NEED HELP!
[Re: TonyS451]
#469961
09/19/09 12:26 AM
09/19/09 12:26 AM
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,840
Flint, Michigan
B1Fish540
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,840
Flint, Michigan
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Quote:
Hey guys - Back from the dyno tonight and after lots of wrenching and changes...not much different. I decided not to try the headers tonight, mainly because we just ran out of time. Plus, the TTI header collectors angle inward towards the back of the block and would have required a little lite fab work to make them work on the dyno. Whatever gains there may be will have to be put to the test once its in the car.
Ok, so I decided to advance the cam and also switch intakes from the Holley SD to M1. The intake swap came first and peak numbers were 567hp at 5800 and 565tq at 4800 (vs the SD 560hp at5800 and 559tq at 4900). So, the M1 helped a bit, but not as much as I had hoped for.
Next, we decided to advance the cam. The Cloyes timing set has 3 settings so it went from 109 to 105. Peak numbers after doing that change went to 563hp @5600 and 565tq @ 4900. Timing and jetting were tested with each change and best timing with the advanced cam and M1 was 36, and jetting 78 and 86.
We made quite a few pulls in all and to be honest, I was just done. I'm sure the headers will help, but again, I will just have enjoy their benefits in the car. I will just have to guess what they could've done on the dyno.
All in all, I would be lying if I said I was completely satisfied. Its more like I have just come to terms with the reults. But despite the let down, I'm not going to give up on it. I'm going to get it in the car, and see what she can do at the track, where it counts. Plus, I have no doubt its going to make for a fun street car.
I guess that old Holley SD ain't so bad after all.
In the long run, Tony, I think you will be glad you built it the way you did...car should be a gas on the street and dependable. You could always try a cam lift with more lift to take full adavantage of the ported heads. Or you might try some 1.6 rockers some day. Cant wait for some real world track time and see what she does! 
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Re: Dyno day for my 505 - Results and NEED HELP!
[Re: MrFoFody]
#469963
09/19/09 12:43 AM
09/19/09 12:43 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
sixpackgut
Drag Week Mod Champion
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Drag Week Mod Champion
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
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did you try any carb spacers?
my changes would be to port those heads to MW size, a mp 337 intake and a dominator
Gen 3 power 6.22@110, 9.85@135
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performance only racing, CRT, ultimate converter, superior design concepts, ThumperCarbs
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Re: Dyno day for my 505 - Results and NEED HELP!
[Re: TonyS451]
#469965
09/19/09 08:15 AM
09/19/09 08:15 AM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,140
Central NC
gch
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,140
Central NC
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NO expert here but I would venture to guess a 1" tapered 4-hole spacer would work well.Porting the intake should show increase as well.I believe increasing the plenum volume would be a good idea.
The sd should do well on that engine.They have responded well on other 500c.i. engines so no reason why it won't work with yours.
Try to make one change at a time so you know why it improves(or doesent).
Last edited by gch; 09/19/09 10:24 AM.
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Re: Dyno day for my 505 - Results and NEED HELP!
[Re: gch]
#469966
09/19/09 08:38 AM
09/19/09 08:38 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,296
Chicago, IL
TonyS451
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,296
Chicago, IL
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Thanks guys for the moral support during this difficult time  Somecarguy - I'm running a Mopar Perf distributor. I didn't check timing above 5k, but based on the smooth graph it doesn't appear to have anything going on with timing. Sixpackgut - I didn't mess with carb spacers with the M1 as it wouldn't fit under my hood anyways. I did run a 1" open on the Holey SD. I'm not sure the Stealth heads are worth anything in MW form. Have you heard anything about that? BSB67 - My engine guys says his dyno is definitely more consevative than some other dynos...for what thats worth. I assume the numbers ar corrected and also that carb was opening all the way. The engine was already running on the dyno before I arrived for cam break in. I'll check later today just to be sure. GCH - I did try a 1" open on the Holley SD, but nothing on the M1. I actually only ran the Holley with a 1" spacer, not without. The carb linkage was rubbing the intake without it. Gonna have the grind the intake a bit for clearance when in the car. I'm almost tempted to flow one of the heads just to see whats going on with them...
2 kids and a dog
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Re: Dyno day for my 505 - Results and NEED HELP!
[Re: Defbob]
#469968
09/19/09 09:28 AM
09/19/09 09:28 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,175
Park Forest, IL
slantzilla
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,175
Park Forest, IL
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Tony, as said before the dyno is just a tuning tool. It's easy to get wound up in the whole "big numbers" thing, but dynos and numbers lie sometimes. You will probably be pleasantly surprised when you get it in the car and down the track. 
"Everybody funny, now you funny too."
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Re: Dyno day for my 505 - Results and NEED HELP!
[Re: TonyS451]
#469970
09/19/09 09:56 AM
09/19/09 09:56 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
sixpackgut
Drag Week Mod Champion
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Drag Week Mod Champion
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
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Quote:
Thanks guys for the moral support during this difficult time
Somecarguy - I'm running a Mopar Perf distributor. I didn't check timing above 5k, but based on the smooth graph it doesn't appear to have anything going on with timing.
Sixpackgut - I didn't mess with carb spacers with the M1 as it wouldn't fit under my hood anyways. I did run a 1" open on the Holey SD. I'm not sure the Stealth heads are worth anything in MW form. Have you heard anything about that?
BSB67 - My engine guys says his dyno is definitely more consevative than some other dynos...for what thats worth. I assume the numbers ar corrected and also that carb was opening all the way. The engine was already running on the dyno before I arrived for cam break in. I'll check later today just to be sure.
