HELP! This is driving me crazy... [UPDATED]
#358396
06/26/09 10:11 AM
06/26/09 10:11 AM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943 San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
1968RR
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
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I've owned my car now for 10 years, and in all the time that I've owned it I've NEVER been this frustrated with it. Here's my problem: About two months ago I replaced my old engine with a new one. The specs for the new engine are as follows: stock 440 block (.055” over), stock forged crank, no-name aftermarket H-beam rods (w/ 7/16” bolts), KB forged pistons, Indy SR OOTB (gasket port), Indy 2D Intake, 850 cfm Holley DP, 440 Source roller rockers, TTI 2 1/8” headers & 3" exhaust, Pro Comp dist., 7 qt. pan, .520”/.550” lift, 242/252 (.050”) and 310/320 duration hydraulic flat-tappet cam. The compression ratio is about 11.5:1 and I run a race gas mixture. The top end of my old engine was the same (except for the cam) and I used the same 440 Source starter and B&M converter (3200 stall) that I had with my old set-up. While I was moving the distributor from one engine to the next, I noticed that the rotor needed to be replaced and that the anode coming from the coil was missing (I guess the spring that was behind it had been serving as the new anode for a while). I replaced the cap and rotor and also bought 4 straight high-heat boots for the 4 cylinders at the rear of the engine that were near the headers. Everything seemed fine until one day, while trying to get the timing in, my starter sheered off a half dozen teeth from my ring gear on my converter (it's a 727 car). I dropped the transmission, sent the converter away to have a new gear welded on and put it back in. I fired up the engine and - TA-DAH! - off come a dozen teeth. Rinse, repeat. So now I'm on new ring gear #2 and I retarded the timing and this seemed to fix the problem (I'm at about 16 degrees initial). Yesterday I went into the garage to start it up, and when it fired I could hear that it was back-firing. I checked to make sure that all of the plug wires were good, and I fired it up again, only to hear the all-too-familiar sound of a tooth being sheered (why isn't the starter bendix softer than the gear teeth?). This time I was lucky: only a half a tooth is missing and I figure that I can take it to a welder and have them fix it without having to remove my transmission. Obviously, I'm scared to try and find the problem through trial-and-error at this point because I don't want to lose any more teeth in the process. The problem is definitely in the ignition somewhere (and yes - I checked the firing order). Has anyone ever had anything like this happen? This is really frustrating and I appreciate any help that you can give! If I don't get this thing figured out soon, you may be seeing a '68 Roadrunner on the "For Sale" board.
Last edited by 1968RR; 07/09/09 03:12 PM.
"When I'm in a slump, I comfort myself by saying if I believe in dinosaurs, then somewhere, they must be believing in me. And if they believe in me, then I can believe in me." - Mookie Wilson
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Re: HELP! This is driving me crazy... [LONG]
[Re: satgtx]
#358399
06/26/09 10:33 AM
06/26/09 10:33 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041
Lincoln Nebraska
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put your timing back where it was, fix the ring gear teeth & get a new starter.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: HELP! This is driving me crazy... [LONG]
[Re: RapidRobert]
#358400
06/26/09 10:55 AM
06/26/09 10:55 AM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943 San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
1968RR
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
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I've bought a new starter when I swapped out the last ring gear. The starter is definitely what's cutting off teeth. The starter/ring gear geometry shouldn't be any different than it was with my last engine (440 blocks are all basically the same). I didn't have to shim the last starter, and I didn't shim this one. Again - I keep thinking that the problem lies in ignition...
"When I'm in a slump, I comfort myself by saying if I believe in dinosaurs, then somewhere, they must be believing in me. And if they believe in me, then I can believe in me." - Mookie Wilson
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Re: HELP! This is driving me crazy... [LONG]
[Re: buildanother]
#358402
06/26/09 11:11 AM
06/26/09 11:11 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041
Lincoln Nebraska
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pull the starter teeth forward into the ring gear teeth & as said visually check the amt of engagement & see if anything looks off. The starter gear needs to be forward enough for full engagement and the in/out(sideways) distance needs to be good also
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: HELP! This is driving me crazy... [LONG]
[Re: buildanother]
#358403
06/26/09 11:11 AM
06/26/09 11:11 AM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943 San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
1968RR
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
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"When I'm in a slump, I comfort myself by saying if I believe in dinosaurs, then somewhere, they must be believing in me. And if they believe in me, then I can believe in me." - Mookie Wilson
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Re: HELP! This is driving me crazy... [LONG]
[Re: 1968RR]
#358404
06/26/09 11:27 AM
06/26/09 11:27 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,051 Slidell, La.
doctor_mopar
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,051
Slidell, La.
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After a good inspection of everything as suggested. I would spin the engine without ignition, and make sure the starter spins it right. If it does, I would suspect a possible problem in the distrbutor. Have it tested, or better yet, try another distributor.
------------------------ It doesn't matter what you do.........As long as you look good doing it !
