EFI Six-Pack - F&B ?
#312625
05/09/09 12:47 PM
05/09/09 12:47 PM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 5,117 Haslett, MI
7DRRunner
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Posts: 5,117
Haslett, MI
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Anyone familiar with the F&B EFI Six Pack setup ? http://www.fbthrottlebodies.com/products.htmhere's a nice article http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techa...rade/index.htmlMaybe I should convert my 70 RR 440 to a EFI Six pack car expensive ($2,678.00) , but ..... the kit comes fully assembled with three billet throttlebodies, adjustable progressive linkage, fuel rails with billet mounts, IAC, TPS, Fuel rail crossover (AN-8), billet throttle cable mount, and one of three air cleaner options Anyone have experience with F&B ? We have discussed EFI conversions before, but who has actually done it ?
"Good luck on your project."
1970 Road Runner
"Accellertii Incredibus"
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Re: EFI Six-Pack - F&B ?
[Re: cataclysm80]
#312628
05/10/09 10:17 AM
05/10/09 10:17 AM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,383 Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula
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I Live Here
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I would not stagger the opening of the TB's to inccur fuel millage or performance. The efi system should be the tool you use and not the TB for tuning. You will limit or increase air flow hoping the efi will compensate, and it will to a point.
You will have to run the correction limits wide open in order to allow it to compensate, and they typically max out at +/-20% from VE...So anything outside of that, assuming you got VE dead on for the set-up you have it on now, and you have just leaned out or richened the engine out, and the efi cannot compensate and it runs like crap.
The correction factor is the difference between the VE you have programmed into the table and the programmed target A/F...The efi system will compansate the base VE number to achieve the target A/F, assuming you know the right A/F for your engine. Now, when you change the air flow, the VE in the table will be off, and the compensation factor the system needs grows to hit the target A/F. Now under normal conditions, that factor is used to compensate for air temp, humidity and elevation, now you want to throw in the TB.....Well, that only leads to running like crap considering how much you can change it with no less than three TB's.
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Re: EFI Six-Pack - F&B ?
[Re: 7DRRunner]
#312629
05/10/09 12:27 PM
05/10/09 12:27 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,938 Sonora CA
Mopar_Rich
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,938
Sonora CA
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I have done several of these conversions with Bruce at F&B. He's a super guy. I have some pictures on a car that was in a mag and won at Carlyle last year on my web site under "Photos" www.fastmanefi.comThey run very well and Bruce can adapter them to almost any engine.
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Re: EFI Six-Pack - F&B ?
[Re: Mopar_Rich]
#312632
05/10/09 05:51 PM
05/10/09 05:51 PM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 5,117 Haslett, MI
7DRRunner
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besides what comes in the kit, what else would I need ?
"Good luck on your project."
1970 Road Runner
"Accellertii Incredibus"
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Re: EFI Six-Pack - F&B ?
[Re: 7DRRunner]
#312633
05/10/09 09:17 PM
05/10/09 09:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,938 Sonora CA
Mopar_Rich
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
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Sonora CA
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You get the manifold from Bruce at F&B. That includes all the throttle bodies, IAC (idle air control), TPS (throttle position sensor), injectors (size depends on your HP level), linkage etc.
I supply you with all the electronics: ECU (with O2 sensor), dual-sync distributor (for full sequential operation), harness, Sensors: CTS (coolant temp), ATS (air temp), map (manifold vacuum), Laptop software, a base program, tech support.
You would also need an EFI fuel system which requires an EFI pump (45 PSI), an EFI regulator, and a return line to the tank. I can supply all these components too or make suggestions.
Last edited by Mopar_Rich; 05/10/09 09:57 PM.
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Re: EFI Six-Pack - F&B ?
