40 Hours of Air Left ! 13,000 Feet to Titanic is pretty Deep !

Technically, it is just a submersible since it isn't self propelled. I can just move up, down, and basic motion.

Wow , Thank You for Info . US Coast Guard just reported Youngest Member on board the Sub is 19 Years Old . Lots of Naval Ships Scrambling to Help . naval .

13000 ft down in a home built submersible just sounds like a bad idea.

Battery Powered I'd assume.

The owner/pilot sounds like a real toolbag. Fired an employee for pointing out safety issues with the sub. Read an interview with him where he pretty much claimed safety regulations were stupid.

Karma's a b*tch!

Saw that its actually illegal to go down and tour the titanic, you can only go down there for research purposes so the CEO was scamming from one end to the other right off the bat

Yeah, he lists the passengers as "mission specialists".

There's not even any seats in that thing. They're barefoot sitting on the floor.

“Everything else can fail. Your thrusters can go, your lights can go — you’re still going to be safe,”



Stockton Rush, CEO of Oceangate, currently on board the sub testing weather that statement is true.

Also Oceangate sounds like Watergate don't it?

An interesting interview. This guy makes sense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHFI7ddyK-c

Posted this thread in the other topic as well.

https://twitter.com/cfishman/status/1671588858750803974

Well they're having a "$250,000 trip of a lifetime", one way or another.

I've been watching it closely, a lot of artillery just showed up in form of ROV's, 5 or 6 of them that can all go even deeper than the Titanic.

Just read a CBS (I think) story that said that "4 days of air" spec is all theoretical, nobody's every stayed in it that long to check...

The sea.
As land creatures humans have “learned the hard way” a vast amount from the sea.

Humans have “learned the hard way” a vast amount from mining deep down into the earth.

But there is an old folk saying:

There is no education in the second kick of a mule.

The first many kicks of the mule here were all the avoidable mistakes in the original sinking of the Titanic.

I can see taking risks and spending of funds of diving deep
to explore “Black Smokers” in the deep sea
or looking for nodules of needed minerals on deep sea floors,
or looking for the sunken Czarist Russian Navy warship with a payroll of Gold coins,
but this “adventure tourism”
is consuming tax dollars for rescue
and luring “clicks” for advertising $ in a bad way.

Debris field found.......

If the thing blew up/in I am going to guess it was hull fatigue from multiple dives without much testing before/after each one.

They found the landing frame and the rear cone, the center section hull is gone / shattered. Likely trying to bring it up now

Treating it like it was a tourist destination and profiting off of it was despicable anyhow.

Like school on Sundays. No class!

Press briefing soon.

That's why they called it "scientific research". Tourist diving the site is illegal.

Wall Street Journal article Friday says the vessel had “a novel carbon-fiber hull”

Saw a bit that someone who used to work for the company sued on the grounds that there were more and more minute stress cracks developing in the carbon fiber hull after each high pressure dive…the company settled out of court and continued diving…

Interesting video from James Cameron.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEBCc-Qpilw

"Now there is one wreck laying next to the other wreck, for the same damn reason." That end quote there hit hard. Hubris.

I just heard some sort of expert on the radio down under (excuse the Pun). He stated that the reported banging every half hour would only be heard if the capsule was made of steel but with a combination of Carbon Fibre and Titanium you may as well bang your head on a wooden log (his words) also they are starting to discover Carbon Fibre can deteriate and develop stress cracks under water especially going through pressure cycles. Also the main observation window was not designed for such depths, this was highlighted by the safety officer and because of his insistance he was sacked.
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The banging noises were simply from other ships in the area, but the doomed sub did have titanium end caps so they indeed had something to bag on if that was the case.

The wikipedia page is an eye opener

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OceanGate#Titan

The Wikipedia page is indeed an eye opener.

