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Moving up to Jesel #33898 01/10/07 04:13 PM 01/10/07 04:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon	I'll start a post on my conversion to Jesel parts. I'll update it as I get things done and pictures taken. I picked up a Jesel rocker arm kit for my Indy EZ heads and a Jesel beltdrive setup. Thanks to Scott Brown at Straightline for sourcing the parts. Neither kit came with any instructions. The belt drive I can kind of figure out but instructions with pictures would be nice. I'm not sure if Jesel doesn't have instructions for the Mopar kit or if they just didn't include them in the box. The crank gear was 0.004 undersize so I sent it back to Jesel to be fixed or replaced. There was no way I was going to attempt a 0.004 press fit onto the crankshaft. The rocker arms kit (KCS-07238) looks cool but without instructions it is a little hard to know where to start machining on the heads. The Jesel tech line said they didn't have machining instructions and to contact Indy. A fax to Russ at Indy hasn't yet resulted in any info so I'll keep trying. The rocker arms are 1.70/1.70 ratio with ball end adjusters. One thing I see from the rocker arm kit is that it uses the 440-1 offset. Evidently Jesel doesn't have a standard offset kit for the Indy SR and EZ heads but it looks like they could easily develop one by just using the exhaust rockers on the intakes. I'm going to run that idea by Jesel to see what they say. There is a forum on the Jesel website that is moderated by the Jesel markeing manager. So if you post a question up there he gets back with an answer within a day or two. I'll probably be using that forum for a few questions.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33899 01/10/07 04:28 PM 01/10/07 04:28 PM
Joined: Apr 2003 Posts: 2,708 jax. fla. 70Dustmite440 master
70Dustmite440 master Joined: Apr 2003 Posts: 2,708 jax. fla.	Quote: One thing I see from the rocker arm kit is that it uses the 440-1 offset. Evidently Jesel doesn't have a standard offset kit for the Indy SR and EZ so there is a great big offset where you don't need it? 8sec. street car, been there done that. Quitting when your ahead isn't the same as quitting. [img]https://scontent-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...amp;oe=55DB3E4C[/img] https://www.facebook.com/eric.norton.1048 R.I.P.UN.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: 70Dustmite440] #33900 01/10/07 06:38 PM 01/10/07 06:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,807 Mopar Country, Mi ccdave The Ultimate
ccdave The Ultimate Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,807 Mopar Country, Mi	Looks like you took my advice Andy. https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...rue#Post3140432 I would be more than happy to take the Comp's off your hands.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: ccdave] #33901 01/10/07 07:18 PM 01/10/07 07:18 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon	The Comp rocker arms are in use on my street 512, the Jesel setup is going on the 505 dyno mule that is being featured in some upcoming Mopar Muscle articles. Yes, the Jesel kit has a 0.800 offset for the intake rocker arms which isn't required for the EZ heads that I own. I'll have to machine pushrod clearance in the heads in order to run the bigger offsets. I would have preferred a standard offset but as far as I could tell, Jesel doesn't offer such a kit off the shelf.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33902 01/10/07 08:19 PM 01/10/07 08:19 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 32,394 Q Quicktree I Win
Quicktree I Win Q Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 32,394	I also wonder why a lot of race parts come with no instructions I guess they think everyone knows their equipment

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: Quicktree] #33903 01/10/07 08:30 PM 01/10/07 08:30 PM
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 872 NJ SSDAcuda super stock
SSDAcuda super stock Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 872 NJ	The belt comes with instructions for a BB Chevy. Jesel said thats what they ship with the belt, and it is the same basic installation. If you didn't get them with the kit, go to Jesels website as I'm sure they are on there. SS/DA 1924

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: Quicktree] #33904 01/11/07 01:27 AM 01/11/07 01:27 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon	It looks like I just need to machine down the existing rocker stands and I can reuse three of the existing drilled and tapped holes. I'll have to drill and tap another four holes for the rocker shaft stand. Jesel faxed me a drawing showing where the holes have to go but Indy hasn't provided me with info on how far to machine the stands down. If I can't reuse the existing holes then it gets a lot harder. At that point I might be better off selling the heads unmodified and buying new heads that are already drilled and tapped for Jesel stands. I guess that is the big question of the day. So far I haven't figured out a way to answer that question without just going for it and machining the stands down. Maybe I'll try to take some dimensions first and put them into the CAD system to see what kicks out.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33905 01/13/07 08:21 PM 01/13/07 08:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon	I put one of the heads up on the mill today and started to whack away at the existing rocker support stands. I never did hear anything from Indy in terms of machining instructions. I sent them a fax but they never replied so I'll just tear into it myself. 3213204-mill.jpg (376 downloads) Last edited by AndyF; 01/13/07 08:22 PM.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33906 01/13/07 08:24 PM 01/13/07 08:24 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon	I took it down until I was just skimming the large support areas above the intake runners. I'm not too sure how far to go but I know I need to go at least this far since the stand has to bolt to these large pads. 3213213-milled.jpg (307 downloads) Last edited by AndyF; 01/13/07 08:26 PM.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33907 01/13/07 08:30 PM 01/13/07 08:30 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon	Once I got it down to a smooth surface across the pads I bolted up the Jesel shaft just to double check. I'm using the existing end holes here as a temp hold down. The existing holes are 3/8 thread and the Jesel hardware is all 7/16 so all of the holes need to be redrilled and tapped. 3213227-testfit.jpg (367 downloads) Last edited by AndyF; 01/13/07 08:30 PM.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33908 01/13/07 08:37 PM 01/13/07 08:37 PM
Joined: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,981 SE Michigan TS3303 top fuel
TS3303 top fuel Joined: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,981 SE Michigan	Andy I have the pushrods (Smith Bros) and Comp lifters (offset intakes) you need for those rockers. PM if interested.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: TS3303] #33909 01/13/07 08:48 PM 01/13/07 08:48 PM
Joined: Jul 2003 Posts: 12,129 Cleveland sunroofgtx I Live Here
sunroofgtx I Live Here Joined: Jul 2003 Posts: 12,129 Cleveland	Andy, as always, you are trudging thrugh unmarked or grey area. It seems that you seriously care about the enthusiast. These are all parts that normal guys can afford, although the "big Guys " use these parts also. Cudos to you, always seeming to go the extra mile to see if things can improve with the parts that are put out there for us.. Thanks.. Seems like Jesel has alway had a good name, just seemed always out of reach.. Join the quickest team in motorsports. Team FireCore. CustomWiresets.com

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33910 01/13/07 08:55 PM 01/13/07 08:55 PM
Joined: Jan 2004 Posts: 512 IL A acme383 mopar
acme383 mopar A Joined: Jan 2004 Posts: 512 IL	andy, what size springs and cups are you using? "Beating the competition with a stick is just automatic!"

