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Re: 521 progress [Re: AndyF] #3194141 11/29/23 12:13 PM 11/29/23 12:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 14,493 So. Burlington, Vt. F fast68plymouth I Live Here
fast68plymouth I Live Here F Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 14,493 So. Burlington, Vt.	A few minutes with a spring tester and you should be able to determine if the springs are suitable. For that application(and what you’re doing with the engine), if you can get close to 2” IH, I’d probably go with something like a PAC-1225. I haven’t used “tons” of Manley springs…….but more than a few sets. Nothing stands out in my memory with any of them being way out of spec…….but anything is possible. 68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads

Re: 521 progress [Re: AndyF] #3194170 11/29/23 01:42 PM 11/29/23 01:42 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 16,923 NC 440Jim I Live Here
440Jim I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 16,923 NC	Originally Posted by AndyF ... I did have this issue before with dual conical springs from Comp. They told me to use the dual conicals for a solid roller cam but the catalog says they are only 150 on the seat. We went ahead and got the dual conical springs and they measured 200 on the seat, plenty on the nose and the coil bind was just right. So the guy was right, the catalog was wrong and the springs worked great in that engine. That is odd that the actual vs catalog are that far off. But since you have the springs, test them for pressure and coil bind height and see if Kaase is right or wrong. I would use 0.060" before coil bind for my calc.

Re: 521 progress [Re: Blusmbl] #3194180 11/29/23 02:22 PM 11/29/23 02:22 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 17,841 S.E. Michigan ZIPPY I Live Here
ZIPPY I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 17,841 S.E. Michigan	Originally Posted by Blusmbl There is no reason a Callies MP cast iron block is $6500 (hey, it's on sale this week for $6000 at Mancini's!). Oh, there's a reason! Just not a reason anyone here likes or can agree with lol........ Personally I've drooled over the 200 dollar core 460s on marketplace, but feel like I picked my poison decades ago. It was already one level of dumb to do a Hemi, it'd be an entirely different level to change brands. Rich H. Esse Quam Videri

Re: 521 progress [Re: ZIPPY] #3194196 11/29/23 04:12 PM 11/29/23 04:12 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,000 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,000 Oregon	Originally Posted by ZIPPY Originally Posted by Blusmbl There is no reason a Callies MP cast iron block is $6500 (hey, it's on sale this week for $6000 at Mancini's!). Oh, there's a reason! Just not a reason anyone here likes or can agree with lol........ Personally I've drooled over the 200 dollar core 460s on marketplace, but feel like I picked my poison decades ago. It was already one level of dumb to do a Hemi, it'd be an entirely different level to change brands. I got divorced, sold my house and shop, moved, got a new shop and bought a new house all in the last 12 months so changing engine brands is not a big deal in the grand scheme of things!

Re: 521 progress [Re: fast68plymouth] #3194197 11/29/23 04:16 PM 11/29/23 04:16 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,000 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,000 Oregon	I agree. I checked two springs and they do coil bind lower than what the Manley catalog says but there isn't 0.060 left with checking springs. I need to order pushrods before I can check with the actual springs. I'm not anticipating a lot of deflection with the T&D shaft setup and 7/16 dual taper pushrods though. My plan B is to increase the installed height a small amount and just run slightly less seat pressure. We'll make a few soft pulls on the dyno to see if everything is happy. If not, we'll go to plan C which would be new springs. I'm sure I can find another home for the 221443 springs since they are fairly common in the dirt track motors that we build.

Re: 521 progress [Re: AndyF] #3194204 11/29/23 04:29 PM 11/29/23 04:29 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 17,841 S.E. Michigan ZIPPY I Live Here
ZIPPY I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 17,841 S.E. Michigan	Originally Posted by AndyF Originally Posted by ZIPPY Originally Posted by Blusmbl There is no reason a Callies MP cast iron block is $6500 (hey, it's on sale this week for $6000 at Mancini's!). Oh, there's a reason! Just not a reason anyone here likes or can agree with lol........ Personally I've drooled over the 200 dollar core 460s on marketplace, but feel like I picked my poison decades ago. It was already one level of dumb to do a Hemi, it'd be an entirely different level to change brands. I got divorced, sold my house and shop, moved, got a new shop and bought a new house all in the last 12 months so changing engine brands is not a big deal in the grand scheme of things! The desire and the means need to exist first: Neither one does Regardless, glad to hear you were able to move on when you needed to. You've been offloading stuff for quite awhile and have made a few comments here and there about "losing the shop" that seemed too serious to be a parody of reality TV show script. Rich H. Esse Quam Videri

