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Dakota subframe on a 1941 plymouth, info please.
#314381
05/11/09 04:16 AM
05/11/09 04:16 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,645
San Jose,CA
migsBIG
OP
YouTube is my go-to news source
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OP
YouTube is my go-to news source
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,645
San Jose,CA
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I have heard and saw a few pics of someone putting a dakota front sub onto a pre-war mopar and was wondering if anybody here has done, seen one done or can relay some info. I saw some pics here a few weeks ago on someone doing it to a plymouth. The pics looked like they added a clip by maybe cutting the top of the frame rails off and welding the dakota on??? I was cunfused at the pics , so anyone with knowledge would be a big help. SO basically, these are my questions: Can you clip a dakota with little problems? What year dakota's are best? Will hanging front sheetmetal back be a problem? Will there me more room for exhaust and stuff? Can the original motor mounts supports in the dakota frame be used to mount a v-8, or do you have to reweld a motor mount erea for engine placement (plan on running a small block mopar). Any help would be appreciated. 
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Re: Dakota subframe on a 1941 plymouth, info please.
[Re: RodStRace]
#314383
05/11/09 05:56 PM
05/11/09 05:56 PM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,884
Tracy CA
rabid scott
"You're Where?"
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"You're Where?"
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,884
Tracy CA
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Hi Miguel! The Dakota front clip seems like the hot ticket for these cars. I got measurements from Ron on here and the frame width and height is dead nuts for a '40 Dodge Coupe I got a while back. I don't know if you've checked it out yet, but there's some good stuff in this thread. Some Plymouth pictures, and some pictures of frames with the Dak frame installed. https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...e=3#Post5004671
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Re: Dakota subframe on a 1941 plymouth, info please.
[Re: migsBIG]
#314385
05/12/09 12:42 PM
05/12/09 12:42 PM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,884
Tracy CA
rabid scott
"You're Where?"
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"You're Where?"
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,884
Tracy CA
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Yep, I'd a huge fan of getting the best bang for the buck!
The first gen Daks had the 5 x 4 1/2 bolt pattern, so those are the ones I'd look for. The later six lug rotors interchange, if that's what you find, but I'd just as soon look for the right stuff first time around.
My plan in a nutshell is to find a whole running and driving first gen Dakota, part out the body until I'm down to the frame and running gear, then pull the '40 coupe frame, weld in the front clip, put the Dak rearend and suspension into the original rear frame section, then reinstall the coupe body and running gear, then fab up whatever is left to mount the front sheetmetal, bumper and radiator, and then start driving!
I'd like to get started on this this Summer, if I finish up my other projects. I bet I could have the whole project running and driving for under $1500 if I find the right Dakota cheap enough.
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Re: Dakota subframe on a 1941 plymouth, info please.
[Re: rabid scott]
#314386
05/12/09 01:44 PM
05/12/09 01:44 PM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
RodStRace
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
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One way to figure out how to remount the front sheetmetal that is in the Tex Smith book was pretty smart. What the guy did was to build a jig that bolted into the firewall area and located where the radiator support slot was in the original frame. This way, when the front frame section was removed and replaced, he had a way to locate a new crossmember in the exact same spot. This spot is where the radiator support mounts, and all the front sheetmetal is hung from it. It keeps all the sheetmetal located properly. There is the issue of sagging body mounts. It might be a good idea to install the new crossmember a bit low, so you can shim up if needed. Too high would suck! Provided you can locate the radiator support in the same place, the rest should be easier. You may have to trim the old lower inners or fab up some new ones. 
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Re: Dakota subframe on a 1941 plymouth, info please.
[Re: RodStRace]
#314387
05/12/09 02:59 PM
05/12/09 02:59 PM
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 34,925
S.E. South Dakota !
bigdad
Still Posting A Lot
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Still Posting A Lot
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 34,925
S.E. South Dakota !