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: sunroofgtx] #33911 01/14/07 12:23 AM 01/14/07 12:23 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon	Thanks Rick, I figured since Indy and Jesel didn't provide instructions I'd just go ahead and document how to do this conversion. I actually think this Jesel setup is probably the way to go for guys who are getting serious with their motors. The Harland Sharp or Erson stuff costs almost as much but doesn't have some of the advantages that the Jesel individual shafts bring. Acme - I'm going to be running PSI 1246 springs. They are 1.645 x 2.00 high with 300 lbs on the seat. I'm setting up the valvetrain so I can run .800 lift. My old springs were installed at 1.950 height so I just had to use some +0.050 locks to move up to a 2.00 installed height. It looks like that is about the limit for this setup. Much taller than that and the retainer will hit the rocker arm. Now that I have it mocked up, I'm pretty sure that Jesel could easily make a standard offset intake setup using mostly the same parts that are in this kit. I'm going to talk to Jesel engineering next week about doing a custom kit for me so I can try it out. These exhaust rocker arms have .250 offset and it looks like that offset will work just fine on the intake side as well. Last edited by AndyF; 01/14/07 12:29 AM.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33912 01/14/07 04:24 AM 01/14/07 04:24 AM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,664 North Sweden R RT540 top fuel
RT540 top fuel R Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,664 North Sweden	Quote: I'm going to talk to Jesel engineering next week about doing a custom kit for me so I can try it out. These exhaust rocker arms have .250 offset and it looks like that offset will work just fine on the intake side as well. But if you keep the 0.800" offset int rockers you leave the option to straigthen out the pushrod wall for more CA in the future. I don�t know how the EZ heads are in CA in different places, but my b1bs heads would like the 440-1 offsets better. Straigthen out the pushrod walls do involve welding or the use of epoxy. Keep up the good work, and keep the pics comming Another thing I am interested in, will the rockers clear �1.645 springs ?? I have 1.625 and if the Jesel clears better than the T&D, I will know which ones to get if or when I upgrade my rockers.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33913 01/14/07 09:22 AM 01/14/07 09:22 AM
Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 684 Milwaukee ToddP super street
ToddP super street Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 684 Milwaukee	Check out the november 2006 issues of moparmax.com page 44. they show a jig used to set rocker stand height on jesel rockers.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: ToddP] #33914 01/14/07 04:14 PM 01/14/07 04:14 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon	Thanks for the link to www.moparmax.com, I hadn't seen that before. The interesting thing about that article is they said they got instructions from Jesel as well as a shaft checking tool. My kit didn't come with instructions or a tool. And when I called Indy they said they couldn't help me. Jesel tech line also told me that there weren't any instructions available for this kit and they didn't offer to send me a height checking tool. I think I'll be back on the phone on Monday.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: RT540] #33915 01/14/07 04:19 PM 01/14/07 04:19 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon	RT - I'm going to be using 1.645 diameter springs with Comp Ti retainers. The retainers tend to hit before the spring so I'm carefully watching the rocker to retainer clearance. The Comp retainers are about 1.500 inch diameter so they are a little smaller than the OD of the springs. Here is the setup with some checking springs installed. I don't see why the spring would hit before the retainer so I think the 1.645 should clear fine. 3215128-pushrod.jpg (368 downloads) Last edited by AndyF; 01/14/07 04:21 PM.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: 70Dustmite440] #33916 01/16/07 04:19 PM 01/16/07 04:19 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon	I mocked up a standard offset intake by using two of the exhaust rocker arms. As far as I can tell by looking at this and taking a bunch of measurements this setup will work just fine. I'll either need new shafts from Jesel or a some spacers to put on the existing shafts to take up the extra clearance. In this picture my mockup using two exhaust rockers is on the right. The setup on the left is the .750 offset intake that comes in the 440-1 kit. 3220208-stdoffset.jpg (491 downloads) Last edited by AndyF; 01/16/07 04:21 PM.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: ToddP] #33917 01/16/07 04:24 PM 01/16/07 04:24 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon	I got a reply from Indy and they told me the location of the stand as well as how far to machine the heads. They said to machine the stands down until they are 0.500 inches above the tall head bolt counterbores. I swung by the local circle track engine builder and he loaned me a Jesel shaft height checking tool. According to the tool I need to lower the shafts about 0.125 from where they are right now. That seems to agree with the number that Indy gave me so I think I'm closing in on it. Here is a picture of the Jesel tool in action. The top of the valve tip is supposed to be flush with the top of the tool but in this picture you can tell that the valve tip is down in the hole a bit. So I need to mount the heads back up in the Bridgeport and mill the stands down some more. 3220218-tool.jpg (346 downloads) Last edited by AndyF; 01/16/07 04:26 PM.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33918 01/17/07 08:51 AM 01/17/07 08:51 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,048 Shelby Twp. Mi HardcoreB master
HardcoreB master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,048 Shelby Twp. Mi	Hello Andy, I would assume Jeff @ Modern would give you some set-up tips if it's not too late. It's been a while since I had my -1's done locally for the paired T&D rockers but, the set-up looks similar. One suggestion I will make is to machine the head for a helicoil or timecert for the rocker holddowns while your at the correct hole centers. Also by the time you get the pedistals machined down to the correct height the holddown bolts MAY be too long and bottom out...so check that as well. Another thing I will throw out there is a suggestion made by 340King from another Mopar site. He recommended to machine the pedestal tops on a perpidicular plane splitting the loading angles of the pushrod and the valve. I hope that makes sense to you.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: HardcoreB] #33919 01/17/07 09:12 AM 01/17/07 09:12 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,048 Shelby Twp. Mi HardcoreB master
HardcoreB master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,048 Shelby Twp. Mi	One more suggestion...the height of the pedestal should be dialed-in by the ideal roller-tip placement. I.E.-with total fore-and-aft travel=.100" ideal location at lash should be .050" intake side of the valvetip centerline. In reguard to my previous post and pedestal plane angle since you already have a base machining done and holes tapped...DISREGUARD!!! I'll leave the post unaltered for archieved future reference.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: 70Dustmite440] #33920 01/17/07 10:08 PM 01/17/07 10:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 3,136 Palm Coast, FL (near Daytona B... Blown_Hemi master
Blown_Hemi master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 3,136 Palm Coast, FL (near Daytona B...	When installing the crank cog make sure to check the installation dot. Some Mopar kits had the dot in the incorrect place. I returned mine to Jesel and had them check it for me. They told me that only a few kits went out the door with the incorrect indexing. I e-mailed you the instructions that came with my beltdrive kit. I could not attatch them for some reason? Ask me my opinion of Frank Mitchell....... A Mopar crook!

