Re: 318 question High RPM Late model
[Re: Moparnut426]
#316477
05/13/09 12:53 AM
05/13/09 12:53 AM
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Posts: 12,419 Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
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It could be done with the right 318 block. You need to have it sonic tested. Early blocks will be the thickest, I think they ended in 030 casting number and were produced from 67-71 or so. Another option if you wanted that bore stroke and main combo would be a poly 318 block with LA heads, they were very thick and have seen a few guys run them to 4.040 bore sucessfully, again get it sonic tested. Or another option would be a 360 with the crank turned down and spacers in the mains, but it would need very good bores to run at standard size. A 360 magnum block would be good for this purpose. A few years ago I had a bunch of 318s tested and only the early ones were any good, .030 wa about all I would have felt safe on the mid 70s and up blocks.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: 318 question High RPM Late model
[Re: Moparnut426]
#316479
05/13/09 08:50 AM
05/13/09 08:50 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123 Grand Haven, MI
patrick
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how many cubes are you looking for? how much $$ do you want to spend? some other thoughts, .060 over 283 pistons are .025" over 318 bore. 6" rods, 283 pistons and a 360 crank make a near or 0 deck stroker 318 that would be 348 CID (352 if you found .080 over pistons)....
or use some low comp cast 318 pistons, 318 rods, and 360 crank for a similar displacement.
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD 1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!*** 2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T 2017 Grand Cherokee Overland 2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
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Re: 318 question High RPM Late model
[Re: Moparnut426]
#316481
05/13/09 10:28 AM
05/13/09 10:28 AM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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well if you bore it to 4.0" and use a 360 crank you would have a 360,just use 360 pistons.
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Re: 318 question High RPM Late model
[Re: Moparnut426]
#316483
05/13/09 10:51 AM
05/13/09 10:51 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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patrick
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again, what's the budget, displacement limit, and what kind of RPM are we talking?
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD 1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!*** 2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T 2017 Grand Cherokee Overland 2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
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Re: 318 question High RPM Late model
[Re: patrick]
#316484
05/13/09 01:12 PM
05/13/09 01:12 PM
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Moparnut426
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Quote:
again, what's the budget, displacement limit, and what kind of RPM are we talking?
the budget is 3K ish, the displacement limit is 377, and the rpm is 77-85K depending on the track.
Kasey
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Re: 318 question High RPM Late model
[Re: Moparnut426]
#316485
05/13/09 01:15 PM
05/13/09 01:15 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,266 Renton Washington
Triple Threat
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master
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I'm not a fan of spinning a cast 360 crank to 7500 let alone for long periods.
-Dustin 67 Dart, 9 second, 392" G3 Hemi 68 Barracuda 340 F/SA
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Re: 318 question High RPM Late model
[Re: Triple Threat]
#316486
05/13/09 01:21 PM
05/13/09 01:21 PM
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Moparnut426
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Quote:
I'm not a fan of spinning a cast 360 crank to 7500 let alone for long periods.
We arent either, we are accually gonna buy a Callies crank with 360 stroke, 340 mains. We dont want to run our 340 blocks as we really dont like possibly destroying good 340 stuff. We have 2 340 blocks, but have scattered one beyond repaire before, and had nasty dreams, and the mopar gods were very unkind to us for months for that, so a plentiful 318 is going to work. We dont want to run the crank spacers due to the high sustained RPM we will be holding.
Kasey
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Re: 318 question High RPM Late model
[Re: Moparnut426]
#316487
05/13/09 03:06 PM
05/13/09 03:06 PM
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 799 north west LA
W2DODGE
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Quote:
Quote:
again, what's the budget, displacement limit, and what kind of RPM are we talking?
the budget is 3K ish, the displacement limit is 377, and the rpm is 77-85K depending on the track.
Kasey
what heads are yall going to run 7,700 to 8,500 is a bunch of rpm even with W-2s what kind of oil mods are yall planing
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Re: 318 question High RPM Late model
[Re: Moparnut426]
#316489
05/13/09 04:08 PM
05/13/09 04:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123 Grand Haven, MI
patrick
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anyone make a 3.79" stroke crank anymore? .030 over 318 w/a 3.79" is 370CID.....
with KB forged pistons for a 4" crank and 6.25" rods, you have a short block with the pistons .010 out of the hole, diamond forged will be .002 OOTH....
or on the cheap, using .060 over jeep 4L pistons (3.935", 1.58-1.592 CH and .931" pin) and 6.125" chev rods will net you a 0-.012 out of the hole short block....but they have a 13-18cc dish in them....
