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HELP! This is driving me crazy... [UPDATED]
#358396
06/26/09 10:11 AM
06/26/09 10:11 AM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
1968RR
OP
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OP
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San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
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I've owned my car now for 10 years, and in all the time that I've owned it I've NEVER been this frustrated with it. Here's my problem: About two months ago I replaced my old engine with a new one. The specs for the new engine are as follows: stock 440 block (.055” over), stock forged crank, no-name aftermarket H-beam rods (w/ 7/16” bolts), KB forged pistons, Indy SR OOTB (gasket port), Indy 2D Intake, 850 cfm Holley DP, 440 Source roller rockers, TTI 2 1/8” headers & 3" exhaust, Pro Comp dist., 7 qt. pan, .520”/.550” lift, 242/252 (.050”) and 310/320 duration hydraulic flat-tappet cam. The compression ratio is about 11.5:1 and I run a race gas mixture. The top end of my old engine was the same (except for the cam) and I used the same 440 Source starter and B&M converter (3200 stall) that I had with my old set-up. While I was moving the distributor from one engine to the next, I noticed that the rotor needed to be replaced and that the anode coming from the coil was missing (I guess the spring that was behind it had been serving as the new anode for a while). I replaced the cap and rotor and also bought 4 straight high-heat boots for the 4 cylinders at the rear of the engine that were near the headers. Everything seemed fine until one day, while trying to get the timing in, my starter sheered off a half dozen teeth from my ring gear on my converter (it's a 727 car). I dropped the transmission, sent the converter away to have a new gear welded on and put it back in. I fired up the engine and - TA-DAH! - off come a dozen teeth. Rinse, repeat. So now I'm on new ring gear #2 and I retarded the timing and this seemed to fix the problem (I'm at about 16 degrees initial). Yesterday I went into the garage to start it up, and when it fired I could hear that it was back-firing. I checked to make sure that all of the plug wires were good, and I fired it up again, only to hear the all-too-familiar sound of a tooth being sheered (why isn't the starter bendix softer than the gear teeth?). This time I was lucky: only a half a tooth is missing and I figure that I can take it to a welder and have them fix it without having to remove my transmission. Obviously, I'm scared to try and find the problem through trial-and-error at this point because I don't want to lose any more teeth in the process. The problem is definitely in the ignition somewhere (and yes - I checked the firing order). Has anyone ever had anything like this happen? This is really frustrating and I appreciate any help that you can give!  If I don't get this thing figured out soon, you may be seeing a '68 Roadrunner on the "For Sale" board. 
Last edited by 1968RR; 07/09/09 03:12 PM.
"When I'm in a slump, I comfort myself by saying if I believe in dinosaurs, then somewhere, they must be believing in me. And if they believe in me, then I can believe in me." - Mookie Wilson
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Re: HELP! This is driving me crazy... [LONG]
[Re: satgtx]
#358399
06/26/09 10:33 AM
06/26/09 10:33 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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put your timing back where it was, fix the ring gear teeth & get a new starter.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: HELP! This is driving me crazy... [LONG]
[Re: RapidRobert]
#358400
06/26/09 10:55 AM
06/26/09 10:55 AM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
1968RR
OP
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OP
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Joined: Nov 2005
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San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
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I've bought a new starter when I swapped out the last ring gear. The starter is definitely what's cutting off teeth. The starter/ring gear geometry shouldn't be any different than it was with my last engine (440 blocks are all basically the same). I didn't have to shim the last starter, and I didn't shim this one.
Again - I keep thinking that the problem lies in ignition...
"When I'm in a slump, I comfort myself by saying if I believe in dinosaurs, then somewhere, they must be believing in me. And if they believe in me, then I can believe in me." - Mookie Wilson
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Re: HELP! This is driving me crazy... [LONG]
[Re: buildanother]
#358402
06/26/09 11:11 AM
06/26/09 11:11 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
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Lincoln Nebraska
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pull the starter teeth forward into the ring gear teeth & as said visually check the amt of engagement & see if anything looks off. The starter gear needs to be forward enough for full engagement and the in/out(sideways) distance needs to be good also
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: HELP! This is driving me crazy... [LONG]
[Re: buildanother]
#358403
06/26/09 11:11 AM
06/26/09 11:11 AM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
1968RR
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
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"When I'm in a slump, I comfort myself by saying if I believe in dinosaurs, then somewhere, they must be believing in me. And if they believe in me, then I can believe in me." - Mookie Wilson
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Re: HELP! This is driving me crazy... [LONG]
[Re: 1968RR]
#358404
06/26/09 11:27 AM
06/26/09 11:27 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,043
Slidell, La.
doctor_mopar
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,043
Slidell, La.
