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Bad night at the track " UPDATE"
#438336
08/14/09 11:08 PM
08/14/09 11:08 PM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,613
Deerfield, Ohio
70dusterjohn
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,613
Deerfield, Ohio
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Well just got back from the track, and let me tell ya I should have staied home.First off I had to stop three times on the way out there, cause my trailer lights went out.. So I can deal with that, I got them fixed and on our way. Get to the track and un-load the car and take it to warm up. Right of the car just didn't sound right.. it starts to stall, now what.. Well dumby me forgot to take the cab hat off.. Well that wouldn't be the last time for that.. I ended up doing it three times total. Okay so I take the car up and do the burn out, all is right with the world, stage the car and bam I slap the gas, the car just blows the tired off.. then went hard to the left, what the heck is that.. so I'm out of the gas right after second gear.Come back check the tire pressure, its at 20lbs  not good.. So I drop the pressure, take the car back up.. Stage it leave, okay that felt better, pull second its still pulling hard, pull third and thats when it all starts, the car starts bucking, falling on its face and then picking up again.. I look at the fuel pressure and its at 2.5 and bouncing to 3.0 and back, so I get out of the gas at the 1000ft marker and runs 10.17 at 132.963  So I think the prerssure is to low.. Soooooo I raise it up to 7, I had it set at 6 the runs before.. Go back up and the same thing happens.. third gear falls om its face, 2.5, 3 pounds, so I back out of it again at little past the 1000 ft runs 10.02 134.623  What the crap is going on.. Come back jack the pressure up to 7.5 pounds, go back up for the same thing.. Third gear 2.5, 3 pounds, runs 10.02 130.236.. Man I'm done, so I load it up and come home. Sooo whats the deal???  I got no idea, the only thing I did was replace the holley blue pump with the new Mallory 140 plus regulator.. I don't understand what the problem is.. I'm bout ready to pull the pump off and throw it as far as I can, and put my crappy blue pump back on. Go with a better pump and go slower, went 9.80 with the crappy blue pump..  Any ideas.. Let them fly..
Last edited by 70dusterjohn; 08/15/09 12:51 PM.
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Re: Bad night at the track
[Re: 70dusterjohn]
#438342
08/14/09 11:19 PM
08/14/09 11:19 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,127
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,127
Bend,OR USA
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What is between the pump and the tank? A freind of mine recently upgraded his fuel system and had a similsr problem, the new pump would suck the fuel filters dry which ended up driving the fuel pressure down at the carbs. His old system was two Holley blues(one started leaking) with two Fram chrome canister fuel filters between the fuel cell and the pumps, out of the pumps into a Y (all # 8 lines between the Y and the fuel cell) and then a # 8 to the front with two little Holley fuel regulators, one for each carb. He replaced the pump with a BG 480 and athe little Holley regulators with a four port Aeromotive return style regulator with a #10 feed from the back and a # 10 return to the cell  The only thing he left was the two Fram fuel filters fed by 2 # 8 lines into the Y and then into the BG 480 He now has two inline 40 Micron Aeromotive fuel fliters that are rated to flow a lot more than the two Frams that where rated at 90 GPH or less
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Bad night at the track
[Re: 70dusterjohn]
#438348
08/15/09 12:28 AM
08/15/09 12:28 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,127
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,127
Bend,OR USA
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Quote:
What do ya mean MR P Body.. How do I check that??
You disconnect the fuel lines to the carb and place them into a safe container, two or more gallons, bigger is better on this one. Turn the fuel pump on fornine, ten or eleven seconds and measure the amount of gas in the container in ounces, do the test several times (sameamount of time on each test  )so you get a average. Barry Grant has a chart for fuel consumption measured in how many seconds it takes to pump one gallon, hopefully some one who knows how will post a link to it  what I remember is a nine second car needs to pump one gallon in twenty seconds or less, a ten second car needs to do it in 25 seconds, I think anyways. I might have the numbers skewed some IHTHs
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Bad night at the track
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#438349
08/15/09 12:31 AM
08/15/09 12:31 AM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,613
Deerfield, Ohio
70dusterjohn
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,613
Deerfield, Ohio
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Quote:
Quote:
What do ya mean MR P Body.. How do I check that??