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: HardcoreB] #33921 01/20/07 10:19 PM 01/20/07 10:19 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon	I think I'm going to go with just tapping the head for the bolts this first time and leave the extra material there for helicoil repairs if necessary down the road. The Jesel setup uses seven 7/16-14 bolts so there is a lot more clamping force than the stock setup has. I've gotten some good help from Jesel lately. I think they sorted out internally that there weren't instructions for this kit and that there could be guys like me who aren't professional engine builders who might buy the kit. Last I heard from Jesel they were going to put some instructions for this kit up on their website. I've been pretty happy working with the guys at Jesel so far. You can tell that they are used to working with top end professional race teams. Super professional attitude and knowledge.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33922 01/28/07 12:22 AM 01/28/07 12:22 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon	I finished up the machine work today to mount the Jesel stand onto the EZ heads. I had to machine down the pads some more and then drill and tap the 7 holes for 7/16-14 thread. The bolts included in the Jesel kit are a little too long so I'm going to order new ones. I sure am glad that Jesel faxed me a blueprint. Without that I would have had a really hard time getting the holes drilled and tapped in the correct locations. Here is a shot of the pattern left by the roller tip for .800 lift. It looks pretty good. It could be moved out on the valve stem by 0.020 or so to be perfect but there isn't any easy way to do that once the holes in the head are drilled and tapped. 3249693-pattern.jpg (238 downloads) Last edited by AndyF; 02/02/07 12:01 PM.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33923 01/28/07 09:48 PM 01/28/07 09:48 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon	Here is how the head looks after the pads have been machined down and the new holes drilled and tapped for the hold down screws. The Jesel stand uses seven 7/16-14 bolts to hold it down rather than the five 3/8-16 bolts for the factory setup. It is a little tricky re-drilling the end holes for the larger 7/16 screws since the proper tap drill is smaller than 3/8ths. So basically a small amount of the existing threads are left in the hole and you then have to retap thru that. It cleans up okay but if you're going to run the Jesel setup you should really buy the heads setup that way in the beginning. 3251988-bare.jpg (218 downloads) Last edited by AndyF; 01/28/07 09:49 PM.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33924 01/28/07 09:52 PM 01/28/07 09:52 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon	Here is the same head with the Jesel stand bolted in place. It is a bit of a trick to get the holes that go into the intake ports drilled to the correct depth. Basically you only want to go deep enough so the bolt goes all the way in but not any deeper since you're drilling into the intake runner wall. 3252012-stand.jpg (224 downloads) Last edited by AndyF; 01/28/07 09:53 PM.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33925 01/28/07 10:28 PM 01/28/07 10:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 14,496 So. Burlington, Vt. F fast68plymouth I Live Here
fast68plymouth I Live Here F Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 14,496 So. Burlington, Vt.	will you be pushrod oiling, or using spray bar valve covers for the roller cam tests? 68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33926 01/28/07 10:29 PM 01/28/07 10:29 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 16,925 NC 440Jim I Live Here
440Jim I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 16,925 NC	After all that work you will have a strong and stable valve train. With the right springs and cam, put those heads on a 383 and spin it to 9000 rpm.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: fast68plymouth] #33927 01/29/07 01:08 AM 01/29/07 01:08 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon	I got the spray bar valve covers. I think I prefer the idea of pushrod oiling but the roller lifters that I have aren't oiler type. Also, this Jesel setup is the ball and cup pushrod (ball adjuster) and I'm not so sure that it will work with pushrod oiling. That was another variable that wasn't very clear up front.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: 440Jim] #33928 01/29/07 01:11 AM 01/29/07 01:11 AM
Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,890 North Alabama M Monte_Smith master
Monte_Smith master M Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,890 North Alabama	Andy, In my own experience with this setup, you should probably go ahead and use heli-colis or thread-inserts. With large cams and the large spring pressure that goes with them, I have yet to have the threads NOT pull out of the heads, especially the end holes. I have had to make this repair so many times at the track, it is ridiculous. Now I just do them up front. Monte

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: Monte_Smith] #33929 01/29/07 08:15 AM 01/29/07 08:15 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,004 U.S.S.A. JohnRR I Win
JohnRR I Win Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,004 U.S.S.A.	Quote: Andy, In my own experience with this setup, you should probably go ahead and use heli-colis or thread-inserts. With large cams and the large spring pressure that goes with them, I have yet to have the threads NOT pull out of the heads, especially the end holes. I have had to make this repair so many times at the track, it is ridiculous. Now I just do them up front. Monte i was going to say something similar regarding using helicoils in those end holes , everything we do at work that is milspec , satellites and portable radars ,uses helicoils in alum .