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After a good inspection of everything as suggested. I would spin the engine without ignition, and make sure the starter spins it right. If it does, I would suspect a possible problem in the distrbutor. Have it tested, or better yet, try another distributor.
------------------------ It doesn't matter what you do.........As long as you look good doing it !
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Re: HELP! This is driving me crazy... [LONG]
[Re: radar]
#358406
06/26/09 02:48 PM
06/26/09 02:48 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,706
North Dakota
6PakBee
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,706
North Dakota
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What kind of ignition are you running?
"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
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Re: HELP! This is driving me crazy... [LONG]
[Re: cptn60]
#358408
06/26/09 03:37 PM
06/26/09 03:37 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
1968RR
OP
top fuel
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OP
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
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I'm running a Pro Comp distributor and a stock-style coil. As I mentioned, I recently replaced the cap and rotor.
The cam was installed "straight up" just a few weeks ago. I checked to make sure that it wasn't off several times.
"When I'm in a slump, I comfort myself by saying if I believe in dinosaurs, then somewhere, they must be believing in me. And if they believe in me, then I can believe in me." - Mookie Wilson
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Re: HELP! This is driving me crazy... [LONG]
[Re: 1968RR]
#358409
06/26/09 04:05 PM
06/26/09 04:05 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,095
Bloomington, Illernoise
cptn60
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,095
Bloomington, Illernoise
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Quote:
Here's my problem:
About two months ago I replaced my old engine with a new one. The top end of my old engine was the same (except for the cam) and I used the same 440 Source starter and B&M converter (3200 stall) that I had with my old set-up.
Everything seemed fine until one day, while trying to get the timing in, my starter sheered off a half dozen teeth from my ring gear on my converter (it's a 727 car). I fired up the engine and - TA-DAH! - off come a dozen teeth. Rinse, repeat.
So now I'm on new ring gear #2 and I retarded the timing and this seemed to fix the problem (I'm at about 16 degrees initial). I fired it up again, only to hear the all-too-familiar sound of a tooth being sheered. Obviously, I'm scared to try and find the problem through trial-and-error at this point because I don't want to lose any more teeth in the process.
The problem is definitely in the ignition somewhere (and yes - I checked the firing order).
Has anyone ever had anything like this happen?
This is really frustrating and I appreciate any help that you can give!
If I don't get this thing figured out soon, you may be seeing a '68 Roadrunner on the "For Sale" board.
I had an identical problem years ago. I chased it with carbs, distributors, coils, plugs, wires, resistors only to find a jumped timing chain. New or not things break and bend. Doesn't cost anything to pull a valve cover,put #1 piston at TDC, and VERIFY the cam timing. If it's right, you have eliminated one possibility. If it ISN'T( I suspect this to be the case) guess what? Good luck, keep us posted  ]
This space available for rent
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Re: HELP! This is driving me crazy... [LONG]
[Re: 1968RR]
#358411
06/26/09 10:24 PM
06/26/09 10:24 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 10,228
Colleyville
3hundred
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 10,228
Colleyville
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I've had ignition and starter problems before. In my case I was breaking starters on a regular basis, the nose would crack and open then no more starter. I never hurt the ring gear. Let us know what you find out, your problem makes mine look simple.
Robert
'68 Fury Convertible
'69 300 Convertible
'15 Durango 5.7 Hemi
'16 300 S Hemi
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Re: HELP! This is driving me crazy... [LONG]
[Re: 1968RR]
#358412
06/27/09 07:37 AM
06/27/09 07:37 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,043
Slidell, La.
doctor_mopar
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,043
Slidell, La.
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The big block single bolt ( for mounting cam gear ) have been known to not hold well enough, especially on modified engines. The gear could have spun to some extent on the cam( sheared the woodruff key ). If you looked at the timing dots on the cam and crank, it would look like it was ok, but the cam would be in the wrong position. It could have seen extra stress when you were timing the engine. A backfire would be hard on it. If you have the three bolt cam gear, disregard this.
------------------------ It doesn't matter what you do.........As long as you look good doing it !
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Re: HELP! This is driving me crazy... [LONG]
[Re: doctor_mopar]
#358413
06/27/09 01:17 PM
06/27/09 01:17 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
1968RR
OP
top fuel
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OP
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
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Thanks for the replies. The cam that I have is new as are the timing chain and the gears. Swapping the cam out wouldn't exactly be fun (it involves pulling the heads since I have Indy SRs), so I'm really hoping that that isn't it.