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Awhile back one of the rags
Did three similar vehicles
One using a camaro clip
One putting a M11 on
And one updating the stock type front with dropped spindles, disc brakes, etc
Cost wise, it was about a tie work wise it took just as many hours
The biggest issue with the upgrade idea was sourcing all the parts to make it all work together
People forget that when you take a 20 year old (or more)front , most is worn smooth out, lots of times its been hit or driven hard (crash)
And trying to make it work right is like chasing your tail
the pre-post war era Mopars as I have said before
really lend themselves to using the upgrades avail to make them sit lower and put nice brakes on them without any big fab work
Just depends on if you have tools, shop, space to perform the task to do the fabrication invloved
with swaping on a upgraded late model clip
The lips of fools bring them strife, and their mouths invite a beating.Proverbs 18:6
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Re: Dakota subframe on a 1941 plymouth, info please.
[Re: bigdad]
#314388
05/12/09 08:46 PM
05/12/09 08:46 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,449
north of coder
moparx
"Butt Crack Bob"
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"Butt Crack Bob"
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,449
north of coder
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Quote:
Awhile back one of the rags
Did three similar vehicles
One using a camaro clip
One putting a M11 on
And one updating the stock type front with dropped spindles, disc brakes, etc
Cost wise, it was about a tie work wise it took just as many hours
The biggest issue with the upgrade idea was sourcing all the parts to make it all work together
People forget that when you take a 20 year old (or more)front , most is worn smooth out, lots of times its been hit or driven hard (crash)
And trying to make it work right is like chasing your tail
the pre-post war era Mopars as I have said before
really lend themselves to using the upgrades avail to make them sit lower and put nice brakes on them without any big fab work
Just depends on if you have tools, shop, space to perform the task to do the fabrication invloved
with swaping on a upgraded late model clip
 dad is right on. 
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Re: Dakota subframe on a 1941 plymouth, info please.
[Re: Greg55_99]
#314395
07/25/09 11:43 PM
07/25/09 11:43 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,585
Freeport IL USA
poorboy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,585
Freeport IL USA
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Quote:
I actually have a 77 Volare Road Runner and was looking at replacing the torsion bar front end with a Dakota setup. I've looked at the Industrial Chassis product but, if I can section a stock Dakota frame, that would be a lot simpler. Can you post some more pics of how you did this?
Greg
Am I understanding you want to replace the trosion bar suspension on a 77 Road Runner (Volare) with a clip from a Dakota? Are we talking about still under the Runner, or do you have the Road Runner suspension under an old car and want to replace it?
If its still under the Road Runner, you are looking at a major swap. The Road Runner (Volare) is a unibody car, removing that suspension to install a Dakota clip will require removing everything from the firewall forward, then figure out how to attach the Dakota frame to the unibody car undercarage. The Dakota frame rails should sit inside the Volare "rails" but the Volare front subframe connection to the trans cross member is a weak link at best to begin with. You will probably end up fabricating brackets to connect the Dakota frame to the Volare rocker boxes. Can be done, just not easy.
If you have a Volare clip under an old car, you still have to cut off the frame from the firewall forward to remove the Volare clip, then attach the Dakota clip to the existing original frame. At least Mopars built before 57 still have a real box style full length frame under them, and the Dakota frame rails (also a box style frame) match up about the firewall very well.
The Dakota frame of choice would be the 87-90 because they still had the 5 on 4 1/2" bolt pattern wheels. The next generation Dakota, 91-96 have the 6 bolt wheel pattern, but the parts can be swapped to the older stuff by simply bolting on the older stuff. The 96 & up Dakota also have the 6 bolt wheels, but the older stuff does not simply bolt on, its easier to just keep the 6 bolt wheels.
You will have to let us know what your working on. Gene
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Re: Dakota subframe on a 1941 plymouth, info please.
[Re: Greg55_99]
#314397
07/26/09 11:35 PM
07/26/09 11:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,585
Freeport IL USA
poorboy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,585
Freeport IL USA
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As long as you understand that your "frame rails" are nothing but formed 16 guage sheet metal with an extra piece of 16 g slid inside and spot welded at reinforcing points, I suppose you can section a Dakota frame, made from 11 guage steel in a near square form, if you want. At least your Volare looks cleaner then the ones around here.
The tread on "updating your 49-51 frame" has demensions of a 92 Dakota frame listed from a factory service manual. That would be a good place to start from, at least it tells you where everything is suppose to be. You may end up cutting holes in your inner fenders for upper shock mounts, or shock clearance. Be very carefull here, those Volare body structures are very light duty, that was why the suspension was mounted on the heavy guage K member, to add in support. I ran a few of those on the local dirt track, did not hold up well at all. Gene
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Re: Dakota subframe on a 1941 plymouth, info please.