GCH - I did try a 1" open on the Holley SD, but nothing on the M1. I actually only ran the Holley with a 1" spacer, not without. The carb linkage was rubbing the intake without it. Gonna have the grind the intake a bit for clearance when in the car.
I'm almost tempted to flow one of the heads just to see whats going on with them...
IMO, your whole problem is port volume. i'm sure your heads flow around 300 or so but its still a standard port head. it just cant breath. if those heads are like the edelbrocks, raising the port roof as much as you can where the pushrod pinch is, is the only way to increase the volume. add in the 337 intake and you can use a MW style gasket and dont have to mess with a valley tray anymore. i still think you need way more plenum volume if you run a 4150 carb though.
Gen 3 power 6.22@110, 9.85@135
Follow @g3hemiswap on instagram
performance only racing, CRT, ultimate converter, superior design concepts, ThumperCarbs
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Re: Dyno day for my 505 - Results and NEED HELP!
[Re: sixpackgut]
#469971
09/19/09 10:05 AM
09/19/09 10:05 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
Bob_Coomer
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
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I guess you tired almost everything that I would have done to try to pick the engine up power wise....and it didnt work.  But Like mentioned, that engine might perform as well as any other engine that makes 600hp on someone Else's dyno. Those heads on that large of a engine will make more torque, than all out hp... You need a way to extend the RPM range another 700-1000 rpm....then hp has no other choice but to follow. I remember the first time down the track with a 4.15 stroke engine, and box stock edelbrock heads....It pulled good till about 5800 rpm's..Then it was literally like running the car against a brick wall...the nose fell down...I knew it was going to be a mid range rpm engine...
[color:"red"]65 Hemi Belvedere coming soon [/color]
[color:"#00FF00"]557" Indy engine 1.07 60ft 144mph in the 8th 2100 lbs package [/color]
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Re: Dyno day for my 505 - Results and NEED HELP!
[Re: sixpackgut]
#469972
09/19/09 10:14 AM
09/19/09 10:14 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,296
Chicago, IL
TonyS451
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,296
Chicago, IL
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Quote:
Quote:
Thanks guys for the moral support during this difficult time
Somecarguy - I'm running a Mopar Perf distributor. I didn't check timing above 5k, but based on the smooth graph it doesn't appear to have anything going on with timing.
Sixpackgut - I didn't mess with carb spacers with the M1 as it wouldn't fit under my hood anyways. I did run a 1" open on the Holey SD. I'm not sure the Stealth heads are worth anything in MW form. Have you heard anything about that?
BSB67 - My engine guys says his dyno is definitely more consevative than some other dynos...for what thats worth. I assume the numbers ar corrected and also that carb was opening all the way. The engine was already running on the dyno before I arrived for cam break in. I'll check later today just to be sure.
GCH - I did try a 1" open on the Holley SD, but nothing on the M1. I actually only ran the Holley with a 1" spacer, not without. The carb linkage was rubbing the intake without it. Gonna have the grind the intake a bit for clearance when in the car.
I'm almost tempted to flow one of the heads just to see whats going on with them...
IMO, your whole problem is port volume. i'm sure your heads flow around 300 or so but its still a standard port head. it just cant breath. if those heads are like the edelbrocks, raising the port roof as much as you can where the pushrod pinch is, is the only way to increase the volume. add in the 337 intake and you can use a MW style gasket and dont have to mess with a valley tray anymore. i still think you need way more plenum volume if you run a 4150 carb though.
I know I could have made more power with bigger heads, dominator, roller cam, etc. I built the engine this way because I wanted a stout motor with good street manners. Street manners were highly considered during this build (as was cost), and I knew there would be a power compromise because of that. However, I still expected this combination (as is) to do better on the dyno, thats all.
2 kids and a dog
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Re: Dyno day for my 505 - Results and NEED HELP!
[Re: sixpackgut]
#469973
09/19/09 10:21 AM
09/19/09 10:21 AM
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,840
Flint, Michigan
B1Fish540
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,840
Flint, Michigan
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Quote:
Quote:
Thanks guys for the moral support during this difficult time
Somecarguy - I'm running a Mopar Perf distributor. I didn't check timing above 5k, but based on the smooth graph it doesn't appear to have anything going on with timing.
Sixpackgut - I didn't mess with carb spacers with the M1 as it wouldn't fit under my hood anyways. I did run a 1" open on the Holey SD. I'm not sure the Stealth heads are worth anything in MW form. Have you heard anything about that?
BSB67 - My engine guys says his dyno is definitely more consevative than some other dynos...for what thats worth. I assume the numbers ar corrected and also that carb was opening all the way. The engine was already running on the dyno before I arrived for cam break in. I'll check later today just to be sure.
GCH - I did try a 1" open on the Holley SD, but nothing on the M1. I actually only ran the Holley with a 1" spacer, not without. The carb linkage was rubbing the intake without it. Gonna have the grind the intake a bit for clearance when in the car.
I'm almost tempted to flow one of the heads just to see whats going on with them...
IMO, your whole problem is port volume. i'm sure your heads flow around 300 or so but its still a standard port head. it just cant breath. if those heads are like the edelbrocks, raising the port roof as much as you can where the pushrod pinch is, is the only way to increase the volume. add in the 337 intake and you can use a MW style gasket and dont have to mess with a valley tray anymore. i still think you need way more plenum volume if you run a 4150 carb though.
Do you think a better head design like the Indy EZ would have the same problem (also flowing 300+ cfm)? Thats interesting that port volume would have such an impact on a big motor..but it does seem to make sense. I know on my 540 i made 750 ft lbs w/B1 heads, so i think you have something there 
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