If I have the #1 piston at TDC, how exactly do I check to make sure that the cam is correctly timed?
Thanks in advance.
"When I'm in a slump, I comfort myself by saying if I believe in dinosaurs, then somewhere, they must be believing in me. And if they believe in me, then I can believe in me." - Mookie Wilson
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Re: HELP! This is driving me crazy... [LONG]
[Re: RapidRobert]
#358415
06/27/09 01:40 PM
06/27/09 01:40 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Quote:
If I have the #1 piston at TDC, how exactly do I check to make sure that the cam is correctly timed?
With the timing marks on TDC #1 compression, #6 should be on "rockover" which means that as you move the crank slightly back & forth(either side of TDC)on the harmonic dampener the #6 lifters will be at the same height & both moving.
Don't rely on this. Few modern cams are at "split overlap" which is what you are referring to, although this might be "OK" as a quick check, it's not difinitive
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Re: HELP! This is driving me crazy... [LONG]
[Re: RapidRobert]
#358416
06/27/09 01:40 PM
06/27/09 01:40 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
1968RR
OP
top fuel
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OP
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
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Quote:
Quote:
If I have the #1 piston at TDC, how exactly do I check to make sure that the cam is correctly timed?
With the timing marks on TDC #1 compression, #6 should be on "rockover" which means that as you move the crank slightly back & forth(either side of TDC)on the harmonic dampener the #6 lifters will be at the same height & both moving.
Is this the only way to do it without having take off the water pump, timing cover, etc.?
Doesn't some of that the #6 valves are doing depend on the cam profile?
"When I'm in a slump, I comfort myself by saying if I believe in dinosaurs, then somewhere, they must be believing in me. And if they believe in me, then I can believe in me." - Mookie Wilson
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Re: HELP! This is driving me crazy... [LONG]
[Re: RapidRobert]
#358418
06/27/09 02:21 PM
06/27/09 02:21 PM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
Dodgem
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
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I had one of those Chinese starters and after three ring gears went back to my old reliable mopar performance on and no more broken ring gears. looks like the Chinese starter holds crooked off the block. A friend had this problem too 3 or 4 ring gears then ground the block till the starter sat nice and straight! I personally won't try that $%@ again. 3 ring gears in 3 weeks sucked big time. only time in 33 years with this car I had a ring gear problem and now 2 1/2 years without a problem again just using my 1991 MP performance one though I had it rebuilt this winter!! 
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Re: HELP! This is driving me crazy... [LONG]
[Re: Dodgem]
#358419
06/27/09 05:09 PM
06/27/09 05:09 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
1968RR
OP
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OP
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
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Quote:
I had one of those Chinese starters and after three ring gears went back to my old reliable mopar performance on and no more broken ring gears.
looks like the Chinese starter holds crooked off the block. A friend had this problem too 3 or 4 ring gears then ground the block till the starter sat nice and straight!
I personally won't try that $%@ again. 3 ring gears in 3 weeks sucked big time. only time in 33 years with this car I had a ring gear problem and now 2 1/2 years without a problem again just using my 1991 MP performance one though I had it rebuilt this winter!!
This starter/727/converter combo worked fine with my last motor. Since the starter is bolted directly into the transmission, I don't see how the new engine would have made a difference (if the starter is to blame).
But there could be something that I'm missing... 
"When I'm in a slump, I comfort myself by saying if I believe in dinosaurs, then somewhere, they must be believing in me. And if they believe in me, then I can believe in me." - Mookie Wilson
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Re: HELP! This is driving me crazy... [LONG]
[Re: RapidRobert]
#358420
06/28/09 12:32 PM
06/28/09 12:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,043
Slidell, La.
doctor_mopar
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,043
Slidell, La.
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The kickback/ backfire can have an effect on shearing the woodruff key in the cam .
------------------------ It doesn't matter what you do.........As long as you look good doing it !
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Re: HELP! This is driving me crazy... [UPDATED]
[Re: doctor_mopar]
#358421
07/09/09 03:06 PM
07/09/09 03:06 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
1968RR
OP
top fuel
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OP
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
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So I took out a new set of teeth today...  I hope that the 4th time is the charm...I'm ordering a new MP starter (instead of the 440 Source one) and I'm going to go ahead and buy a new converter (I'll probably fix and sell the old one once it's out). When I fired up my car earlier today, it back-fired a few times, but only at low RPM. At higher RPMs it seemed fine. Once it was running hot I advanced the timing and I think that the low RPM back-fire went away (the car is VERY loud, so it's kind of hard to tell). This makes me think that my problem ISN'T with the cam timing, but I might replace the cam with a three-bolt soon anyway. I'm thinking that the starter I have just isn't kicking out the bendix far enough, and the high compression is killing the teeth. I hope the new starter solves the problem. More $$$ and time... Any comments / suggestions?