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: JohnRR] #33930 02/01/07 07:47 PM 02/01/07 07:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon	Just got some super good news from Jesel. They created instructions for this kit and posted them on their webpage. The instructions show the proper machining operations for various installed valve heights. Basically, the longer the valves are then the closer you need to move your rocker shaft to the intake side of the head. Here is a link to the Jesel instruction page. The kit of the Indy head is INS-07238 in the middle of the page. Maybe someone knows how to link directly to a pdf document? http://www.jeselonline.com/index.php?categoryid=49

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33931 02/02/07 12:08 PM 02/02/07 12:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon	Even more good news from Jesel. I talked with them today and they are going to make me a set of spacers so I can run exhaust rocker arms on the intake. That will give me a standard offset kit so I don't need to machine a big slot in the head for pushrod clearance. Sounds like I'll have the parts in a week or so.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33932 02/02/07 12:28 PM 02/02/07 12:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,928 Canada R RobR master
RobR master R Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,928 Canada	Great thread...great pictures...

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33933 02/02/07 12:31 PM 02/02/07 12:31 PM
Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,175 where its cold and white durin... 2QUICK4U super stock
2QUICK4U super stock Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,175 where its cold and white durin...	im using the same jessel set up on my 440-1`s they are so much better and easier to set up your valve lash.you can do each cyclinder at a time,no worring about bending or catching a pushrod from another cyclinder when hand cranking over motor to set lash.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: 2QUICK4U] #33934 02/03/07 07:25 PM 02/03/07 07:25 PM
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	I wrote the article you referred to in www.moparmax.com and the initial one in www.dragracingonline.com as well. The fixture tool came with mine and I am surprised Jesel missed it on yours. Two years, ZERO problems. We set the final plate height pretty much like you did and ended up with a very similar rocker tip print on the valve. I would recommend the offset intake roller from Comp Cams to straighten the pushrod. (We send the rollers in at 150 runs to prevent a disaster, only $165.00 for rebuild and peasce of mind. We will be doing more and more Mopar Tech now that our newest magazine is getting over 3500 readers per day, check it our when you get a chance- www.MoparMax.com Great series of photos and tech on your install I just read here on Moparts, nicely done. Jok Nicholson dragsterboy@mchsi.com

Re: Moving up to Jesel #33935 02/03/07 09:46 PM 02/03/07 09:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon	Hi Jok, Nice to see you here. Thanks for the compliment, I've been trying to document this install so we can post it in the tech archives here. I won't need the offset lifters though since I'm having Jesel build me a custom standard offset rocker arm kit. I'll have the parts next week and then I'll post the pictures. Since my EZ heads are setup for standard offset rocker arms I don't need the 440-1 type offset rocker arms on the intake side. I'm going to try out the new Jesel kit on my motor and then we'll see what happens from there. Jesel might decide to make it a new product or they might just keep it as a special order kit. I think there are people who need a standard offset rocker arm kit for the SR and EZ heads but maybe I'm wrong?

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33936 02/04/07 11:59 PM 02/04/07 11:59 PM
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	I think you are right, they should offer a kit for those heads. The Jesels have been the best thing I have done to my 572. I ate up Indy rockers at about 3 per year. So I was buying a new set each year. When I talked to Jesel they said I am done replacing rockers from fatigue, 450 runs later, they are still correct! This is a great site, enjoting looking at all the Mopar Stuff...;-) Jok

Re: Moving up to Jesel #33937 02/05/07 01:02 AM 02/05/07 01:02 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon	I did a trial fit today with everything correctly dialed in. The rocker ratio is dead nuts on, the cam is easy to adjust with the Jesel belt drive, and the VP clearance is tight! I might not be able to run this big cam with the 1.70 rocker arms. Not to worry, I have a couple other cams in the drawer that I can try. 3271249-lift.jpg (181 downloads) Last edited by AndyF; 02/05/07 01:03 AM.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33938 02/05/07 02:28 AM 02/05/07 02:28 AM
Joined: Sep 2005 Posts: 6,516 Santa Cruz, California L Lefty master
Lefty master L Joined: Sep 2005 Posts: 6,516 Santa Cruz, California	Quote: Maybe someone knows how to link directly to a pdf document? http://www.jeselonline.com/docs/instructions/INS-07238.pdf

