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Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle???
#432490
12/07/09 03:39 PM
12/07/09 03:39 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,641
San Jose,CA
migsBIG
YouTube is my go-to news source
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YouTube is my go-to news source
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,641
San Jose,CA
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With all that debate between the XV & RMS setups, nobody mentioned the MagnumForce version. Is anyone using it? Is it a viable contender with the other two or is it junk?
They have a reputation of poor fit and function....
 pure junk. alterktion is the only way to go.
that magnumforce problem was from earlier deveopments when they were doing them in the 1990's and drag racing. 15 years later, they have computer enginered components, cad designs, custom built high strenth spindles, multiple brake options, cradles designs for multiple engines a will build the frontend on the car so everything will be perfect as some cars from the factory didn't get the best geomety when they were assembled or 40+ years of driving, abuse or damage.
I've been in two cars equiped with their suspension and have to say I was impressed with the handling and balace of the rides. Unlike alterkation, they are always looking to improve technology and offer upgraded suited for the customer and the vehicle. I rode in a (altorkation) a-body with their car, and the big block in front still made it nose heavy and didn't look like it made the best use tying in the diffrent points of the car to improve it. The magnumF car I rode in was a hemi powered charger that handled fantastic and didn't plow the nose every time we hit a right turn!
In my opinion, I would say this for the manufactures:
Altercation: good for a-body guys for a cheap street/drag race application.
Magnum Force: better for street, strip, exstreme handeling application where heavy engines for B-E-body cars are being used and optimal handeling is perfered.
XVMotorsports: I have not been in any car equiped by them, so I can't offer any advice.
Still kinda shockedxon the amount of people here that post about stuff they have never even riden in or even held in their hands, just what a stranger has posted on the Internet.
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Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle???
[Re: migsBIG]
#432491
12/07/09 05:32 PM
12/07/09 05:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
patrick
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
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realistically, an XV level 1 front and rear setup (optimized factory setup) with some 17-18" rims and good tires (say, a BFG KDW, michelin pilot sport, or Bridestone potenza RE050) will be more than enough suspension for 99% of the drivers out there and should pull ~1G or a little more on a skidpad.
you're looking at $2300+ rebuild parts, and maybe some tubular A arms (if you need/want more caster) for front and rear suspension....
of course, with an alterKtion you get rack and pinion steering, better header clearance (which doesn't buy you much without custom headers anyway), and potentially cheaper big brake upgrades.
if it were me, if you're just looking for crisp, modern street handling/feel, I'd seriously look into the XV level 1, some 17" rims with 235/55R17's or 255/50R17's (or 18" with 235/50, or 255/45R18) and a firm feel stage 3 steering box.
if you're looking to upgrade the brakes, I'd go for Dr. Diff's 13" front and 12" rear kits that utilize a lot of stock late model mustang components (calipers, etc), so replacement parts are easy to find.
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
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Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle???
[Re: rjsjea]
#432493
12/07/09 08:45 PM
12/07/09 08:45 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,641
San Jose,CA
migsBIG
YouTube is my go-to news source
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YouTube is my go-to news source
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,641
San Jose,CA
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Quote:
I have seen pics of failed XV and Magnumforce systems (saved the MF ones)........havent seen one failed AlterK. 
I would love to see those pictures, when those pictures were taken, what the car was doing when it failed, what kind of car and who installed the system.
As for alternation not failing, dosent means it hasent happened (not everybody reads Moparts).
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Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle???
[Re: Jim_Lusk]
#432494
12/07/09 09:36 PM
12/07/09 09:36 PM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 342
dracut mass usa
sparcy
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 342
dracut mass usa
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ordered magnumcrap they cant even get the order wright and support was none they su%&*k, they told me they dont even care about the east coast when I asked if they were going to the nations ,bad bad attitude still have the junk they sent me ..my car 1969 charger big block 500inch eng firm feel 3 box ,adjustable strut rods hotchkis uppers, boxed factory lowers hotchkis sway bar 75 dart spindles 76 charger brackets 71 charger calipers 12 inch cop car rotors 1973 b body combination valve. front end set up by a cup car driver ,same set up as the mr angry car from ny in the bull run tv show go to youtube type in mr angry and you can watch his cars in testing
IF YOU ARE NOT WRECKING STUFF YOU ARE NOT LEARNING !
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Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle???
