Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
#3103242
12/18/22 09:45 AM
12/18/22 09:45 AM
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2boltmain
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The Six Pack/BBL on the 440 is definitely legendary but does anyone have speculation on why Ma Mopar didn't offer dual AFBs? That video Of Nicks Garage using a 1959 dual quad setup (from a 413 or 426 RB?) on a stout 451 stroker B engine made me wonder. The engine made 25 hp less and 30lb ft less with the ancient dual quad as opposed to RPM intake and 750 Holley carb. So with the duals power dropped form 535 to 505 and torque from from 550 to 520. But the power loss would be less dramatic on the level a 440 magnum made stock. On top of this the 1959 manifold is a big open plenum single plane typical of the era- look at the Offenhauser dual quad manifolds. Offenhausers are of the same era tech wise (meaning the true dual plane design that came soon after would have been even more powerful). I remember a display set up circa early 1970ish by one of the Mopar greats (Dick Landy?) on a recipe for the 383 to go faster in the quarter mile. One of the items on display was the late 50s 383 dual quad intake and Carter carbs. Remember this was early 70s. But multiple carbs are always cool and two AFBs inline on a wide B/RB looks so right. Its an older video thats already been discussed here- but here's the link regardless. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wYHE3BlxlQ&t=334s
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: 2boltmain]
#3103250
12/18/22 10:17 AM
12/18/22 10:17 AM
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That would have made the 440 too close in horsepower to the 426 Hemi.
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: 2boltmain]
#3103264
12/18/22 10:59 AM
12/18/22 10:59 AM
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ThermoQuad
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the test was not competed because Nick did not bolt a 6 pak on there to see what happens... Six paks still rule, go get your hemi or your hellcat and let's go play. Have a history lesson, no speculation required : Remember Tom Hoover? He gave seminars at the NEHOA meets back in the 80's when these were just used cars; well they still are. The seminars were held in the ballroom of the host hotel, The meets were always well attended & we had some interesting speakers beside Tom Hoover. One stand out besides Tom but that is another story for another day Anyways Tom would show slides and talk- keeping everyone spellbound till at least midnight. btw there is vhs tape of these seminars out there in the hands of a former NEHOA member. Anyways, the 1972 production hemi car was to be a 4bbl. Tom talked about the 1972 hemi development and what they were doing to pass 72 emissions Dual quads were inefficient so they were going to single 4 barrel to pass emissions and improve driveability. Per Tom the 72 hemi production intake became the 4bbl intake sold by direct connection/mopar performance P4452034. Note the stove pipe connections for manifold heat. I don't recall other than the 72 hemi six pak was not being considered as there was no production hemi six pak intake, but they had tested prototypes and knew the six pak was more efficient feeding fuel to the 8 cylinders - ie faster than any dual quad set up.. He spoke of this more than once and there other informal conversations with him regarding the 6 pak hemi development etc. I have only been in few so called fast street hemi cars over the last 40 yrs that had a secondary hit like a six pak. Gary and Pam built a hemi six pak and Gary and I talked about it at length as he had spoken to Tom as well - see the six pak hemi pic. And of course in the world of street racing the inevitable question would come up Which is faster?? A dual quad hemi or six pak wedge? Well according to Mr Hoover if it's a six pak hemi - it's faster.
Last edited by ThermoQuad; 12/18/22 11:08 AM.
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: 2boltmain]
#3103274
12/18/22 11:09 AM
12/18/22 11:09 AM
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Probably because by the time the 440 came out, and the musclecar era was ramping up, they had learned their lesson that dual quads don't really work well for street driven cars. The fuel distribution is very poor at low rpm use. The rear carb primaries are too far away from the front cylinders, resulting in uneven mixtures from the front of the engine, compared to the rear. Great for full throttle racing, but pretty bad in a daily driver. I think they installed them on the 426 Hemi mostly because it made the dual quads factory equipment, which made them legal for racing classes. The Six Pack however has excellent fuel distribution. The center carb is perfectly spaced front to rear, offers high vacuum for great throttle response and driveability, and the outer carbs feed evenly when all 3 are open. The Six Pack is a very good system compared to dual quads. Tom Hoover had planned to put the Six Pack on the Hemi too. They really should have. But by about 1970, they knew the end of performance cars was near, so they would not have bothered developing new performance parts and packages for factory built cars.