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33939 02/07/07 12:20 AM 02/07/07 12:20 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 14,496 So. Burlington, Vt. F fast68plymouth I Live Here
fast68plymouth I Live Here F Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 14,496 So. Burlington, Vt.	what did you end up getting for a cam? dont need all that much clearance for dyno work, especially if you have plenty of spring.. i had a 383 Chevy i was doing some cam testing with, and one of the cams i tried had about .035 intake/.050 exhaust clearance. no issues. i know some of the SS guys routinely run around .030 clearance on the intake side. 68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: fast68plymouth] #33940 02/07/07 12:31 AM 02/07/07 12:31 AM
Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 43,157 Bend,OR USA C Cab_Burge I Win
Cab_Burge I Win C Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 43,157 Bend,OR USA	Quote: what did you end up getting for a cam? dont need all that much clearance for dyno work, especially if you have plenty of spring.. i had a 383 Chevy i was doing some cam testing with, and one of the cams i tried had about .035 intake/.050 exhaust clearance. no issues. i know some of the SS guys routinely run around .030 clearance on the intake side. dang them NHRA class racers. Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: fast68plymouth] #33941 02/07/07 01:20 AM 02/07/07 01:20 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon	Comp sent me a 1722/1850 grind. The problem is that with the 1.70 rockers the valve accelerates faster than the piston down the hole. So I have lots of VP clearance at TDC but the valve catches up to the piston at about 10 degrees ATDC. If I dial the cam in at 4 degrees advanced the valve kisses the piston on the way down. If I put it in straight up I might have 0.035 clearance. If I retard the cam a bit then I have clearance. I also have a Scott Brown cam which is a little smaller than the Comp and I have a Crower 300R which is another 10 degrees smaller yet. The SB cam also smacks the piston. I haven't tried the Crower yet.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33942 02/07/07 11:06 PM 02/07/07 11:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 14,496 So. Burlington, Vt. F fast68plymouth I Live Here
fast68plymouth I Live Here F Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 14,496 So. Burlington, Vt.	Quote: Comp sent me a 1722/1850 grind. that looks pretty good....whats the lsa? if you install it retarded so it has .035 clearance...whats the exhaust clearance like? the high RR does eat up the clearance pretty fast. 68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: fast68plymouth] #33943 02/08/07 01:22 AM 02/08/07 01:22 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon	LSA is 110 on that Comp roller. I'll need to double check the exhuast but it seemed to have more clearance. I have a 6.800 long rod in the motor and the combination of long rod and big rocker ratio really eats up the VP. As I turn it over slowly you can see the valve accelerate off the seat while the piston basically just sits there. It takes almost 20 degrees of rotation to move the piston significantly. Meanwhile, those 1.70 arms just rocket the valve into the piston. The Comp cam card calls for 0.026 lash so that is some more safety factor. I'm measuring everything now with zero lash. When you talk about running 0.030 VP clearance is that with the valves lashed, or with the rocker tight against the valve tip when the cam is on the base circle? I also have a Crower 300R cam on hand so I put it in to see how it looks. It appears to have about 0.050 clearance on the intake when installed straight up. It is also a 0.026 lash cam. It is pretty agressive cam for being such an old design. 261/263 at 050 but .457/.464 lobe lift. It showed .792 lift on the dial indicator so the lobe I was checking was a little big. The Crower is ground on 105 LSA which seems a little tight.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33944 02/08/07 08:38 AM 02/08/07 08:38 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,048 Shelby Twp. Mi HardcoreB master
HardcoreB master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,048 Shelby Twp. Mi	Andy, I have an Ultradyne grind (R54) both I and E 316/283/201 .4765" lobe on a 110* lsa .026" lash. If you would like to try it let me know.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33945 02/08/07 10:50 PM 02/08/07 10:50 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 14,496 So. Burlington, Vt. F fast68plymouth I Live Here
fast68plymouth I Live Here F Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 14,496 So. Burlington, Vt.	Quote: When you talk about running 0.030 VP clearance is that with the valves lashed, or with the rocker tight against the valve tip when the cam is on the base circle? i dont bother checking V/P clearance with zero lash......since thats not how the motor runs(unless its a hyd cam). i check everything with the correct lash. so, to answer your question, i ran that 383 with that little amount of clearance. what your seeing is part of the reason many of the longer duration BBC cams are put on wider LSA's. 68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: fast68plymouth] #33946 02/11/07 12:26 PM 02/11/07 12:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon	If I dial in the Comp 1722/1850 cam at a 108 installed centerline I get about 0.075 clearance on the intake and 0.100 on the exhaust. So that is fine IF the cam centerline doesn't change. The problem is that if the belt drive isn't rock steady then we could have problems. Probably be okay for a few dyno pulls. I'm kind of curious about the power difference between the Comp cam and the Crower that I have. The Crower 300R cam is about 15 degrees smaller at 050 but has the same amount of lift. It is also on a 105 LCA and has to be installed around 100 or so to get everything to clear. I also have a Scott Brown cam that I was going to run but it is a tight lash design with decent duration and I just don't think it clears.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33947 02/11/07 01:03 PM 02/11/07 01:03 PM
Joined: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,170 Westbury, NY B bumps440 super gas
bumps440 super gas B Joined: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,170 Westbury, NY	Dont worry about the intake P/V clearance, impossible for the intake to catch the piston and any retarding effect will only improve the situation. Unfortunately, any retard effect will hurt exhaust clearance. I have .030 Intake and .110 Exhaust on my present project, (383 with 13.75/1 comp ratio) had me pulling my hair out to get everything to fit here. installed centerline at 102

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33948 02/11/07 01:05 PM 02/11/07 01:05 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 14,496 So. Burlington, Vt. F fast68plymouth I Live Here
fast68plymouth I Live Here F Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 14,496 So. Burlington, Vt.	Quote: If I dial in the Comp 1722/1850 cam at a 108 installed centerline I get about 0.075 clearance on the intake and 0.100 on the exhaust heck....thats a mile of room. i wouldnt hesitate for a second to run that clearance in the car. 68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: fast68plymouth] #33949 02/11/07 03:28 PM 02/11/07 03:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon	Yeah I'm comfortable running it too now that I've found a sweet spot where it looks like it will fit. The margin for error is kind of small though since a few degrees each way and it runs out of clearance in a hurry. One nice thing about the belt drive is that it only takes me a few seconds to adjust the centerline and then I can double check the clearances. Doing it with a chain can take a bunch of time. Any thoughts on the Crower 300R cam? I bet it will make some torque, just not sure it will hold on long enough to make much power in the 505. It is probably too aggressive to be a street cam although Crower doesn't really recommend super stiff springs for it. 261/263 at 050 and 460 lobe lift. The 105 LCA seems a little odd also. I called and asked them if it would work with 1.70 rocker arms and they said it would be fine up to 7000 rpm. Guy I talked to said it is a really old cam design that seems to work great. I bought it 20 years ago at a swap meet but never ran it.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33950 02/11/07 07:25 PM 02/11/07 07:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 14,496 So. Burlington, Vt. F fast68plymouth I Live Here
fast68plymouth I Live Here F Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 14,496 So. Burlington, Vt.	the test i would do......is compare the new Comp with another cam that has very similar seat to seat, and .050 numbers, and if possible.....similar .200 numbers....but with noticably less lift, to see if the big lift is really going to buy you anything in that application. and if it does....how much? in other words....does it justify the added expense and wear and tear of the really big springs that are required to be able to use that type of cam for "X" amount of added power??. as i had mentioned before, in that 383 SBC, going from .625 lift to .715 lift, while maintaining the seat to seat and .050 numbers of the 2 cams....showed no increase in power for the added lift. that motor was making about 1.56hp/ci. the test between the cams would be to try and determine which was more beneficial in that motor.....higher lift, or a higher discharge coefficient. Quote: Any thoughts on the Crower 300R cam? i'd expect that with the short duration and tight lsa.....it would make a pretty big number in the middle somewhere.....but probably not provide the kind of overall power curve someone building that kind of motor is going to be looking for. 68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: fast68plymouth] #33951 02/12/07 01:43 AM 02/12/07 01:43 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon	That is an interesting idea. Since I have the 1722/1850 110 at the moment I suppose I could order up a 4205/4032 110 to try. The 4205 is 308/276/195 with .406 lobe lift as compared to the 1722 which is 308/275/195 and .488 lobe lift. So pretty darn close. The 4032 is 318/282/195 and .420 lobe lift as compared to the 1850 which is 320/282/194 and .460 lobe lift. So not as dramatic a difference on the lift but still should be a decent test. You find any lobes that look better than the 4205/4032?