You disconnect the fuel lines to the carb and place them into a safe container, two or more gallons, bigger is better on this one. Turn the fuel pump on fornine, ten or eleven seconds and measure the amount of gas in the container in ounces, do the test several times (sameamount of time on each test )so you get a average. Barry Grant has a chart for fuel consumption measured in how many seconds it takes to pump one gallon, hopefully some one who knows how will post a link to it what I remember is a nine second car needs to pump one gallon in twenty seconds or less, a ten second car needs to do it in 25 seconds, I think anyways. I might have the numbers skewed some IHTHs
Thanks Guys, I'm just pulling my hair out with this one. It was such a wasted night.
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Re: Bad night at the track
[Re: Cheatham]
#438352
08/15/09 02:41 AM
08/15/09 02:41 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,245
Between a rock & a hard place
cudadoug
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,245
Between a rock & a hard place
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First of all, it wasn't THAT bad; you didn't wad it up or blow it up!
I had the EXACT same problem once. Reset psi, changed regulators twice, changed pump relay, pump switch, re-wired pump/relay wiring, changed carbs twice, changed pumps THREE times...same problem. Changed brands of fuel THREE times, no solution. Pump test? Each time and each pump passed with flying colors? I'm pullin' what's left of my hair out...GRRRRRRRRRRRR. Wife says, you've changed everything but the fuel cell, might as well try that. I do it, all the while thinking she's nuts, but what the heck...
New cell: Problem solved. Turns out the foam was breaking apart and upon acceleration a chunk was covering the sump!! Who woulda thunk THAT??!!??
Cover ALL of the basics first, don't ASSume all components are working correctly...check everything!!
Good luck and let us know what happened.
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Re: Bad night at the track
[Re: 70dusterjohn]
#438354
08/15/09 11:24 AM
08/15/09 11:24 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,616
Riverside, Ca
G_bob
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,616
Riverside, Ca
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FWIW, I was running the mallory 140 in the coronet with the old motor making 550 hp or so.
With the new motor doing 770 on the dyno, Brian was concerned that the 140 wouldn't be enough pump.
I called RobbMC (before opening his business he was a design engineer at mallory) and he confirmed the 140 would be marginal at best at my new power level.
Mallory lists it as for 600 hp max (600-700 with a return style regulator), and he said they do build a safety factor into their published numbers.
They list the 250 as the recommended pump for 700-1200 hp applications.
So, the car now has a mallory 250 in it.
Based on your et's, you're makng around the same or better hp than I am, so I'm going to say the 140 just isn't enough pump.
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Re: Bad night at the track "UPADATE"
[Re: 70dusterjohn]
#438358
08/15/09 01:38 PM
08/15/09 01:38 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,872
Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,872
Weddington, N.C.
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You have to watch that you have adequate atmospheric pressure (venting) on your fuel tank/cell whenever you increase the volume of the pump, the inlet side of the pump should really (ideally) be gravity fed (it really shouldn't "suck"), 2 thinks would cause a pressure differential the first is a restriction the secongd is a lack of atmoshpheric pressure on the fuel in the tank. Increasing the flow rate can amplify a problem you didn't know you had until you made the swap. Don't forget G-forces have an effect on your effective flow rate, G forces effectively multiply the mass of the fuel in terms of GPM or Pounds/hr that's why harder launching cars have much bigger pumps than would need to run on a Dyno. Check the obvious things first....don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. 
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Re: Bad night at the track
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#438359
08/15/09 02:37 PM
08/15/09 02:37 PM
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,317
State of confusion
Thumperdart
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,317
State of confusion
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Cab`s right.........I don`t remember the exact numbers but my flow #`s went WAY up by adding a second filter but have since dumped the frams and use a Mallory 500 series canister filter. Somethings not right and like stated, I would disconnect the fuel lines at the carb and see how many seconds it takes to flow a gallon......it should be around 20-25 seconds I would think at your et.  Good luck.
72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
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Re: Bad night at the track
[Re: 70dusterjohn]
#438368
08/15/09 09:37 PM
08/15/09 09:37 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,165
Left Coast
BobR
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,165
Left Coast
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Quote:
Nope It had fuel in it, I even put more in it.. I am running a fram filter.  I was thinks that might be it. But any how its got two -8 off the tank to a Y then to the fram fiter, to the pump with -8 and to the front of the car with -8 to the regulator, and two -8s to the carb..