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD 1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!*** 2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T 2017 Grand Cherokee Overland 2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
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Re: 318 question High RPM Late model
[Re: Moparnut426]
#316491
05/13/09 08:13 PM
05/13/09 08:13 PM
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HotRodDave
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I had a 4inch stroke 4 inch bore 68 318 ran real nice.
There is a guy on here with an even bigger bore bigger stroke 318 in his aspen.
If I was you I would just buy a steel crank for a 360 and put it in a 360, even .060 over will not be too many cubes. This will make more power because you valves will be less shrouded.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: 318 question High RPM Late model
[Re: Moparnut426]
#316493
05/13/09 11:29 PM
05/13/09 11:29 PM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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i have a brand new in the box mopar 3.51" forged crank,i'll take $350.00 plus shipping
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Re: 318 question High RPM Late model
#316494
05/14/09 08:23 AM
05/14/09 08:23 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123 Grand Haven, MI
patrick
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I agree with dave, if you're limited to 3.58" stroke, you're better off using a 360. less valve shrouding....and if you only need 450-500 HP to be competitive, why do you need to buzz it to 7k+ RPM? why not build it for midrange power with a torque peak in the 4-4500 RPM range and a HP peak in the 5500-6000 range?
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD 1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!*** 2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T 2017 Grand Cherokee Overland 2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
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Re: 318 question High RPM Late model
[Re: Moparnut426]
#316496
05/14/09 10:00 AM
05/14/09 10:00 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123 Grand Haven, MI
patrick
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dirt track is my favorite roundy round to watch, but i haven't been to one in years, but I didn't think the wissota cars I used to watch up in Proctor or Superior spun that high.
I'd suggest talking to Jesse Lackman, I think he's had experience building dirt track motors, and I think Don (Moparsforlife) has friends who are heavy into the dirt track scene in N. Dakota....they might be able to give some advice.
what heads are allowed to be exact? aftermarket iron OK? I presume so since the W2's are class legal. for that kind of RPM I guess I'd be inclined to go short stroke/big bore to minimize valve shrouding and piston speed while maximizing displacement. a 383 with a crank destroked to 3.25" would net 369 CID, 374 CID at .030 over. add some indy SR's, and a small dome piston (~12cc) and you're in the 11.5:1 compression range.
with a 4.25" basic bore, you're looking at BBC standard bore sizes, so there's a ton of pistons out there that you might be able to adapt with some rework of the dome/valve pockets.
looking at the Kieth Black forged pistons for 454's, doing the math,
BBC pistons with a 1.27 comp height and 7.1" rods gets you .015 out of the hole
BBC pistons with a 1.52" comp height and 6.8" rods gets you .035 in the hole
BBC pistons with a 1.645 comp height, couple that with some BBC 6.7" rods and a 3.25" stroke, and you're looking at a piston sitting .010 in the hole.
granted main and rod journals (assuming using shelf 2.2" journal BBC rods) are bigger than an LA, but mains are smaller than a 360....
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD 1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!*** 2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T 2017 Grand Cherokee Overland 2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
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Re: 318 question High RPM Late model
[Re: patrick]
#316497
05/14/09 10:14 AM
05/14/09 10:14 AM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 12,008 Finally a HUSKER again
Moparnut426
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Quote:
dirt track is my favorite roundy round to watch, but i haven't been to one in years, but I didn't think the wissota cars I used to watch up in Proctor or Superior spun that high.
I'd suggest talking to Jesse Lackman, I think he's had experience building dirt track motors, and I think Don (Moparsforlife) has friends who are heavy into the dirt track scene in N. Dakota....they might be able to give some advice.
what heads are allowed to be exact? aftermarket iron OK? I presume so since the W2's are class legal. for that kind of RPM I guess I'd be inclined to go short stroke/big bore to minimize valve shrouding and piston speed while maximizing displacement. a 383 with a crank destroked to 3.25" would net 369 CID, 374 CID at .030 over. add some indy SR's, and a small dome piston (~12cc) and you're in the 11.5:1 compression range.
with a 4.25" basic bore, you're looking at BBC standard bore sizes, so there's a ton of pistons out there that you might be able to adapt with some rework of the dome/valve pockets.
looking at the Kieth Black forged pistons for 454's, doing the math,
BBC pistons with a 1.27 comp height and 7.1" rods gets you .015 out of the hole
BBC pistons with a 1.52" comp height and 6.8" rods gets you .035 in the hole
BBC pistons with a 1.645 comp height, couple that with some BBC 6.7" rods and a 3.25" stroke, and you're looking at a piston sitting .010 in the hole.
granted main and rod journals (assuming using shelf 2.2" journal BBC rods) are bigger than an LA, but mains are smaller than a 360....