Last edited by demon; 12/18/22 11:13 AM.
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: cudaman1969]
#3103277
12/18/22 11:24 AM
12/18/22 11:24 AM
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Gary and I had lunch with Tom Hoover at Carlisle, and he told us what he remembered about the prototype Six Pack intakes for them Hemi. Supposedly there were two of the intakes produced and tested,but they didn't yield the emission standards they were hoping to achieve,but he was pleased with the performance of the Six Pack on the Hemi. He couldn't remember the horsepower numbers it put out.though. Gary had talked to Mopar Performance about producing the Six Pack intake manifold for the Hemi which they eventually did produce and offer the intake to the public.
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: cudaman1969]
#3103438
12/18/22 09:42 PM
12/18/22 09:42 PM
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^^^^^^ hmm, a sixpac Rat Roaster.. The Edelbrock STR14-6 was the rat roaster intake for the 440 Sixpack application.
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#3103485
12/19/22 01:15 AM
12/19/22 01:15 AM
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They work well with a big cam,a tall converter,and a lot of gear!
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: chargervert]
#3103496
12/19/22 02:22 AM
12/19/22 02:22 AM
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Gary and I had lunch with Tom Hoover at Carlisle, and he told us what he remembered about the prototype Six Pack intakes for them Hemi. Supposedly there were two of the intakes produced and tested,but they didn't yield the emission standards they were hoping to achieve,but he was pleased with the performance of the Six Pack on the Hemi. He couldn't remember the horsepower numbers it put out.though. Gary had talked to Mopar Performance about producing the Six Pack intake manifold for the Hemi which they eventually did produce and offer the intake to the public. One of the prototype Hemi 6-Packs Mike
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: 2boltmain]
#3103544
12/19/22 11:15 AM
12/19/22 11:15 AM
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Probably the same reason there was no large port version, and no solid lifter version.
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: 2boltmain]
#3103628
12/19/22 03:54 PM
12/19/22 03:54 PM
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The better question is why did they not put the 440 CID short block under the hemi heads??? There wouldn't be any of this stupid debate about 426 hemi vs 440 6bbl, the hemi would have had the TQ like a 440 6 pack PLUS the top end of the hemi.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: HotRodDave]
#3103631
12/19/22 04:17 PM
12/19/22 04:17 PM
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cudaman1969
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The better question is why did they not put the 440 CID short block under the hemi heads??? There wouldn't be any of this stupid debate about 426 hemi vs 440 6bbl, the hemi would have had the TQ like a 440 6 pack PLUS the top end of the hemi. All it would be is a 1/16” bigger bore
Last edited by cudaman1969; 12/19/22 04:18 PM.
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: HotRodDave]
#3103637
12/19/22 04:37 PM
12/19/22 04:37 PM
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The better question is why did they not put the 440 CID short block under the hemi heads??? There wouldn't be any of this stupid debate about 426 hemi vs 440 6bbl, the hemi would have had the TQ like a 440 6 pack PLUS the top end of the hemi. See "ball stud hemi" if I remember correct.
"I think its got a hemi"
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: HotRodDave]
#3103661
12/19/22 05:46 PM
12/19/22 05:46 PM
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The better question is why did they not put the 440 CID short block under the hemi heads??? There wouldn't be any of this stupid debate about 426 hemi vs 440 6bbl, the hemi would have had the TQ like a 440 6 pack PLUS the top end of the hemi. That's what Stage V was doing before Mopar Performance was making new Hemi blocks.