When I heard about the debris field yesterday I thought "no way". If the craft imploded the sound would have been detected by the various agencies around the world that are always listening/monitoring our oceans. Anyone that saw the "Red October" movie or read Clancy's book knows the technology has existed for decades. Someone would have reported the sound, right? Now on Friday morning the Navy admits they heard the breaking up of the sub on Monday. [censored]? What took them so long? Why did they allow all those resources to be deployed and why toy with the hopes of the families? Have we really come to a point where common sense and decency is completely absent from our Government agencies?

Yes the negligence displayed here is astounding. Worse than i imagined. I expect this to result in plenty of litigation, finger pointing, fines, new international regulations, criminal charges and certainly bankruptcy.

The U.S Navy detected the implosion when it happened on Sunday and didn't publicly say anything. They probably didn't want to expose their Top Secret listening capabilities.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-navy-detected-titan-sub-implosion-days-ago-6844cb12
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65994405

Unfortunately, yes.

This technology was Top Secret 40 years ago. Not only do the Russians and Chinese know about this technology, they have the technology themselves. The public learned about this 30 years ago. Who are they trying to kid? The head of the US Navy owes the world an explanation.

Payback for Nordstream?

Common sense or ignorance?

Know of a system existence is one thing, advertising it's abilities is another. Probably had to get approvals to admit anything publicly and being a weekend I am sure those people were out of pocket. The site incident commander knew quickly though.

You really think we are still using that 40 year old technology?

If you believe that, well it explains your indignant comments

While they picked up the sound that lead them to believe it imploded or exploded several days ago, I'd also think they would want to confirm a debris field to support such an event and they wanted to notify all the family members before making a public announcement. While they had the sound evidence, they needed a physical verification. That seems to be normal protocol.

Frankly, why are we all concerned about a handful of people so rich they could pay the equivalent of a house to go on a tourist trip while a ship of 700 sunk off the Greek coast killing hundreds fleeing the political oppression of their authoritarian governments.

Look at this joke....

I agree, mostly.

The whole science of Geology was significantly advanced when the magnetic sensing part of that “submarine listening” system was shared with the public and showed that the ocean floor was mostly on/off flows of undersea lava, and that the Earth’s magnetic North/South poles “flip” repeatedly over long time periods.

I say “mostly” above
because the Navy may have hugely upgraded that undersea system to do far more than sense sound and magnetism.

There is a huge “stream” or “flux” of sub-atomic particles flowing through the Earth and oceans that could be used to detect submarines and “who knows” what secret sensors may have been made good enough to be of military use.

Sonar has been around a long time but I personally was surprised at how clear and detailed the 12,500 foot deep sonar scan from a surface ship was that the Wall Street Journal had in their article.

I hope the US Navy can do things no other navy can do.

I was flipping threw the news channels last night and i still have not seen the debris field. Guess they don't have time to look over everything to distinguish if it might be a body part. At that depth i doubt anything is left.

Watch the youtube videos of "Smarter Every Day" where he spends time on the nuclear submarine.

The bodies were vaporized. No trace will ever be found of them.

I kinda lean toward that conclusion that nothing identifiable remains,
especially since the implosion allegedly was sonar located at 9,000 feet, giving 3500 feet above sea bottom for currents to carry off remainders.

On the other hand the Russian Submarine K-129 that imploded at great depth
had identifiable sailor remains when the Golmar Explorer crane lifted it up many months later:

https://www.maritime-executive.com/features/grand-finale-for-infamous-glomar-explorer-part-1_1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glomar_Explorer

Big differences between the vessels.

Think about what happens to air in your air compressor. Going from static to 130psi and the heat in that air. Multiply that change times 100 or 1000. Happens so fast, it never registers with the person.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-66045554

pictures of wreckage being transferred ship to truck

They found traces of them

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...sion-debris-remains-latest-b2365445.html

Human body is 80% water?
Water handles high PSI rather well.
I suspect remains suffered from extreme blunt force trauma as the seawater rushed in at very high speed in what has been estimated within 20 milliseconds?
An analogy might be similar to dropping a water balloon into deep water, it would be impacted little any at depth it sank to, even if it had any air trapped within.