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33952 02/14/07 01:46 PM 02/14/07 01:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon	I just got my "upgrade" kit from Jesel so I can run standard offset rocker arms on the intake. That means I won't need to grind a ton of pushrod clearance in the head. This is a slick kit since it allows a guy to run the Jesel setup on the EZ or SR heads. I'll post pictures as soon as I get some stuff bolted together. One interesting tidbit is that in the box was some promo material for the new Jesel rocker arms that are made from steel. Evidently they are coming out with some new stuff, some of it is very trick looking. They have steel rocker arms with machined trusses and windows. They look like the old Mechart connecting rods. Kind of wild looking, like little bridge trusses. I don't see that stuff on their website yet but there was a flyer in the box.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33953 02/14/07 10:08 PM 02/14/07 10:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 14,496 So. Burlington, Vt. F fast68plymouth I Live Here
fast68plymouth I Live Here F Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 14,496 So. Burlington, Vt.	Quote: You find any lobes that look better than the 4205/4032? those would work.....although i like 1612 for an intake lobe a bit better. 309/276/196, .420 lift. 68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: fast68plymouth] #33954 02/15/07 01:03 AM 02/15/07 01:03 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon	Here is a shot of the conversion kit that Jesel sent me. The setup on the left is the 440-1 kit that you can buy from Indy. In the center is the std offset rocker arm with an inner and outer spacer that you replace the .800 offset arm with. Once you have it all put back together you get the std offset kit on the right. 3296441-conversion.jpg (186 downloads) Last edited by AndyF; 02/15/07 01:05 AM.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33955 02/15/07 01:05 AM 02/15/07 01:05 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon	Once the conversion to standard offset is done this is what it looks like mounted on the head. There is plenty of clearance on my EZ heads for a 3/8 pushrod and I think I can run a 7/16 pushrod without any grinding. I'll know for sure next week when my new pushrods show up. 3296445-std.jpg (157 downloads) Last edited by AndyF; 02/15/07 01:06 AM.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33956 02/16/07 12:25 PM 02/16/07 12:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon	Here is a picture from the valley side that shows the pushrods. With this standard offset rocker arm kit you don't need offset lifters or any grinding on the heads. So I think I'm about done with this project. I need to verify the clearance for the 7/16 pushrods and then install the valve springs and head back to the dyno. 3299287-pushrod.jpg (141 downloads) Last edited by AndyF; 02/16/07 12:26 PM.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33957 02/21/07 01:46 AM 02/21/07 01:46 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon	I hit a bit of a snag but nothing that time and money won't solve. I ordered up 7/16 pushrods from Smith Bros. They showed up the next day and were exactly what I ordered, but they aren't exactly what I need. They rub the rocker arms pretty hard so I need to call them back to see if they make a special "Jesel" end for their 7/16 pushrod. The catalog doesn't show one but I'm guessing I'm not the first guy to run into this problem. 3311702-pushrodend.jpg (164 downloads) Last edited by AndyF; 02/21/07 01:47 AM.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33958 02/21/07 02:53 AM 02/21/07 02:53 AM
Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 43,157 Bend,OR USA C Cab_Burge I Win
Cab_Burge I Win C Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 43,157 Bend,OR USA	Andy, where your clearance checks made with checking springs or the ones your going to run? If with checking springs you can expect .035 to .045 more clearance with the regular springs depending on how stout the valve train is and how much everything deflects. Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: Cab_Burge] #33959 02/21/07 07:33 AM 02/21/07 07:33 AM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 10,384 Upstate NY Bigcube I Live Here
Bigcube I Live Here Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 10,384 Upstate NY	My jesel rockers have a ball end on the rocker side. The ball end is smaller then the lifter side of the pushrod. Perhaps you may need to change the adjusters to the ones that use the other type of pushrod? Jim

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33960 02/21/07 10:59 PM 02/21/07 10:59 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 14,496 So. Burlington, Vt. F fast68plymouth I Live Here
fast68plymouth I Live Here F Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 14,496 So. Burlington, Vt.	it looks to me like the pushrod cup is for an adjuster screw thats bigger than whats on that rocker arm. the adjuster looks like it probably has a 5/16 ball and, and the pushrod looks like its designed for a 3/8 ball. 68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: fast68plymouth] #33961 02/22/07 12:06 AM 02/22/07 12:06 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon	Yep, you're close. Actually it turns out that the Jesel adjuster is 0.281 diameter (9/32) and I ordered pushrods with a 5/16 cup size. Smith Bros doesn't stock a 9/32 cup for the 7/16 pushrod that doesn't have an oiling hole so they are going to make me up some custom ends. Jesel has the correct pushrod ends but their pushrods cost $40 each and $640 for a set of pushrods that I'll only use once was a little hard to justify.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33962 02/22/07 12:12 AM 02/22/07 12:12 AM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 10,384 Upstate NY Bigcube I Live Here
Bigcube I Live Here Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 10,384 Upstate NY	Why didn't you get the adjusters with the cups and use a ball end on the pushrod?