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: cudaman1969]
#3103703
12/19/22 08:02 PM
12/19/22 08:02 PM
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The better question is why did they not put the 440 CID short block under the hemi heads??? There wouldn't be any of this stupid debate about 426 hemi vs 440 6bbl, the hemi would have had the TQ like a 440 6 pack PLUS the top end of the hemi. All it would be is a 1/16” bigger bore The extra 14 CID would have been good for at least 15 LBS TQ and another 5 or 10 HP, it would have added a little more throttle response for the roll racing type, as close as people think they are now that would have easily tipped the scales in the flavor of the Hemi.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: A12]
#3103761
12/19/22 10:13 PM
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What were the warranty periods and mileage for the 440 engines over the years of fitment? It seems that the standard and the HP 440's had a 5-year/50,000 mile warranty but not the 426 Hemi or the '69 440 A12 cars. I know the 1969 A12 3X2 Lift-Off-Hood cars had a limited 12-month or 12,000 miles with a special sticker placed in the owner's manual stating the "Same as the 426 Hemi engine" but did 1970/1971 440+6 engine equipped cars also limit the warranty to 12 month/12,000 miles ?? Would dual quads or 3X2 carburetors really make a reliability issue by 4-years and 38,000 miles......maybe down a drag strip at a quarter mile at a time all day and night long. Just can't see the carbs being a warranty period issue. What am I missing? RPMs and intended racing use. No warranty on clutches either. I know at our shop (Dodge) if they found you were racing ANY engine they would refuse warranty claims. 5-50 was normal driving. My friends 68 GTS 4 speed 340 cam ecentric broke, they refused service, said he was racing it. He got his lawyer cousin to have a talk, they fixed it.
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: cudaman1969]
#3103773
12/19/22 10:45 PM
12/19/22 10:45 PM
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What were the warranty periods and mileage for the 440 engines over the years of fitment? It seems that the standard and the HP 440's had a 5-year/50,000 mile warranty but not the 426 Hemi or the '69 440 A12 cars. I know the 1969 A12 3X2 Lift-Off-Hood cars had a limited 12-month or 12,000 miles with a special sticker placed in the owner's manual stating the "Same as the 426 Hemi engine" but did 1970/1971 440+6 engine equipped cars also limit the warranty to 12 month/12,000 miles ?? Would dual quads or 3X2 carburetors really make a reliability issue by 4-years and 38,000 miles......maybe down a drag strip at a quarter mile at a time all day and night long. Just can't see the carbs being a warranty period issue. What am I missing? RPMs and intended racing use. No warranty on clutches either. I know at our shop (Dodge) if they found you were racing ANY engine they would refuse warranty claims. 5-50 was normal driving. My friends 68 GTS 4 speed 340 cam ecentric broke, they refused service, said he was racing it. He got his lawyer cousin to have a talk, they fixed it. Be a difficult thing to prove if the car was COMPLETELY stock and someone didn't see you at the track blowing up IMO. I street raced and went to several different drag strips back in '69 and at the beginning the my '69 Road Runner was completely stock. Then I put Hooker headers on it and a "cool can" for the fuel line, and a CDI ignition box (Mark 10) on it and that may have given it away. But I and my friends were smart enough to have removed those things before we would have had it towed to the Plymouth dealer if we hoped to get warranty on it. I'm sure others did the same thing including mechanics that worked at dealerships. Most of the dealers were on the side of their customers when it came to warranty if they could get their customers some help, at least in my neighborhood and not just the Mopar dealers. You had a better chance of getting warranty with a 727 automatic than a 4-speed IMO, seems most of the blown engines that I remember was from that MISSED SHIFT from 2nd to 3rd.......
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: A12]
#3103778
12/19/22 11:22 PM
12/19/22 11:22 PM
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You had a better chance of getting warranty with a 727 Heard a story about someone wanting a 396 4 speed Nova, but his hometown dealer had a no 4 speed musclecar ban in place. They considered those to be warranty magnets.
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: 2boltmain]
#3103948
12/20/22 02:13 PM
12/20/22 02:13 PM
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Cab_Burge
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All the in line dual quad engines that Mopar built that I have seen all came with cast iron single plane intakes Dodge, Plymouths De Soto and Chrysler all offered motors with in line dual quad motors, originally with Carter WCFB and later with AFB. All the ones I drove were doggy at light part throttle driving, I had a 1957 Chrysler 300 C car that I swap the inline dual Carter WCB on the cast iron in line 2x4 intake to a single 4 barrel dual plane stock intake and carb off of a 1957 New Yorker and it was way better to drive
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 12/20/22 02:13 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: HotRodDave]
#3103952
12/20/22 02:27 PM
12/20/22 02:27 PM
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The better question is why did they not put the 440 CID short block under the hemi heads??? There wouldn't be any of this stupid debate about 426 hemi vs 440 6bbl, the hemi would have had the TQ like a 440 6 pack PLUS the top end of the hemi. NASCAR had a 427 cubic inch rule. 7.0 liters. That’s why there are so many mid 60’s engines that size. A 440 couldn’t run in NASCAR 406 ford 410 mercury 413 mopar 421 pontiac 425 Buick 426 mopar 427 ford chev The reason for the 440+6 VS the hemi debate is the huge valves and ports on the hemi give away bottom end. So the Sox pack is out front early. The hemi was designed for nascar racing, it’s is a racing engine on the steeet.