The air bubble they were sitting in would be akin to a diesel combustion chamber, but not 50 to 1 compression, 38 million to one, each. Cooked, then shot out of a cannon to be one with the sea

Which begs the question, why arent we using deep sea pressure for free energy?

I have read that the composite shell was 5 inches thick but in the pictures the broken edges look more like ‘eggshells’ at first glance.

If the center section had been all titanium what would have been the added cost, is a thought.
Divide that cost by five passengers.
Compare to vacation voyage price per paying passenger.
Compare to passenger net worth in $.

I have no idea what your point is here.
And there is no such thing yet, as "free energy".

The pictures you saw IMO are akin to seeing the body sheet metal after the wreck of a NASACR stocker, ie they were only the cosmetic outer shell, not the structure.

I read the original design called for a 7" thick pressure vessel, but they reduced it to 6". Properly manufactured 96" diameter cylinder shaped CF will handle 6K psi all day long, but cyclical fatigue life with that loading is above my pay grade. I don't know how low temperature might under rate it, and I have no idea what safety factor is at play. The most problematic aspect is the proper connection/retention of the CF with the needed Titanium hard points in the design and the likely source that initiated the fatal failure.

The CF material choice was likely a huge initial cost savings in material and fabrication, and a weight savings vs Titanium.

as much as this is a human tragedy, man will add to his knowledge.
this is a "well, back to the drawing board" moment in history.............

The white pieces you see in the salvage parts and in pictures of the sub before the dive are just a nice looking façade and have nothing to do with the carbon fiber tube holding the pressure... I have not seen any carbon fiber pieces in the recovered pics likely because it shattered and mostly floated off in the current. That brings us to why he chose CF instead of Fe or Ti, it could float with the air trapped inside where Ti and Fe would not float and would need propulsion capable of bringing it back up or 2.5 mile cable. This is why he thought he could not die, his theory was that the ballast that made it sink was supported by ropes that would dissolve in the sea water after a day or so and they would float back up and be found and rescued within the 5 days before the oxygen ran out. Some people are slamming him for using a cheap Ti and plexiglass end cap saying those likely were what failed (at least before the pics showed up of the parts) but in the pictures of recovered parts those appear to be totally intact. Some people seem to want the carbon fiber failure to have not been the cause because it is "new" and cool but from what I have seen they most likely caused the failure of the sub. Sometimes old and proven technology just doesn't need to be replaced. The CF evidently could not handle the cold and enormous load cycling, 5500 PSI is like having a modern 1/2 ton 4x4 4 door truck pressing on one square inch of the sub, if it had (just ball parking and probably a low estimate) 200 square feet of surface area with 5500# pressing on every square inch that is like having 28,800 of those 1/2 ton trucks pressing on the sub or over 158 MILLION pounds of force, you can evidently only load and unload 158 million pounds on the tiny sub before it gives up, based on testimony of previous "explorers" the thing would snap crackle and pop all the way down and back up so it should have been clear it was degrading with the cycles and was no doubt going to fail. As for what happened to the people inside they were crushed like a fly with a sledge hammer, whatever bits and pieces they have found of them are only going to be identified by DNA testing.

The 158 millions lbs you note is engineering wise irrelevant, and I will leave it at that.

Might be, but the fly being squished by the sludge hammer is a petty realistic vision. As I understand it, they believe the sub wasn't even 1/2 way down when it imploded. Picture, if you will, that squashed fly, now drifting 1/2 the distance towards the bottom of the ocean floor. Just how much would you expect to see still together as it passed through the drifting currents and past all the consistently eating sea creatures. Then supposedly, they think they can see human remains (parts of the squished fly) on the ocean floor? I'll be watching to see what human remains they think they are seeing at the bottom.