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: Bigcube] #33963 02/22/07 02:45 AM 02/22/07 02:45 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon	This is what they sent me, I didn't special order the ball end adjusters or anything. Jesel recommends the ball end adjusters. They say they have less friction. I haven't seen their test data but I don't have any problem with their claim. Besides, I kind of prefer cups on the top of the pushrods when using splash oiling. For a pushrod oiled combo then the ball/ball pushrod would probably be the best design but I'm using spray bars. It just seems that an face up cup will have a better chance of catching and holding some oil in it that an upside down cup.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: fast68plymouth] #33964 03/02/07 09:13 PM 03/02/07 09:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon	I got a set of Jesel pushrods today. They are super nice pushrods. Dual taper, .40 to 7/16 and back to 0.40. They also have the correct ends on them to work with the Jesel adjusters. Only problem with them is that they cost $42.75 each or $684 per set! 3336237-jeselpushrod.jpg (170 downloads) Last edited by AndyF; 03/02/07 09:14 PM.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33965 03/02/07 09:26 PM 03/02/07 09:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 14,496 So. Burlington, Vt. F fast68plymouth I Live Here
fast68plymouth I Live Here F Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 14,496 So. Burlington, Vt.	Quote: Only problem with them is that they cost $42.75 each or $684 per set! ouch!! well....at least you know they'll be up to the task. and....they fit. 68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: fast68plymouth] #33966 03/02/07 09:46 PM 03/02/07 09:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon	Smith Bros is doing a custom end for this application and they'll cost a lot less. So in a couple of weeks I'll have some new pics to post and there will be another choice for people. I called Manton and it sounds like they have an end that will work with these rocker arms also.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33967 03/03/07 10:37 AM 03/03/07 10:37 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 16,925 NC 440Jim I Live Here
440Jim I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 16,925 NC	Quote: I got a set of Jesel pushrods today.... Only problem with them is that they cost $42.75 each or $684 per set! Is the roller cam you plan on putting in so radical it can't use thick wall 3/8" pushrods? The last test with the Comp MM305S flat tappet cam was thousands of dollars cheaper. It will be interesting how much more power the Jessel setup and roller cam makes on the dyno. 3337145-Comp_MM305S-10.jpg (194 downloads) 1993 Daytona, 5.50 at 130mph (1/8) 1.19 sixty ft (PG). Link to 572 B1 - Part 1

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: 440Jim] #33968 03/03/07 11:54 AM 03/03/07 11:54 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon	I don't know the answer to that since I don't have access to a Spintron. I talked to a few different sources and they recommended with 900 lbs open spring pressure to run a thick wall 7/16 pushrod. The Smith Bros pushrods are probably in the $20 each range so they aren't too expensive. They are a straight wall 7/16 pushrod with a .120 wall. You're correct on the expense. I've spent about $4000 to go from the flat tappet MM305 to this roller cam and that is with me doing a bunch of the machine work myself. It hasn't all been required though, I'm trying some new stuff out so I consider it more R&D than anything else.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33969 03/03/07 07:20 PM 03/03/07 07:20 PM
Joined: May 2004 Posts: 62 Southern Wisconsin B B1Dodge member
B1Dodge member B Joined: May 2004 Posts: 62 Southern Wisconsin	Thank you for posting info and pics, some really good work here.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33970 03/04/07 03:04 PM 03/04/07 03:04 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 14,496 So. Burlington, Vt. F fast68plymouth I Live Here
fast68plymouth I Live Here F Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 14,496 So. Burlington, Vt.	i know its too late to go back now, but the test i would have liked to see(its easy to want stuff when you're spending someone elses money), would have been a roller cam swap similar to what the MM305 cam was, using the same basic valvetrain you used in that test.....then step up to the big dollar stuff like you have now, to show how much power you're getting for the added expense of the high lift cams, and the associated parts required to run them with any kind of reliability. in any case.....i'll be interested in hearing the dyno results with the new combo. is this next test going to have the new oil pan on it right away, or will that be a seperate test? 68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: fast68plymouth] #33971 03/04/07 03:53 PM 03/04/07 03:53 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,807 Mopar Country, Mi ccdave The Ultimate
ccdave The Ultimate Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,807 Mopar Country, Mi	Quote: i know its too late to go back now, but the test i would have liked to see(its easy to want stuff when you're spending someone elses money), would have been a roller cam swap similar to what the MM305 cam was, using the same basic valvetrain you used in that test.....then step up to the big dollar stuff like you have now, to show how much power you're getting for the added expense of the high lift cams, and the associated parts required to run them with any kind of reliability. in any case.....i'll be interested in hearing the dyno results with the new combo. is this next test going to have the new oil pan on it right away, or will that be a seperate test?