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: NANKET]
#3103968
12/20/22 02:55 PM
12/20/22 02:55 PM
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HotRodDave
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The better question is why did they not put the 440 CID short block under the hemi heads??? There wouldn't be any of this stupid debate about 426 hemi vs 440 6bbl, the hemi would have had the TQ like a 440 6 pack PLUS the top end of the hemi. NASCAR had a 427 cubic inch rule. 7.0 liters. That’s why there are so many mid 60’s engines that size. A 440 couldn’t run in NASCAR 406 ford 410 mercury 413 mopar 421 pontiac 425 Buick 426 mopar 427 ford chev The reason for the 440+6 VS the hemi debate is the huge valves and ports on the hemi give away bottom end. So the Sox pack is out front early. The hemi was designed for nascar racing, it’s is a racing engine on the steeet. My 5.7 pulls hard right off idle with heads as big as the 426 hemi... could it be the lack of displacement had more to do with the TQ advantage of the 440 vs 426? Like I said above there is a guaranteed 15+ lb feet of torque just in the displacement alone. The argument goes that the 440 had more TQ (duh, it's bigger) and the 426 had more HP but what if they had equal displacement? 15 lbs tq X 2.45 trans 1st gear X 3.91 rear gear = 144 lbs more tq at the wheels just because of the bigger displacement.
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: HotRodDave]
#3103982
12/20/22 03:41 PM
12/20/22 03:41 PM
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Here's the reason Chrysler gave for the 440 HP and yes warranty, daily drivability, reliability, torque, etc., were the reasons. Where or at what RPM the torque was made went right along with what an engine design engineer once told me: "You don't drive an engine on the horsepower, you drive an engine on the torque". So true, as seen on page 2 with the standard 440 making the same amount of torque of 480 lb/ft at 2800 rpm or at 400 rpm lower than the 440 HP, great for towing or moving a large, heavy vehicle down the road. IMO Torque is KING.
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: A12]
#3104051
12/20/22 07:24 PM
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I can't remember exactly which year GM came out with the 455 C.I. Buick, Oldsmobile and Pontiac motors. I believe 1971 was the first year of the 454 C.I. BB Chevy.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: A12]
#3104089
12/20/22 09:00 PM
12/20/22 09:00 PM
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Here's the reason Chrysler gave for the 440 HP and yes warranty, daily drivability, reliability, torque, etc., were the reasons. Where or at what RPM the torque was made went right along with what an engine design engineer once told me: "You don't drive an engine on the horsepower, you drive an engine on the torque". So true, as seen on page 2 with the standard 440 making the same amount of torque of 480 lb/ft at 2800 rpm or at 400 rpm lower than the 440 HP, great for towing or moving a large, heavy vehicle down the road. IMO Torque is KING. "Iron and Tin alloy" they basically made them out of tin cans!
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: HotRodDave]
#3104126
12/20/22 10:25 PM
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All good posts! That CH28 Edelbrock dual 4 manifold with two 500s sure is a wonderful looking and performing set up though. Cheaper than a six pack with the same great looks IMO.
Keep old mopars alive.
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: 2boltmain]
#3104174
12/21/22 06:53 AM
12/21/22 06:53 AM
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All good posts! That CH28 Edelbrock dual 4 manifold with two 500s sure is a wonderful looking and performing set up though. Cheaper than a six pack with the same great looks IMO. I fairly sure the 440 had a Six Pack setup because the powers that be stated the package was aimed at street guys who considered it the ultimate setup at the time. The 440 might not have been sold with quads as it was felt unnecessary and might have cut into Hemi sales.
"I think its got a hemi"
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: gdonovan]
#3104225
12/21/22 12:10 PM
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In the early 60s the big 3 had 2-4s offered on their ‘top’ engines, Fords, Chevys, Buick, Chrysler. Trying to sell their lower engines in everyday cars and trucks. I imagine the 6-pacs (440 and 340) were made because the Hemi was expensive and not to durable at that time so Chrysler made something affordable and durable, kinda after the fact. All in my day and time and me so poor I couldn’t even pay attention lol
Last edited by cudaman1969; 12/21/22 12:12 PM.