[Re: migsBIG]
#432496
12/07/09 11:06 PM
12/07/09 11:06 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 15,118
85086
moparpollack
Lil Herman
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Lil Herman
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 15,118
85086
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Quote:
Quote:
I have seen pics of failed XV and Magnumforce systems (saved the MF ones)........havent seen one failed AlterK.
I would love to see those pictures, when those pictures were taken, what the car was doing when it failed, what kind of car and who installed the system.
Bigdad and I were at the Lonestar Nats this year when a guy with a MF equipped Cuda snapped a bolt backing up into a parking spot. The car was laying on the ground for 4 hours. This was the third time it happened to him with this car.
The parts broke at a speed under 5 mph. 
56 Plaza 63 D100 step side 67 Coronet, 68 Roadrunner, 69 Super Bees, 69 Coronet 500 convertible, 70 Roadrunner Post, 79 D150 360, and a severe case of Mopar a,d,d
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Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle???
[Re: Greg55_99]
#432497
12/07/09 11:21 PM
12/07/09 11:21 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,692
Seattle WA
RichV
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,692
Seattle WA
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Something I did not know.. but do now...
http://www.schwartzperformance.com/news.aspx?newsid=33
Apparently, they are now working on an E body frame.
Greg
I really don't understand why there are a lot of people using the four link real suspensions. There is a lot of bind in these suspension due to the out of plane motion in the upper links. GM suspension engineers didn't even like these designs. A simple three or four link with a panhard bar (or watts link) get rids of this problem. Okay the four link packages much better, but these are custom application not production. A few more dollars spent on the more sophisticated design would result in a much better suspension.
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Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle???
[Re: migsBIG]
#432500
12/09/09 11:55 AM
12/09/09 11:55 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,085
NotRussia
2fast4yourBrain
Whack top Dodger
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Whack top Dodger
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,085
NotRussia
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Quote:
Unlike alterkation, they are always looking to improve technology and offer upgraded suited for the customer and the vehicle.
Where'd you hear that?
Bill improved his original design and was kind enough to swap out my whole kit I ordered awhile ago and give me his newer design of frame and control arms FREE OF CHARGE! I just had to pay for shipping.
I wish someone would offer a bolt-in or minor weld-in rear IRS setup. Bill's not offering the trick IRS/Viper setup that's on the Goodmark 'Cuda (as seen on Chop Cut Rebuild), no matter how much I try to twist his arm.
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Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle???
[Re: 2fast4yourBrain]
#432501
12/09/09 01:04 PM
12/09/09 01:04 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,337
the house on the left.
cogen80
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,337
the house on the left.
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Quote:
Unlike alterkation, they are always looking to improve technology and offer upgraded suited for the customer and the vehicle.
this just shows that you know nothing about the alter-k and your just trying to stick up for your buddy over at magnumforce.
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Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle???
[Re: cogen80]
#432502
12/10/09 04:31 AM
12/10/09 04:31 AM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 523
Right here
HP2
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 523
Right here
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If we just could drop the talk about how bad different brands are. I assume none here has trash tested all brands on the market anyway. Everything can brake and as long as you don't have all variables you cant judge.
70 W100 Power Wagon. 318 4-spd
70 Sport Fury 440 2dr HT
71 Duster 340
71 Charger Super Bee - 383/727
72 Charger "Sabotage" - 440/727 - Street/Strip
78 Warlock in beautiful patina
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Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle???
[Re: HP2]
#432503
12/10/09 10:39 AM
12/10/09 10:39 AM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 190
USA
indy dart
member
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member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 190
USA
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I installed an alterkation on my Dart. Prior to this I had done very little resto or mechanical work. The installation was a breeze and it handles so much better. Bill is good to work with you also.
1970 B5 v-code Superbird
1971 Dodge Charger R/T in GA4
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Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle???
[Re: indy dart]
#432504
12/10/09 12:34 PM
12/10/09 12:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,387
Pikes Peak Country
TC@HP2
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,387
Pikes Peak Country
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HP2, since you are building what amounts to a competition car without a set of rules to conform to, perhaps you should give a basic upgraded stock set up a try first. This can be done for a very reasonable price, and if you find you can out drive its capability, then you can decide to upgrade and refine it further or swap to an AlterK or XV set up and sell off your stock upgrade parts to recoup some money.