IMO Fram fuel filters are junk. Further more they are not intended to be suction side filters. I am not at all surprised you are having problems. Your pump is cavitating and will soon be ruined if it isn't already. You need to get a suction side filter to keep crap out of your pump and a pressure side filter for the finer stuff that gets into your carb. RobbMc from this board has everything you need.
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Re: Bad night at the track "UPADATE"
[Re: Dodgem]
#438369
08/16/09 01:58 PM
08/16/09 01:58 PM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,131
Thigh-Gap Junction
@#$%&*!
New user name, Same old jerk!
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New user name, Same old jerk!
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,131
Thigh-Gap Junction
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Quote:
I heard Fram filters cause a big restriction??
IMO Fram fuel filters are junk.
Point of reference. My Mallory 140 sucked 1 gallon in 25 seconds through my OLD Fram and 1/2" lines. That's free-flow to the regulator. I changed to a stated 500gpm stainless mesh canister filter and it flowed exactly the same.
It ran 10.39@128 on E53 last night but was a little rich on that run with 94/95 jets.
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Re: Bad night at the track "UPADATE"
[Re: @#$%&*!]
#438371
08/16/09 07:12 PM
08/16/09 07:12 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,165
Left Coast
BobR
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,165
Left Coast
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Quote:
Quote:
I heard Fram filters cause a big restriction??
IMO Fram fuel filters are junk.
Point of reference. My Mallory 140 sucked 1 gallon in 25 seconds through my OLD Fram and 1/2" lines. That's free-flow to the regulator. I changed to a stated 500gpm stainless mesh canister filter and it flowed exactly the same.
It ran [Email]10.39@128[/Email] on E53 last night but was a little rich on that run with 94/95 jets.
THE CORRECT way to plumb a high perf fuel system-any HP fuel system is to use a 100 micron filter before the pump and a 10 micron after. You also need at least a number 10(12 is better for some bigger pumps) or two number 8's y'd on the inbound into the 100 micron filter then outbound to the pump. Anything other than this may well cause the pump to cavitate and by your description that exactly what your's is doing. If you plumb your present pump correctly it probably will do the job.
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Re: Bad night at the track
[Re: BobR]
#438372
08/16/09 08:50 PM
08/16/09 08:50 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:
Quote:
Nope It had fuel in it, I even put more in it.. I am running a fram filter. I was thinks that might be it. But any how its got two -8 off the tank to a Y then to the fram fiter, to the pump with -8 and to the front of the car with -8 to the regulator, and two -8s to the carb..
IMO Fram fuel filters are junk. Further more they are not intended to be suction side filters. I am not at all surprised you are having problems. Your pump is cavitating and will soon be ruined if it isn't already. You need to get a suction side filter to keep crap out of your pump and a pressure side filter for the finer stuff that gets into your carb. RobbMc from this board has everything you need.
Took the words out of my mouth. 
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Re: Bad night at the track "UPADATE"
[Re: BobR]
#438373
08/16/09 09:08 PM
08/16/09 09:08 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I heard Fram filters cause a big restriction??
IMO Fram fuel filters are junk.
Point of reference. My Mallory 140 sucked 1 gallon in 25 seconds through my OLD Fram and 1/2" lines. That's free-flow to the regulator. I changed to a stated 500gpm stainless mesh canister filter and it flowed exactly the same.
It ran [Email]10.39@128[/Email] on E53 last night but was a little rich on that run with 94/95 jets.
THE CORRECT way to plumb a high perf fuel system-any HP fuel system is to use a 100 micron filter before the pump and a 10 micron after. You also need at least a number 10(12 is better for some bigger pumps) or two number 8's y'd on the inbound into the 100 micron filter then outbound to the pump. Anything other than this may well cause the pump to cavitate and by your description that exactly what your's is doing. If you plumb your present pump correctly it probably will do the job.
Inlet plumbing always needs to be bigger(2 sizes) on all fluid pumping systems. Gas pumps need to be gravity fed because gasoline cavitates real easy.
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