Re: 521 progress [Re: ZIPPY] #3194210 11/29/23 04:59 PM 11/29/23 04:59 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 16,923 NC 440Jim I Live Here
440Jim I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 16,923 NC	Andy, Curious, What numbers did the check show? 1.950 - 0.780 - 0.060 = 1.110" needed coil bind (max). Catalog says 1.170"

Re: 521 progress [Re: 440Jim] #3194257 11/29/23 08:11 PM 11/29/23 08:11 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,000 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,000 Oregon	1.140 for the two I checked. And Kaase likes to tighten up how close they run to bind so they suggest 0.040 is okay. If we have to we can pick up a little room by using a +0.050 lock and then shimming back until we get it dialed in.

Re: 521 progress [Re: AndyF] #3194406 11/30/23 10:45 AM 11/30/23 10:45 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 16,923 NC 440Jim I Live Here
440Jim I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 16,923 NC	If you want to try 220-225 on the seat for the initial dyno work, that 0.050" lock would be an inexpensive way to start. I don't know if the current spring ID, etc can use the same retainers you have, but the 0.050" lock would get you to 2.000" installed height for 0.800" lift springs. maybe unlikely...

Re: 521 progress [Re: AndyF] #3205660 01/17/24 03:54 PM 01/17/24 03:54 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,000 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,000 Oregon	We have it all mocked up now with correct pushrods, rocker arms properly installed, etc. It looks like the springs will work but barely. They don't bind but there isn't a lot of space between the coils. Can slide a 0.010 or 0.015 feeler gauge in between the coils so it should be good to go. We checked both inner and outers. These pictures are inner only.

Re: 521 progress [Re: AndyF] #3205786 01/17/24 10:42 PM 01/17/24 10:42 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,000 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,000 Oregon	Figured the top end was ready to go together but discovered that the Cometic gaskets that Kaase recommended overhang into the combustion chambers. They said use 4.500 bore gaskets which seemed safe with a 4.390 bore size, but the chambers in the head are so big that the gasket overhangs near the exhaust valve. Evidently Kaase runs it that way but the engine builder I'm working with said to order new gaskets. So I got a set of 4.600 gaskets ordered from Summit. If I get a chance to do another engine I think I'll buy the 4.500 bore block from Ford and build a 4.500 x 4.500 engine with the same exact heads. Be interesting to see the comparison between the two. The Ford blocks are available for $3900 which seems like an okay price.

Re: 521 progress [Re: AndyF] #3205944 01/18/24 03:51 PM 01/18/24 03:51 PM
Joined: Sep 2003 Posts: 19,366 north of coder moparx "Butt Crack Bob"
moparx "Butt Crack Bob" Joined: Sep 2003 Posts: 19,366 north of coder	Andy, no beehive springs that would work ? please remember, i'm no engine builder, so be easy on me.......

Re: 521 progress [Re: AndyF] #3205961 01/18/24 04:19 PM 01/18/24 04:19 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 14,493 So. Burlington, Vt. F fast68plymouth I Live Here
fast68plymouth I Live Here F Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 14,493 So. Burlington, Vt.	Andy, what did the RR work out to be with the full spring load? 68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads

Re: 521 progress [Re: AndyF] #3206122 01/19/24 09:30 AM 01/19/24 09:30 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,045 Shelby Twp. Mi HardcoreB master
HardcoreB master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,045 Shelby Twp. Mi	Originally Posted by AndyF Figured the top end was ready to go together but discovered that the Cometic gaskets that Kaase recommended overhang into the combustion chambers. They said use 4.500 bore gaskets which seemed safe with a 4.390 bore size, but the chambers in the head are so big that the gasket overhangs near the exhaust valve. Evidently Kaase runs it that way but the engine builder I'm working with said to order new gaskets. So I got a set of 4.600 gaskets ordered from Summit. If I get a chance to do another engine I think I'll buy the 4.500 bore block from Ford and build a 4.500 x 4.500 engine with the same exact heads. Be interesting to see the comparison between the two. The Ford blocks are available for $3900 which seems like an okay price. A few things here just seem ODD with the advice coming out of Kaase. I don't know how many "Ford" people builds there are to gage the success on what seems to be bad direction. But I'd be doing the things you are despite recommendations otherwise. I've seen some of the pieces here and there and appreciate the packages and prices Kaase offers so, I like you are sharing this build. There are engine build things that translate to any platform. I'd be curious to know actual NET lift as well to see where the springs are from c/b. Can you share the entire cam profile to gage its intensity?