[Re: 7DRRunner]
#312634
05/10/09 09:32 PM
05/10/09 09:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,078 Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Dartman75
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I dunno what is in the kit, but he's a rough list of the stuff: a) fuel tank - proper sized supply line for your HP (3/8" likely). Can modify fuel sender unit - Return line - sump is advisable and my preferred option or you can hear the pump sucking the void on corners below 1/3-1/4 tank it cavitates on corners. b) Pumps, filters and regulors - pre pump filter (100 micron screen, lots of surface area unless you enjoy pumps cavitating and screens plugigng up. - pre rails/injectors filter (10 micron, lots of flow capability so it doesn't plug or restrict or blow out when plugged) - regulator sized to your app, preferrably vacuum referenced not a must - pump sized to your app. Juyst what you need, and do not over doe it. If you go too big it can heat the fuel and Aeromotive recommends a pricy motor speed controller, or you risk hot fuel or worse. If your controller has a RPM switch, you can build your own pump speed control through several means - lots of plumbing hoses and fittings. Get comfortable with AN- fittings as that is the easiest way to route a supply and return line. c) Electrical - you likely need a good 15A circuit for the injectors and controller. 8 low imp injectors will pull 8A a full blast. High imp will pull 16A average and could peak more than that but not usually in a sequential system - 20-30A circuit for yoru fuel pump, depending on size etc - Alternator. You probably have 20+ more amps pulling at low RPM between the pump and EFI stuff, so make sure your alternator puts out at idle ranges. I run a 100A alternator which puts out about around 40-45 at idle and it works for me so far. c) typical kit type stuff - injectors - rails - wiring harness - controllers - Sensors: MAP, TPS, Coolant and Air temp, maybe more d) sensors not likely in the kit - Wideband O2 sensor. A must for tuning. - bung for your exhaust pipe to fit narrow or wideband O2 sensor - plumb a fuel pressure gauge into your regulator or somewhere on your pressure side by the rails so you can see and set what you're getting to your injectors. - in car fuel pressure gauge is handy until you're sure your system is working right. I'm sure I'm missing lots of those little things like cable ties, clamps and that stuff, but this is roughly what a complete system will consist of. If I think of anything else that is important, I'll edit this. I've done this a few times for my car and hit almost all the common pitfalls and money sinks one can come across. I think the 6 pack looks nice, but all that linkage and the less than ida distirbution might be less than ideal, but will still work quite well and even better if the controller you choose will let you fatten up any ports that you can tell are lean. I di a RPM Air-gapo and that work very nicely. This time I'm doing a tunnel ram, and I expect it to work very well for it's nearly uncompromised dry flow characteristics which are great for EFI motors. http://www.telusplanet.net/public/zbhansen/temp/DartNewMotorInstalled.JPGBest of luck. Feel free to ask me any questions about EFI on these old mopars. I see you're already caught the attention of a few of the boards good EFI vendors and experts. Greg
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Re: EFI Six-Pack - F&B ?
[Re: Dartman75]
#312635
01/05/11 01:05 AM
01/05/11 01:05 AM
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 181 Washington State
70chall440
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can the FAST system be used with the EFI six pack? I would like to run one on my AAR tribute restomod. I intend to run a FAST 4150 setup on my hemi roadrunner.
Last edited by 70chall440; 01/05/11 01:06 AM.
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Re: EFI Six-Pack - F&B ?
[Re: Mopar_Rich]
#312637
01/06/11 01:03 AM
01/06/11 01:03 AM
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 181 Washington State
70chall440
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that is outstanding, I am in. still a little ways to go before I need the set up but you have removed this from the "maybe" column to the "difinte" column. thanks.
01 Viper GTS ACR 10 Challenger RT PCP 6spd 70 Challenger 440 6 pac 73 Cuda 416 Road Racer 70 Hemi Roadrunner 01 Ram 4x4 / 98 Ram 3500 91 Stealth RT 05 Durango Hemi 09 Caliber / 99 Dakota 4x4 / 52 Dodge B3B
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Re: EFI Six-Pack - F&B ?
[Re: 70chall440]
#312638
02/09/11 12:36 AM
02/09/11 12:36 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 37 San Diego CA
Bruce K Bridges
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San Diego CA
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AAR tribute? Excellent. We will be at the MATS this year with the 72 Baccaruda and 74 Jensen. Weve done a couple of 6pack EZ systems with great results. Im up to Sacramento for an EZ 6bbl install on another Jensen Interceptor next week. Looking forward to some new projects for 2011! Bruce
Last edited by Bruce K Bridges; 02/09/11 12:39 AM.
I sell fuel injection, but Ill still rebuild your carb if I have to...
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Re: EFI Six-Pack - F&B ?
[Re: cataclysm80]
#312643
02/25/11 08:42 PM
02/25/11 08:42 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 37 San Diego CA
Bruce K Bridges
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History.. I had not seen or heard of EFISIXPACK's system when I was battleing BG850 problems on my Jensen Interceptor. A beer or two later that night we hatched a plan to MPI a sixpack mfld using the two barrel TBs we already made for Magnum motors. The next morning we went at it and it was a bit harder than wed though...even with a full CNC shop at our disposal. Id seen a system using gutted carbs as TBs but that was it. 6 years later, my stuff still doesnt look as good as SIXPACKEFI's...ouch. Supports a lot of HP though, especially in Max Wedge port format. The pricing is a bear as you're selling three complete throttlebodies as well as a fully ported manifold etc. etc. Come to the Mopars at the Strip show (or Spring Fling) and well talk about "show special pricing" if youd like! Hoping to drive the Barracuda in the Slalom this year at least (missed it last year but did drive the Jensen around the cones) Bruce
I sell fuel injection, but Ill still rebuild your carb if I have to...