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Re: HELP! This is driving me crazy... [LONG]
[Re: radar]
#358406
06/26/09 02:48 PM
06/26/09 02:48 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,758 North Dakota
6PakBee
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,758
North Dakota
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What kind of ignition are you running?
"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
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Re: HELP! This is driving me crazy... [LONG]
[Re: cptn60]
#358408
06/26/09 03:37 PM
06/26/09 03:37 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943 San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
1968RR
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
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I'm running a Pro Comp distributor and a stock-style coil. As I mentioned, I recently replaced the cap and rotor. The cam was installed "straight up" just a few weeks ago. I checked to make sure that it wasn't off several times.
"When I'm in a slump, I comfort myself by saying if I believe in dinosaurs, then somewhere, they must be believing in me. And if they believe in me, then I can believe in me." - Mookie Wilson
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Re: HELP! This is driving me crazy... [LONG]
[Re: 1968RR]
#358409
06/26/09 04:05 PM
06/26/09 04:05 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,095 Bloomington, Illernoise
cptn60
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,095
Bloomington, Illernoise
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Quote:
Here's my problem: About two months ago I replaced my old engine with a new one. The top end of my old engine was the same (except for the cam) and I used the same 440 Source starter and B&M converter (3200 stall) that I had with my old set-up.
Everything seemed fine until one day, while trying to get the timing in, my starter sheered off a half dozen teeth from my ring gear on my converter (it's a 727 car). I fired up the engine and - TA-DAH! - off come a dozen teeth. Rinse, repeat. So now I'm on new ring gear #2 and I retarded the timing and this seemed to fix the problem (I'm at about 16 degrees initial). I fired it up again, only to hear the all-too-familiar sound of a tooth being sheered. Obviously, I'm scared to try and find the problem through trial-and-error at this point because I don't want to lose any more teeth in the process. The problem is definitely in the ignition somewhere (and yes - I checked the firing order). Has anyone ever had anything like this happen? This is really frustrating and I appreciate any help that you can give! If I don't get this thing figured out soon, you may be seeing a '68 Roadrunner on the "For Sale" board.
I had an identical problem years ago. I chased it with carbs, distributors, coils, plugs, wires, resistors only to find a jumped timing chain. New or not things break and bend. Doesn't cost anything to pull a valve cover,put #1 piston at TDC, and VERIFY the cam timing. If it's right, you have eliminated one possibility. If it ISN'T( I suspect this to be the case) guess what? Good luck, keep us posted ]
This space available for rent
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Re: HELP! This is driving me crazy... [LONG]
[Re: 1968RR]
#358411
06/26/09 10:24 PM
06/26/09 10:24 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 10,228 Colleyville
3hundred
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 10,228
Colleyville
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I've had ignition and starter problems before. In my case I was breaking starters on a regular basis, the nose would crack and open then no more starter. I never hurt the ring gear. Let us know what you find out, your problem makes mine look simple.
Robert
'68 Fury Convertible '69 300 Convertible '15 Durango 5.7 Hemi '16 300 S Hemi
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Re: HELP! This is driving me crazy... [LONG]
[Re: 1968RR]
#358412
06/27/09 07:37 AM
06/27/09 07:37 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,051 Slidell, La.
doctor_mopar
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,051
Slidell, La.
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The big block single bolt ( for mounting cam gear ) have been known to not hold well enough, especially on modified engines. The gear could have spun to some extent on the cam( sheared the woodruff key ). If you looked at the timing dots on the cam and crank, it would look like it was ok, but the cam would be in the wrong position. It could have seen extra stress when you were timing the engine. A backfire would be hard on it. If you have the three bolt cam gear, disregard this.
------------------------ It doesn't matter what you do.........As long as you look good doing it !
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Re: HELP! This is driving me crazy... [LONG]
[Re: doctor_mopar]
#358413
06/27/09 01:17 PM
06/27/09 01:17 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943 San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
1968RR
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
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Thanks for the replies. The cam that I have is new as are the timing chain and the gears. Swapping the cam out wouldn't exactly be fun (it involves pulling the heads since I have Indy SRs), so I'm really hoping that that isn't it. If I have the #1 piston at TDC, how exactly do I check to make sure that the cam is correctly timed? Thanks in advance.
"When I'm in a slump, I comfort myself by saying if I believe in dinosaurs, then somewhere, they must be believing in me. And if they believe in me, then I can believe in me." - Mookie Wilson
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Re: HELP! This is driving me crazy... [LONG]
[Re: RapidRobert]
#358415
06/27/09 01:40 PM
06/27/09 01:40 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Quote:
If I have the #1 piston at TDC, how exactly do I check to make sure that the cam is correctly timed?
With the timing marks on TDC #1 compression, #6 should be on "rockover" which means that as you move the crank slightly back & forth(either side of TDC)on the harmonic dampener the #6 lifters will be at the same height & both moving.
Don't rely on this. Few modern cams are at "split overlap" which is what you are referring to, although this might be "OK" as a quick check, it's not difinitive
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