So, assumptions I'm working from; E body Cuda with a small block in stock location, around 3400# race weight with a 55% front weight bias. Suspension set up would be; 1.22 front t-bars, 1.125 front sway bar, 120# rear leafs, a .95 or 1.0 axle hung rear sway bar and some QA1 or Varishock adjustable units. Maybe some adjustable strut rods to fine tune the lower control arm location, lower control arm braces to resist sway bar deflection, offset upper arm bushings to gain additional caster. A bump steer analysis wouldn't be a bad idea either. At least poly bushings everywhere possible, maybe even delrin. It goes without saying that significant and extensive chassis reinforcement is part of this plan as well. Adding torque boxes, subframe connectors, cage, and/or other sorts of triangulation will be required.
This combo should produce a car that is pretty close to neuteral and almost as capabale as the stock system can get, without getting into the expensive and tricked out Hotckis pieces, which would add a further level of refinement. Figure it will cost $1500-2000 if you shop carefully and negotiate for some used parts along the way. Adding the Hotchkis stuff could add another $1500 on top of that, which puts you close to entry level AlterK front end territory. So, at that point, you'd have to ask yourself is it worth the extra $$ to further refine the stock set up or go for aftermarket system that is more adjustable and has more available spring rates to play with.
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Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle???
[Re: TC@HP2]
#432505
12/11/09 06:27 AM
12/11/09 06:27 AM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,165
Florida
cataclysm80
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,165
Florida
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Quote:
lower control arm braces to resist sway bar deflection,
Could you say a little more about these lower control arm braces, or does someone have a picture? I'm having trouble imagining them.
What would be the effect of having these items (including your other suggestions) on a car that did not have any additional stiffening beyond the factory torque boxes. Street driven, not competition in my case. Would there be any handling improvement? Would the lack of extra stiffening potentially cause the metal to buckle somewhere while driving?
Thanks for your very informative posts!
Tav
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Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle???
[Re: 540challenger]
#432507
12/11/09 10:38 AM
12/11/09 10:38 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,712
Sacramento, Ca
Darius
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,712
Sacramento, Ca
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Comment about the TTI headers made to fit the AlterKtion...
I used a 5.7 from a 07 Charger, thinking I could just get a set of TTI's that would fit.....I talked to the engineer at TTI and he said they cannot make a header fit around the starter in my set up ( I used the 5 speed auto trans from the Charger as well. Not saying this would be the case with a different transmission but it is something you may want to talk directly with TTI about BEFORE you pull any triggers.
Driving modern convenience in classic beauty
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Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle???
[Re: cataclysm80]
#432508
12/11/09 03:37 PM
12/11/09 03:37 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,387
Pikes Peak Country
TC@HP2
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,387
Pikes Peak Country
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Quote:
What would be the effect of having these items (including your other suggestions) on a car that did not have any additional stiffening beyond the factory torque boxes. Street driven, not competition in my case. Would there be any handling improvement? Would the lack of extra stiffening potentially cause the metal to buckle somewhere while driving?
Yes, there would be a handling improvement using that set up as it is a big step up on wheel rates from original and is in the upper range of what a lot of "pro-touring" type cars are running. However, you don't realize the full potential of the changes when the uni-body structure starts flexing. When your putting suspension laods that are this big of an increase, your body is going to be moving around. Similarly, once the body becomes an active participant in the suspension motion, handling can become unpredictable as you expose each new weak area. Check out the XV video on chassis movement and you'll be suprised how much these things move in their stock form. While it is unlikely that your car would just come apart, over time it is possible that you would begin to pop spot welds here and there and as each weld yields, you increase the load on remaining points. That could eventually lead to buckling or tearing an exterior panel. My guess would be the first place to start showing fatigue would be seams where the roof attaches.
Now, if you want to avoid the rollcage and still keep a stealth appearance while strengthening the car, you could stitch weld all the seams of all the sheet metal structures. An x brace under the car instead of conventional subframe connectors is also out if sight, out of mind. The XV under fender and core support pieces are also helpful and not easily noticeable. The area of the car most in need of support is going to be from about the front suspension points to around the end of the door area where the leafs springs mount. This area is subjected to the most torsional loading and any additional support you can provide here goes a long way to firming up the whole structure. Would it be enough to avoid damage, hmmm, maybe. It won't be as solid as a roll bar/cage set up, but it a lot better than stock.
Even if you aren't planning a step up in wheel rates, a solid foundation goes a long way towards improving every aspect of driving your car from smooth cruising and quick steering response, to eliminating squeaks and rattles. IMO all of our old cars should have sub frame connectors in them at a minimum.
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. Do you know what mods it has?