[Re: Greg55_99]
#314399
07/28/09 09:59 PM
07/28/09 09:59 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,585
Freeport IL USA
poorboy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,585
Freeport IL USA
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Greg, Gotta ask, are you just updating the suspension, or are you building a race car of some sort? Are you installing a roll bar/cage? What you intend on doing with the car as a final outcome will have a huge effect on how you want to modify the front suspension.
Years ago, I grafted a C body front frame onto a Duster, but that car was a dirt track car with over 150' of tubing in it. The "new" front end had more then a floor pan and inner fenders for support.
The mid 70s B body had a real beefy subframe that a straight torsion bar suspension bolted to, that one you could have pretty well done anything you wanted to with. Even the last A bodys had decent subframes under them. The Volare was the only Mopar I ever raced that had the subframe seperate from the trans crossmember in an accident, and that happened with 2 different cars. Understand my concerns with a Volare?
Were I doing your car, I would probably graft the Dakota frame, back to the transmission crossmember area, onto and in place of your existing subframe. The Dakota frame is straight to back to the rear axle kickup, I might even cut the Dakota frame into your floor pan back to your cars rear subframe, think weld in frame connectors, and weld the dakota frame into your floor pans and tie them to the rockers. Along with reinstalling (welding back on) your modified inner fenders (to clear the shocks) and reinstalling your rad support should give you enough strength to run without a cage. If you are adding a cage, adding a front hoop will eliminate the need to reinstall the inner fenders and rad support, unless you wanted to. It would be a lot of work. Gene
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Re: Dakota subframe on a 1941 plymouth, info please.
[Re: poorboy]
#314400
07/29/09 06:58 AM
07/29/09 06:58 AM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 300
MA
Greg55_99
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 300
MA
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Hello Gene,
I'll be running a strictly street car with a 440 dropped in. No roll cage, no racing. Just better handling. My thoughts were to surgically remove the front crossmember from the Dakota and weld that onto the existing Volare front frame rails. I'm also going to tie the front and rear frame together. I will also be removing the upper support brace above the transmission mount to make space for a Tremec TKO. So, no dirt track, no quarter mile.
After listening to you, it appears the Alterktion front suspension might be the better deal.
Greg
Last edited by Greg55_99; 07/29/09 09:41 AM.
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Re: Dakota subframe on a 1941 plymouth, info please.
[Re: Greg55_99]
#314401
07/30/09 12:17 AM
07/30/09 12:17 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,585
Freeport IL USA
poorboy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,585
Freeport IL USA
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Quote:
Hello Gene,
I'll be running a strictly street car with a 440 dropped in. No roll cage, no racing. Just better handling. My thoughts were to surgically remove the front crossmember from the Dakota and weld that onto the existing Volare front frame rails. I'm also going to tie the front and rear frame together. I will also be removing the upper support brace above the transmission mount to make space for a Tremec TKO. So, no dirt track, no quarter mile.
After listening to you, it appears the Alterktion front suspension might be the better deal.
Greg
Greg,
Got a link to this "Alterktion" front suspension? I do not know what it is.
The issue I see with just using the Dakota front crossmember on the Volare rails is the difference in physical size of the Dakota crossmember compaired to the physical size of the Volare rails. The guage thickness difference between the 2 is not considered at this point. The Dakota crossmember is a 4-5" box where the Volare rails are about 3 1/2" high. Then once you take into count the guage thickness between the Dakota at about 11 guage and the Volare at about 16 guage, the difference in physical size could become a real problem, esspecially when you consider that is the same location as both the upper and lower control arms and the 440 engine mounts. That seems like a lot of load for 16 guage frame rails to me.
I still think a better plan would be to remove your front subframe, and install the Dakota frame, complete, back far enough to connect to your rear subframe. Then weld the Dakota frame into the car floor pans, rear sub frames, and reattach the cars front inner fenders and rad support to the Dakota frame. Basically your replacing your light duty frame with one from a Dakota and also using that same Dakota frame as your frame connectors. Then all you would have to do would be follow the link above to the 440 engine mounts in a Dakota frame and your set. All the factory engineering is still in place on the Dakota frame and you can use stock suspension parts and allignment specs. Gene
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