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Re: EFI Six-Pack - F&B ?
[Re: cataclysm80]
#312644
02/25/11 08:46 PM
02/25/11 08:46 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 37 San Diego CA
Bruce K Bridges
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The a/C is BPEs kit (the car came with A/C from the factory) Everything else is pretty much stock. I had to trim the aircleaner base to fit the compressor. My hose routing is not typical for the kit...
I sell fuel injection, but Ill still rebuild your carb if I have to...
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Re: EFI Six-Pack - F&B ?
[Re: Bruce K Bridges]
#312645
02/26/11 12:57 PM
02/26/11 12:57 PM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,165 Florida
cataclysm80
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Quote:
The pricing is a bear as you're selling three complete throttlebodies as well as a fully ported manifold etc. etc. Come to the Mopars at the Strip show (or Spring Fling) and well talk about "show special pricing" if youd like!
Good to see you here Bruce! Thanks for the AC info!
Actually, I think your pricing is pretty decent if compared to the cost of buying a new stock six pack setup. Your setup costs a little more, but I feel it's worth it for the reliability of fuel injection + increased flow rates and WOW factor. I look forward to owning one of your setups someday. Thanks for giving us such a great product.
Tav
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Re: EFI Six-Pack - F&B ?
[Re: cataclysm80]
#312646
02/28/11 04:27 PM
02/28/11 04:27 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 37 San Diego CA
Bruce K Bridges
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San Diego CA
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Why thanks! 6bbl MPI is a lot of fun to drive! I took a look at some of the previous postings on this topic. The whole reason for running a six barrel intake is to take advantage of the long runner, high velocity central throttle body flow path at low rpm and the short runner, high volumetric flow of the two outer bodies at high rpm. Youve got to have a progressive linkage to make this happen. No amount of tuning the EFi system will "simulate" this fluid dynamic effect. That is why most every new car with a gas motorhas a variable runner intake tract that adjusts the lengths of the intake runners as the RPM/load/etc increases. The beauty thing is I dont need to worry about losing my atomization in the manifold (ported to 48mm +) or maintaining a high vacuum signal to keep the outers from flopping around. Big displacement, big heads and or cams, etc all work with the 6bbl MPI system and you get designed-in tip-in control without any histrionics. Try running a 2000 cfm single blade TB to learn true right foot control... Geeze.. turned into a plug for sixpacks! Now I need to drive... Bruce
I sell fuel injection, but Ill still rebuild your carb if I have to...
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Re: EFI Six-Pack - F&B ?
[Re: 70chall440]
#312648
07/22/11 07:33 PM
07/22/11 07:33 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 37 San Diego CA
Bruce K Bridges
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San Diego CA
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Excellent and thank you! If you or Rocket have any questions, please contact me! Id also like to get some pics and a description of your ride when its done! Bruce
I sell fuel injection, but Ill still rebuild your carb if I have to...
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Re: EFI Six-Pack - F&B ?
[Re: Mopar_Rich]
#312649
07/22/11 08:59 PM
07/22/11 08:59 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,477 Canada
CrAzYMoPaRGuY
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Canada
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Quote:
You get the manifold from Bruce at F&B. That includes all the throttle bodies, IAC (idle air control), TPS (throttle position sensor), injectors (size depends on your HP level), linkage etc.
I supply you with all the electronics: ECU (with O2 sensor), dual-sync distributor (for full sequential operation), harness, Sensors: CTS (coolant temp), ATS (air temp), map (manifold vacuum), Laptop software, a base program, tech support.
You would also need an EFI fuel system which requires an EFI pump (45 PSI), an EFI regulator, and a return line to the tank. I can supply all these components too or make suggestions.
Is the dual sync distributor you sell the same as the Accel dual sync distributor?
And Bruce.... I bet one benefit of the EFI on your Interceptor would be it would probably be superior for all out cornering on a road course.... I say this because my Interceptor has two Edelbrock 500s, runs great in a straight line, runs great through the bends, but I have put it into long corners in a violent way and in certain conditions towards the end of a long corner it sometimes seems to flood/stumble.... if I try driving like I stole it that is....
Beautiful Interceptor Bruce!
CrAzYMoPaRGuY
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Re: EFI Six-Pack - F&B ?