"When I'm in a slump, I comfort myself by saying if I believe in dinosaurs, then somewhere, they must be believing in me. And if they believe in me, then I can believe in me." - Mookie Wilson
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Re: HELP! This is driving me crazy... [UPDATED]
[Re: stumpy]
#358423
07/09/09 03:41 PM
07/09/09 03:41 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
1968RR
OP
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OP
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
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I have the initial timing set at about 12 degrees BTDC when I start it, and I'm advancing it to about 18 BTDC initial once it's started.
"When I'm in a slump, I comfort myself by saying if I believe in dinosaurs, then somewhere, they must be believing in me. And if they believe in me, then I can believe in me." - Mookie Wilson
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Re: HELP! This is driving me crazy... [UPDATED]
[Re: 1968RR]
#358424
07/09/09 08:46 PM
07/09/09 08:46 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,789
Hamilton, Ontario Canada
Magnum
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,789
Hamilton, Ontario Canada
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Hard to believe this is because of timing or compression.
I would think if the starter can't turn the engine. It would sit there and melt the starter wire off before it would sheer the teeth off.
If it did have enough nuts to grind off teeth. Why wouldn't it just kill teeth where it is. Not all the way around.
69 Super Bee, 93 Mustang LX, 04 Allure Super
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Re: HELP! This is driving me crazy... [UPDATED]
[Re: Magnum]
#358425
07/10/09 10:15 AM
07/10/09 10:15 AM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
1968RR
OP
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OP
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San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
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The one thing that I'm sure of is that it's the starter bendix that's taking off the teeth. It's not taking off all of the teeth, just the ones that it comes into contact with. I'm thinking that maybe the 440 Source starter just isn't kicking out the bendix far enough, and the combination of compression and lots of torque (since the bendix is just barely engaging with the teeth) is what's killing the teeth.
"When I'm in a slump, I comfort myself by saying if I believe in dinosaurs, then somewhere, they must be believing in me. And if they believe in me, then I can believe in me." - Mookie Wilson
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Re: HELP! This is driving me crazy... [LONG]
[Re: Jwilli500]
#358427
07/11/09 10:35 AM
07/11/09 10:35 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 671
Wisconsin USA
Bill MeLater
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 671
Wisconsin USA
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Quote:
Seems like I remember that there was occasionally a slight problem on some big blocks that some of the mini starters actually hit aganst the block and caused a mis alignment. Some slight grinding on the block was necessary? It varied from block to block, you now have adifferent block right? See if a piece of paper will slide between the block and the starter. If it is hitting the block it wont sit square with the transmission.EXACTLY: Not all blocks are the same..The easy fix is to simply grind the starter case instead of the block. Bet that'll fix your problem. 
Quote:
This starter/727/converter combo worked fine with my last motor. Since the starter is bolted directly into the transmission, I don't see how the new engine would have made a difference (if the starter is to blame).
But there could be something that I'm missing...
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Re: HELP! This is driving me crazy... [SOLVED!!!]
[Re: Bill MeLater]
#358428
09/07/09 02:01 PM
09/07/09 02:01 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
1968RR
OP
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OP
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
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So I decided to replace my cam, and I noticed that my brand new chain had indeed jumped three(!) teeth on my brand new gears. This is what's been causing the backfire that's been causing my ring gear teeth to get cut off by my starter gear. Why did the chain jump? It may have had something to do with the aftermarket woodruff key that I bought. I noticed when I was removing the old cam, that the crank sprocket seemed loose on the crank/woodruff key. I checked the sprocket on an old crank that I had lying around, and it fit really snug. I don't know how I missed this when I was putting my engine together, but I guess I did. I'm not trying to blame the company that sold the woodruff key (you can guess who they are) since I should have made sure that everything was snug before I buttoned up the engine. Needless to say, however, that I'll be replacing the aftermarket key with a stock on now... I'm just glad I finally figured out what the problem was...3 months later...
"When I'm in a slump, I comfort myself by saying if I believe in dinosaurs, then somewhere, they must be believing in me. And if they believe in me, then I can believe in me." - Mookie Wilson
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Re: HELP! This is driving me crazy... [LONG]
[Re: cptn60]
#358429
09/07/09 04:17 PM
09/07/09 04:17 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,825
Sk. Canada
RemCharger
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,825
Sk. Canada
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Quote:
Check your cam timing. damhik 
 
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