I think the media is trying really hard to distract the people from things going on that are actually important. They are telling you that can find traces of 5 humans on the ocean floor, but they can't find millions of missing and exploited children every day. Their focus it on the wrong things, and it isn't be accident.

^^^ This.

Human body being 80% water is irrelevant to the compression dynamics.
What happens to the temperature of a volume of air when compressed?
Why does the air in a compressor get hot when pressurized? hmmmm.....


That thing didn't fail where the rate of change was 1 psi a minute.

Have at it.

Just who is paying for this salvage? Why even try?

But look at all the "valuable experience" the guys with the expensive toys are getting on our money.

Human body being 80% water is irrelevant to the compression dynamics.
What happens to the temperature of a volume of air when compressed?
Why does the air in a compressor get hot when pressurized? hmmmm.....


That thing didn't fail where the rate of change was 1 psi a minute.

Have at it.
You understand water may compress only say 1% when under thousands of PSI, right?
Meaning, pressure alone effects water volume very little, but the likely impact of that high velocity water mass propelled by a high-pressure change does inflict damage, which is what I stated that you quoted above.
Temperature is also irrelevant in this discussion, especially when there is little volume change.
Deep ocean floor currents appear to be nonexistent near the debris field, based on the little dispersion, regardless of the depth that the failure took place.
Same can be said for sea life

.

I seen on the news they are sifting threw the remains for body parts. Still haven't seen the debris field.

Superheated air killed them in a nanosecond from the air mass being compressed. Being 80% water help them become steam.

Probably the tube collapsed and the end caps were slammed together.

The problem with water being basically un compressible is it would not have occurred exactly evenly over their body like it would have if they were already in the water VS a pocket of air, the walls closing in at thousand miles an hour (Hyperbole as I don't know the exact speed but rest assured it was extremely fast and certainly over mock 1) would have smashed them into oblivion, probably from the center of the tube where the collapse probably started and forcing them into the titanium ends that appear to have not been significantly damaged, the exact damage done to certain individuals probably depended on who was sitting exactly where... my guess is stockton was sitting in the window and driving it and likely to find bits and pieces of him or whoever was in the opposite end, since there was no window in the opposite end the individual closest to that end is the most likely to find bits of them. The heat probably caused some charing on the surface but they were not totally incenerated or turned to steam because there would not have been nearly enough oxygen to combust all the HCs (A/F ratio was waaay to rich) and boil all the water in their body fast enough before the increasing pressure held it from vaporizing, the higher heat from compression could not heat it enough to vaporize the water in their body as the increasing pressure was working to keep the water a liquid ( also think about a steak when you cook it if the heat is way too high it can burn the outside but the inside is still cold and how at lower elevation water needs to be hotter to boil because of higher atmospheric pressure), I suspect most of the damage to their bodies and what killed them was from 5000+ PSI pressure differential unevenly squashing them.

Also there ARE significant ocean currents at the Titanic, it has caused problems in the past with the live broadcast from the russian sub 20 years ago for example getting stuck in the Titanic for an hour or so before getting free. It had to be NEAR (but not ON) the bottom or the stuff would have been spread all over the Atlantic and I have not seen any carbon fibre in the pics so it probably shattered into tiny bits and was washed away by those currents since it is much lighter than steel, titanium or other stuff the ship was made of and the way it shatters the particles would have easily drifted away had it been ON the ocean floor.

If the pressure hull failed as it appears, the internal air likely escaped during the implosion, any air at 6000? psi then became the reduced volume of maybe of a few? gallons, and as noted any heating was in milliseconds as it reached it's final volume if trapped, which IMO is doubtful with the water's inertia, of high-speed water movement during an implosion.

Edit "Gerhard Seiffert, a deep-water marine archaeologist who recently led an expedition to scan the wreckage of the Titanic in high resolution, told the BBC that he did not believe the currents in the area were strong enough to pose a risk to a submersible – provided it had power."
I have read nothing compelling that indicates strong currents are ever normal.