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#3104236
12/21/22 12:58 PM
12/21/22 12:58 PM
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I can't remember exactly which year GM came out with the 455 C.I. Buick, Oldsmobile and Pontiac motors. I believe 1971 was the first year of the 454 C.I. BB Chevy. 1970 was the first year for the 454. The 427 couldn't pass EPA emissions.
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#3104334
12/21/22 08:38 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,562 Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick
Still wishing...
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Still wishing...
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,562
Downtown Roebuck Ont
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I can't remember exactly which year GM came out with the 455 C.I. Buick, Oldsmobile and Pontiac motors. I believe 1971 was the first year of the 454 C.I. BB Chevy. 455 started in 1969 I'm pretty sure Cab. 454 would have started in 70. Kevin
Last edited by Twostick; 12/21/22 08:39 PM.
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: HotRodDave]
#3104356
12/21/22 09:52 PM
12/21/22 09:52 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,562 Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick
Still wishing...
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Still wishing...
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,562
Downtown Roebuck Ont
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The better question is why did they not put the 440 CID short block under the hemi heads??? There wouldn't be any of this stupid debate about 426 hemi vs 440 6bbl, the hemi would have had the TQ like a 440 6 pack PLUS the top end of the hemi. NASCAR had a 427 cubic inch rule. 7.0 liters. That’s why there are so many mid 60’s engines that size. A 440 couldn’t run in NASCAR 406 ford 410 mercury 413 mopar 421 pontiac 425 Buick 426 mopar 427 ford chev The reason for the 440+6 VS the hemi debate is the huge valves and ports on the hemi give away bottom end. So the Sox pack is out front early. The hemi was designed for nascar racing, it’s is a racing engine on the steeet. My 5.7 pulls hard right off idle with heads as big as the 426 hemi... could it be the lack of displacement had more to do with the TQ advantage of the 440 vs 426? Like I said above there is a guaranteed 15+ lb feet of torque just in the displacement alone. The argument goes that the 440 had more TQ (duh, it's bigger) and the 426 had more HP but what if they had equal displacement? 15 lbs tq X 2.45 trans 1st gear X 3.91 rear gear = 144 lbs more tq at the wheels just because of the bigger displacement. I think your 5.7 pulls that off because it doesn't have to deal with a 2.45 first gear and a 3.23 or 2.76 diff and only 3 gears. Hi tech engine management certainly doesn't hurt either but put a 727 and a 2.76 behind it in a 5500 lb Ram pickup and I think the experience will come up somewhat short of sporty. Peak torque on a Gen 3 is 4000 rpm +/-. On a 440 it was 2800. Kevin
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: Twostick]
#3104969
12/23/22 05:52 PM
12/23/22 05:52 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419 Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419
Kalispell Mt.
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The better question is why did they not put the 440 CID short block under the hemi heads??? There wouldn't be any of this stupid debate about 426 hemi vs 440 6bbl, the hemi would have had the TQ like a 440 6 pack PLUS the top end of the hemi. NASCAR had a 427 cubic inch rule. 7.0 liters. That’s why there are so many mid 60’s engines that size. A 440 couldn’t run in NASCAR 406 ford 410 mercury 413 mopar 421 pontiac 425 Buick 426 mopar 427 ford chev The reason for the 440+6 VS the hemi debate is the huge valves and ports on the hemi give away bottom end. So the Sox pack is out front early. The hemi was designed for nascar racing, it’s is a racing engine on the steeet. My 5.7 pulls hard right off idle with heads as big as the 426 hemi... could it be the lack of displacement had more to do with the TQ advantage of the 440 vs 426? Like I said above there is a guaranteed 15+ lb feet of torque just in the displacement alone. The argument goes that the 440 had more TQ (duh, it's bigger) and the 426 had more HP but what if they had equal displacement? 15 lbs tq X 2.45 trans 1st gear X 3.91 rear gear = 144 lbs more tq at the wheels just because of the bigger displacement. I think your 5.7 pulls that off because it doesn't have to deal with a 2.45 first gear and a 3.23 or 2.76 diff and only 3 gears. Hi tech engine management certainly doesn't hurt either but put a 727 and a 2.76 behind it in a 5500 lb Ram pickup and I think the experience will come up somewhat short of sporty. Peak torque on a Gen 3 is 4000 rpm +/-. On a 440 it was 2800. Kevin How many hemis or 6 packs came with a 2.76 gear?