Well, we are allowed to run a W2 iron head, a very specific part number for some reason, 11:1 comp, flat tops only, no domes whatsoever. We are limited to a 4.060 bore, and limited to a 3.58 stroke. They are really stupid on some of the rules, but thats racing. The local track just coppied a set of rules from another track, and that track copied the rules from an old NASCAR dirt rule book. No porting, and no roller cams. Oiling mods, and oddball combos are welcomed, as long as the rules are followed. Small block mopars have an advantage because the only head alowed is a W2, which out flowes any stock chevy, or ford head by about 40cfms. His current SBC has a scat 44, or 42lb crank, king billet rods, and light JE pistons. We cant get a mopar quite that light in rotating mass, but it will make up for that in power. Callies sells a crank thats 3.58 stroke with 340 mains, and is 48lbs ish, if we use a 6" rod, and a custom piston we should be ok to 348 CI, and keep cost relatively low. Im hopeing I can get some roller rockers for the W2 heads without breaking the bank.
Kasey
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Re: 318 question High RPM Late model
[Re: Moparnut426]
#316498
05/14/09 12:02 PM
05/14/09 12:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123 Grand Haven, MI
patrick
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bummer things are so restrictive. I guess I'd use a .020 340 block, personally, or start scouting for a poly block with thick walls to bore out to 4.00 or 4.03.... then you could use KB107's and stock length rods with the 3.58" crank. FWIW, a 3.58" crank, and 6" rods needs a 1.81" CH piston for 0 deck...which is the compression height of a KB167, or a KB 165 (chev 283 app, 3.875" bore, available .060 over, which would be a .025" over 318 bore) KB165's are 488g/145g piston/pin, 167's are 507/132 (odd to me that the larger pin is lighter) I would use these rods: http://www.competitionproducts.com/prodinfo.asp?number=CPXPPF6000that's for a set of 8....killer price, killer rod. but spinning it that high, I'd probably do as long a rod as possible, and look at a shelf 4" stroker piston and a 6.35" long rod...
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD 1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!*** 2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T 2017 Grand Cherokee Overland 2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
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Re: 318 question High RPM Late model
[Re: patrick]
#316499
05/14/09 09:51 PM
05/14/09 09:51 PM
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Moparnut426
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The rods look awsome!! Has any of you guys on here ever use a howards rod?? The guy I talked to said they are 100% US made, in house with us 4140 blanks. He also told me the powdered metal rods are just as ductile as the 4140 billets. They arent brittle like the oem style powdered metal rods.
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Re: 318 question High RPM Late model
[Re: Moparnut426]
#316500
05/14/09 10:52 PM
05/14/09 10:52 PM
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I don't want to rain on your parade---but I think I should!
You are wanting to build a 480HP/two barrel/flat tappet dirt engine. Getting the 480Hp isn't a problem---getting it to live is a problem. Your weak point is the connecting rods/crankshaft. Get the best you can possibly afford---billet rods are the best choice---forget about Eagle, CAT, etc. You need something like an Oliver, King, or Crower seems to work well in this type of application. Why do you need this level of component? The dirt track gets rough---the cars "hook" so well---the vibration will kill substandard components.
Frankly, with a limited budget I would use a 360 block---don't worry about the larger main bearing. Use main and head studs!
Go on over to Moparchat---look in the circle track section---read the "Typical Oiling Modifications". If you follow the instructions, it will keep you out of trouble. While you are at it---prepare two blocks! A good 360 block will be good for 2000 laps!
The W2 heads will be fine with a good valve pocket work, shorted the intake guides 1/2", and make a cutter to machine the valve pocket down to the guide. If rules allow, use 2.06" BBC intake valves(shortened), the standard W2 exhaust is fine. If you can, 11/32" stems is nice but not absolutely essential. Set up a .050" seat width on both I/E. Check your intake manifold very closely for intake port alignment---most intakes require some TIG welding to properly align with the cylinder head intake runners. The heads should flow about 250-260CFM if properly worked.
With the two barrel(500CFM) Holley, you will need a cam with about .600" lift (AT THE VALVE), about 250 degrees @.050"(Intake), about 252 degrees (EXHAUST). Use a lobe separation of 108 degrees. Set the cam in at 104 degrees.
Use exhaust headers with 1 7/8" primary tubes/2" secondary/3 1/2" collector.
Use an MSD ignition, 32 degrees (Locked), 6AL box will be OK.
Buiding a good SB Mopar for limited late model is fun---just remember those chassis/tires are very hard on components.
I honestly think your budget needs to be at least $6K---with you doing all the engine work---and that's tight!
Good Luck!
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