[Re: Mopar_Rich]
#312651
07/23/11 09:21 PM
07/23/11 09:21 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,477 Canada
CrAzYMoPaRGuY
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Canada
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Would it benefit me to swap to the latest FAST system over my Accel gen7 DFI? I have a wideband and dual sync distributor, injectors, Aeromotive fuel system, all my sensors etc.... Is the latest FAST ecu better than an Accel gen7?
CrAzYMoPaRGuY
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Re: EFI Six-Pack - F&B ?
[Re: 70chall440]
#312655
07/25/11 12:43 PM
07/25/11 12:43 PM
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 181 Washington State
70chall440
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Joined: Oct 2009
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Washington State
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To anyone thinking about going this route, I will say up front that what you get far exceeds your expectations. The package will amaze you. Bruce is not only a professional, but a dedicated Mopar lover. He knows what he is talking about and super helpful. I would highly recommend F&B to anyone wanting to include EFI onto thier project. I will be using it for a roadrace/autoX AAR Cuda clone and selected it after talking to Bruce and completing a lot of research. I can't speak highly enough of F&B.
Thanks for making a beautiful, awesome product.
01 Viper GTS ACR 10 Challenger RT PCP 6spd 70 Challenger 440 6 pac 73 Cuda 416 Road Racer 70 Hemi Roadrunner 01 Ram 4x4 / 98 Ram 3500 91 Stealth RT 05 Durango Hemi 09 Caliber / 99 Dakota 4x4 / 52 Dodge B3B
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Re: EFI Six-Pack - F&B ?
[Re: smracing]
#312657
09/13/11 08:58 PM
09/13/11 08:58 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 37 San Diego CA
Bruce K Bridges
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San Diego CA
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My ears were burning! Thanks Rocket resto for the kudos! Wait until you drive it, then it will really shine! All the six pack fun and performance without a wet manifold. No distribution problems (fuel is metered to the valves by the injectors) Feel free to call or email or PM with any questions. Thanks! Bruce
I sell fuel injection, but Ill still rebuild your carb if I have to...
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Re: EFI Six-Pack - F&B ?
[Re: PHJ426]
#312659
06/12/13 03:57 PM
06/12/13 03:57 PM
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 181 Washington State
70chall440
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Washington State
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this is awesome system but not without some issues that have to be overcome. Things like routing the wiring, locating and installing the fuel pump and wiring it all up will take some time and thought. That said, it is a beautiful system.
I would highly recommend that anyone contemplating this read up on EFI systems if they don't have a good working knowledge of them already. It will greatly help you understand what everything does and where it should go.
I will say that if you intend to purchase this system and want to mount the computer inside the car, you need to know that it will take a fairly decent sized hole in the firewall to get all of the wires through to the intake and engine compartment.
01 Viper GTS ACR 10 Challenger RT PCP 6spd 70 Challenger 440 6 pac 73 Cuda 416 Road Racer 70 Hemi Roadrunner 01 Ram 4x4 / 98 Ram 3500 91 Stealth RT 05 Durango Hemi 09 Caliber / 99 Dakota 4x4 / 52 Dodge B3B
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Re: EFI Six-Pack - F&B ?
[Re: 70chall440]
#312660
06/12/13 05:22 PM
06/12/13 05:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,977 U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
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U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
this is awesome system but not without some issues that have to be overcome. Things like routing the wiring, locating and installing the fuel pump and wiring it all up will take some time and thought. That said, it is a beautiful system.
I would highly recommend that anyone contemplating this read up on EFI systems if they don't have a good working knowledge of them already. It will greatly help you understand what everything does and where it should go.
I will say that if you intend to purchase this system and want to mount the computer inside the car, you need to know that it will take a fairly decent sized hole in the firewall to get all of the wires through to the intake and engine compartment.
is the car together and running ?
Pictures
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Re: EFI Six-Pack - F&B ?
[Re: JohnRR]
#312661
06/13/13 12:59 AM
06/13/13 12:59 AM
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 181 Washington State
70chall440
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unfortunately not, I was "distracted" by my 52 B3B Hemi build and my 98 Diesel 3500 repair as well as work. As soon as I get the 52 back together then I will be back to the Cuda. I got hung up in the wiring and lost some steam.
Here are some pictures of where I am with it.
01 Viper GTS ACR 10 Challenger RT PCP 6spd 70 Challenger 440 6 pac 73 Cuda 416 Road Racer 70 Hemi Roadrunner 01 Ram 4x4 / 98 Ram 3500 91 Stealth RT 05 Durango Hemi 09 Caliber / 99 Dakota 4x4 / 52 Dodge B3B
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