Expecting the entire CF to shatter entirely into small ill retrievable pieces simultaneously would mean that the hull had to be equally stressed over its entire surface and that the composite material be equally strong on the entire same area and not suffer from any individual point being weak or have a single imperfection, defect or "wound". That is like a balloon bursting at every spot at the same time. That is almost IMO an unbelievable real-world requirement. What could explain that with my limited knowledge would be a secondary, post initial failure, by opposite facing hull surfaces colliding during failure and contacting each other at high speed and shattering, making the pieces difficult to locate and retrieve.

The large secondary non pressure containing outer sheet thin composite coverings retrieved would have been highly susceptible I concede to any ocean currents at the time.
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I look at this like I look at a catastrophic high rpm engine explosion. What caused it and what happened first? At the end of the day it's typically all speculation.

From what I seen/learned a completely round hull is what should be used because it allows even pressure all the way around it. The Titan was tube shape combined with the the questionable materials used didn't help.

Of course, but still there was a cause, and prejudging it is unproductive to gain that insight.

edit, I have not seen anything to definitively indicate the rear tear shaped tail was part of the main pressure hull and under any differential pressure/ meaning the main cylinder had two similar shaped dome ends, one with a viewing port, and attached similarly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlvyZ1r1DCM


This video shows some of the different materials they use for these things and a few others, the demonstration is a good representation of the two titanium end caps pressing into the carbon fiber tube but don't show the forces applied to the sides of the tube so not a complete picture but will give you some idea of what it would have experienced and why I think the two end caps may have slammed together...

This sounds plausible. From the little I know about carbon fiber, in the event of failure, it's usually the resin shattering. The fibers then just return to their normal state of, basically, fabric.

In this case, the resin failed, the fibers turned back into fabric and the end caps accordioned in. 5 or 6 human bodies got compressed into less than a cubic yard.

Since human bodies are 80%? water, and water under 6000Psi on loses approx 1% in volume, meaning if they started out at 1 sq yard, I would have to agree with you.

It is not a good representation. Nobody builds an engine with alum rods the same physical dimension of a steel rod. Nobody compares CF vs steel in the same physical dimension when strength is an objective. , meaning CF has maybe 5 times the strength of Steel by weight, the CF tube should have been a much larger dimension and or at least used equal weight test samples.
BTW, do we know for certain what material the end caps, (not the fastening rings) were made of?

edit: I just watched a utube video that clearly shows the two pressure hull dome end caps, It states they fabricated from Ti.
One odd observation of the one recovered view port end cap is the viewing window is missing as its lifted off the recovery ship. Seems like its removal to aid recovery would rather be burdensome and unlikely IMO
So where when did it separate? I can't understand it separating in an implosion unless maybe it instigated the implosion, I suspect the window was fastened to mainly resist pressure from the outside, and pressure on the inside was never expected.

https://slate.com/technology/2023/0...bmersible-oceangate-titan-implosion.html

sample quote

After the OceanGate Titan disaster, in which five people died when the submersible imploded, I think we can all agree that rich guys who cut corners do not make great submersible engineers. But scientists have been using submersibles for decades—and with the proper safety precautions, deep-sea dives are actually quite safe. The Alvin, for example, was one of the first research submersibles, and has completed more than 5,000 dives since the mid-1960s with no deaths or serious injuries—in fact, it is likely in the water right now. In addition to scientists, the Alvin has shuttled more than 10,000 observers, just like me, to witness the magic of the deep sea. Despite the pristine track records of the Alvin and other research submersibles like it, last month’s highly public submersible disaster is making some scientists concerned about the future of their work.

end quote

If one could see the debris field i bet the end caps where intact. Pressure on the sides of the CF or where it came together with the end caps are where it ruptured. I just found this video of the debris they pulled up and they show the end caps intact.

Video shows one viewing port end cap. The second end cap is not obvious IMO based on only what the attached video shows. Care to elaborate?