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: fast68plymouth] #33972 03/05/07 01:08 AM 03/05/07 01:08 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon	Yeah it is probably possible to do a low buck roller cam setup with Isky nodular rocker arms and old Chrysler triples or something like that and have it make almost as much power as a high dollar setup. I agree it would be kind of cool to do that type of article where you show some good power results with a well chosen selection of "cheap" parts. But I had an interest in sorting out the Jesel stuff so I went this way with it. I might do a low lift vs. high lift comparison. I also have the option now of changing the rocker arm ratio pretty easily so I might try some 1.50 vs. 1.70 on the exhaust arm to see what happens there. I'll put it together with the new deep dyno pan and run it that way. I might play around with the pan at some future time but right now I'm mostly interested to see how it will run with the big cam and the 1.70 rocker arms. I don't know if the pan makes any power difference or not. Pan testing is kind of messy.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33973 03/05/07 09:22 PM 03/05/07 09:22 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 14,496 So. Burlington, Vt. F fast68plymouth I Live Here
fast68plymouth I Live Here F Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 14,496 So. Burlington, Vt.	well, i didnt mean anything that extreme in terms of low buck. more along the lines of what i see the majority of guys running, and similar to what i was running when i had the roller in my old 448. i thought you already had the Racer Brown rockers on this motor for the previous tests, so what i was thinking was more like just swap the cam/lifters/springs/distributor gear, and use a cam with a similar profile to the MM305, and just see what the roller set up was worth. then go to the big dollar set-up like what you did. as for the pan.....no telling what its worth without testing, but dont kid yourself....ive seen pretty substantial gains(15-20hp at higher rpms) by using pans that provide better oil control. ive also seen high doller hi-tech pans not work that well at all. changing the pan on the dyno isnt all that fun....but its not really that bad either. 68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: fast68plymouth] #33974 03/06/07 01:40 AM 03/06/07 01:40 AM
Joined: Jul 2003 Posts: 12,129 Cleveland sunroofgtx I Live Here
sunroofgtx I Live Here Joined: Jul 2003 Posts: 12,129 Cleveland	Andy, great work. Great documenting, also. My buddy and I had a long phone meeting with Mike @ Primedia today, about working with MM mag and our wires. There was a lot of interest at the Indy show last weekend with out race wires, and there will be dyno tests coming up shortly. Would you be interested in using the wires we sent you for the upcoming dyno pulls ?? If so, do you have everything you need ?? Please let me know, as you seem very resourceful.. . Join the quickest team in motorsports. Team FireCore. CustomWiresets.com

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: fast68plymouth] #33975 03/09/07 11:34 PM 03/09/07 11:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon	I got a new set of Smith Bros pushrods today. These don't cost nearly as much as the Jesel pushrods but should work just fine. They are 7/16 x 0.120 wall and the end is tapered down to 3/8 and there is a 9/64 cup end. These are the pushrods I'll run in the motor. The motor is almost back together. I just need to double check pushrod clearance and then install the big mondo valve springs and we're ready to light it off. 3353914-smallsmith.jpg (165 downloads) Last edited by AndyF; 03/09/07 11:36 PM.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33976 03/09/07 11:37 PM 03/09/07 11:37 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 14,496 So. Burlington, Vt. F fast68plymouth I Live Here
fast68plymouth I Live Here F Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 14,496 So. Burlington, Vt.	Andy, how much will those pushrods end up costing? looks like the did a nice job with them. 68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: fast68plymouth] #33977 03/09/07 11:41 PM 03/09/07 11:41 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon	I think the Smith Bros pushrods are about $18 each but I don't know for sure. They had to make a special end for me that wasn't a catalog item. The pushrods with the catalog ends cost $16 each so I'm just guessing that these new ends will be a little more expensive.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33978 03/14/07 06:26 PM 03/14/07 06:26 PM
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Hey I am new to this site and have been following your comments on Jessel. First of all thanks very much for the great pictures on installing the Jessel rockers. I was lost after talking to Indy, as said before they aren't much help. I have a couple of questions if you guys could help I would appreciate it. 1) I am going to have push rod oiling with bushed lifter bores. Anyone else running the same and if so is there any concerns? Jessel said it should be okay but I forgot to mention that the lifter bores were bushed (only a 0.060" feed hole) 2) Does anyone have any instructions or pictures on a spray bar install.

Re: Moving up to Jesel #33979 03/14/07 07:09 PM 03/14/07 07:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon	The biggest issue with pushrod oiling when using bushed lifter bores is that you need to drill the bushing in the correct location so it will provide oil to your lifter during full travel. That is easier said than done since nobody publishes the specs for this stuff. You basically have to buy a certain brand of lifter and then have the bushings drilled for that brand. And then you have to stick with the brand of lifter for the life of the motor since other lifters will have their oil hole in a different location. I can post a picture of the spray bar if someone doesn't beat me to it. It is just a standard Indy valve cover with a tube inside that has some small holes drilled in it. A #3 AN fitting feeds the oil into the tube from outside the valve cover.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33980 03/14/07 07:46 PM 03/14/07 07:46 PM
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Thanks for the quick response. The pictures of the spray bars would be great! I got my kit from Indy. If the oil feed hole is in the right location when the valve is closed but not in lift is that a problem? I actually have to put it together to check and see where things line up.

Re: Moving up to Jesel #33981 03/14/07 11:58 PM 03/14/07 11:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,021 Oregon	Well if it was me I'd want oil pressure to the pushrod full time but maybe you'll be okay if it cuts off just at full lift. I've never run a motor that way but it might work. If it doesn't you'll have to pull it all apart to fix it though.

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: AndyF] #33982 03/16/07 12:23 PM 03/16/07 12:23 PM
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Hey andy any luck on the spray bar pictures?

Re: Moving up to Jesel #33983 03/16/07 12:28 PM 03/16/07 12:28 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,664 North Sweden R RT540 top fuel
RT540 top fuel R Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,664 North Sweden	Here�s my Indy spray bar covers 3368577-Spraybar.jpg (600 downloads)

Re: Moving up to Jesel [Re: RT540] #33984 03/16/07 12:36 PM 03/16/07 12:36 PM
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Thanks for the picture. What does the other side look like? Do you run a baffle under your breather? Very Nice looking Coronet by the way. Last edited by 540 Daytona; 03/16/07 12:41 PM.

Re: Moving up to Jesel #33985 03/16/07 01:43 PM 03/16/07 01:43 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,664 North Sweden R RT540 top fuel
RT540 top fuel R Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,664 North Sweden	Quote: Thanks for the picture. What does the other side look like? Do you run a baffle under your breather? Very Nice looking Coronet by the way. Thanks No breather, the other side looks the same, I have a dry sump oil system.

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