Re: 521 progress [Re: HardcoreB] #3206177 01/19/24 01:00 PM 01/19/24 01:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,000 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,000 Oregon	We're just waiting for the correct head gaskets to get here before we put the heads back on. I'll have numbers to share in a few days. I can show the cam card but the lobes are "secret" and Comp won't share that info with me. I can't find the exact lobe in the lobe book so I don't know the Comp specs. I have checked duration at 50, 200 and 400 but I usually like to see the mfg specs so I can compare with other lobes in the same family. The cam card assumes 1.73 rocker arms but we upgraded to T&D arms which are advertised at 1.75.

Re: 521 progress [Re: AndyF] #3206194 01/19/24 01:36 PM 01/19/24 01:36 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 14,493 So. Burlington, Vt. F fast68plymouth I Live Here
fast68plymouth I Live Here F Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 14,493 So. Burlington, Vt.	Andy did you plot out the cam at all? Wondering if you had a duration @.200 number. 68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads

Re: 521 progress [Re: 451Mopar] #3206237 01/19/24 03:20 PM 01/19/24 03:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,045 Shelby Twp. Mi HardcoreB master
HardcoreB master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,045 Shelby Twp. Mi	Originally Posted by 451Mopar Sounds like the wrong spring for a 0.800" lift cam. 1.950" install height and 1.170" coil bind is only 0.780" lift? Do they want them installed at a higher install height like 2.00"? I wouldn't think so as 235 seat pressure @1.950", and 535 lb/in rate seem fairly low pressures for such a large cam? Reviewing this thread after looking at that cam card I wouldn't run so little a spring even if the valves were titanium. I'd guess it'll float the valves before 6000rpm.

Re: 521 progress [Re: AndyF] #3206240 01/19/24 03:28 PM 01/19/24 03:28 PM
Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 43,127 Bend,OR USA C Cab_Burge I Win
Cab_Burge I Win C Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 43,127 Bend,OR USA	Aluminum heads get taller when hot, steel and Ti vales do not, hence less valve spring height when the motor is hot Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)

Re: 521 progress [Re: fast68plymouth] #3206271 01/19/24 05:05 PM 01/19/24 05:05 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,000 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,000 Oregon	Originally Posted by fast68plymouth Andy did you plot out the cam at all? Wondering if you had a duration @.200 number. When I checked the intake lobe I measured 267@050, 197@200 and 90@400. But that was early in the build during a mockup session. Numbers could be slightly off due to a temp setup. Exhaust was 202@200 and 92@400

Re: 521 progress [Re: HardcoreB] #3206274 01/19/24 05:11 PM 01/19/24 05:11 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,000 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,000 Oregon	Originally Posted by HardcoreB Originally Posted by 451Mopar Sounds like the wrong spring for a 0.800" lift cam. 1.950" install height and 1.170" coil bind is only 0.780" lift? Do they want them installed at a higher install height like 2.00"? I wouldn't think so as 235 seat pressure @1.950", and 535 lb/in rate seem fairly low pressures for such a large cam? Reviewing this thread after looking at that cam card I wouldn't run so little a spring even if the valves were titanium. I'd guess it'll float the valves before 6000rpm. We'll keep an eye on it. I've run those springs before with cams like this and haven't had an issue. I used the same spring in my old 514 dyno mule with 1.80 rocker arms and it pulled past 7000 rpm without any issue. That engine had Jesel rocker arms and 7/16 dual taper pushrods. This engine has T&D rockers and the same pushrods. The pushrods are literally the same ones. I sent them back to Smith Bros and had them cut down and replaced the cup with a ball. Saved me $400 over a set of new pushrods. I have about $3000 worth of pushrods in a drawer, so I reuse pushrods whenever possible! Mopar ones can be cut down to work in most any other engine since RB blocks are so tall.

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