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: A12]
#3105270
12/24/22 04:01 PM
12/24/22 04:01 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,174 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,174
Bend,OR USA
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After model year 1971 what manufactures still offered multi carburetor engines? V.W. did
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: A12]
#3105362
12/25/22 01:57 AM
12/25/22 01:57 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,490 Minnesota
Hemi_Joel
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,490
Minnesota
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I think the reason Mopar didn't offer dual quads on a 440 it's that there was no market for it. They already had their flagship performance motor with the dual quads. Most guys who bought 440's were looking to save money over paying up for a Hemi. Not many would have paid up for the 2x4. All this hogwash about the dual quad Hemi not being a good street motor will never die. I know from thousands of miles, they are the best street motor. Huge torque AND high rpm power. Very smooth, reliable and easy to drive and maintain in stock form.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/boeexFms.jpg[/img]31 Plymouth Coupe, 392 Hemi, T56 magnum RS23J71 RS27J77 RP23J71 RO23J71 WM21J8A I don't regret the things I've done. I only regret the things I didn't do. "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something. ~ Plato"
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#3105422
12/25/22 12:27 PM
12/25/22 12:27 PM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,769 Holland MI Ottawa
2boltmain
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,769
Holland MI Ottawa
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Well Edelbrock sure made a nice setup whenever their CH-28 came out. Rather than copy early Chrysler and Offenhauser with a big open single plane plenum they made a true dual plane good to 6000RPM.
Keep old mopars alive.
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: ZIPPY]
#3105437
12/25/22 01:16 PM
12/25/22 01:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,033 Oregon
AndyF
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,033
Oregon
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Probably the same reason there was no large port version, and no solid lifter version.
Yeah I agree. They didn't do it because they didn't need to and/or they didn't want to. Mopar could've turned the wick way up in the horsepower wars but they didn't. Most likely because that wasn't the business they were in. It would've been very easy for them to put a 4.250 stroke crank in the 440 and make it a 505. They could've added the MW heads and a dual quad intake and buried the competition. Those parts all existed in the early 70's and hot rodders had built similiar combinations so they knew it was possible. They didn't need to do it and nobody really wanted to do it so it didn't happen. I suppose they might have regretted killing the big block since GM was able to keep their big block around in the truck division. Mopar probably could've done a truck version of the big block and kept it around a bit longer. GM is still selling big block crate engines but Mopar exited the business. I just got a new 632 from GM last week. GM is selling these 632 inch big block complete with EFI and coil near plug ignition. Makes 1000 hp on pump gas with a hyd roller cam so it will work great in a street car. Mopar could make something similar if they wanted but obviously they don't since they haven't.
Last edited by AndyF; 12/25/22 01:19 PM.
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: AndyF]
#3105459
12/25/22 02:26 PM
12/25/22 02:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,260 fredericksburg,va
cudaman1969
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,260
fredericksburg,va
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Probably the same reason there was no large port version, and no solid lifter version.
Yeah I agree. They didn't do it because they didn't need to and/or they didn't want to. Mopar could've turned the wick way up in the horsepower wars but they didn't. Most likely because that wasn't the business they were in. It would've been very easy for them to put a 4.250 stroke crank in the 440 and make it a 505. They could've added the MW heads and a dual quad intake and buried the competition. Those parts all existed in the early 70's and hot rodders had built similiar combinations so they knew it was possible. They didn't need to do it and nobody really wanted to do it so it didn't happen. I suppose they might have regretted killing the big block since GM was able to keep their big block around in the truck division. Mopar probably could've done a truck version of the big block and kept it around a bit longer. GM is still selling big block crate engines but Mopar exited the business. I just got a new 632 from GM last week. GM is selling these 632 inch big block complete with EFI and coil near plug ignition. Makes 1000 hp on pump gas with a hyd roller cam so it will work great in a street car. Mopar could make something similar if they wanted but obviously they don't since they haven't. The biggest mistake is Chrysler and the after market STILL use that small bore spacing. IF they can make a Hemi head in standard form they can make one longer, make a longer block, longer crank (Chevy) Bilet cam, now there’s potential for really big cubes
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: cudaman1969]
#3105500
12/25/22 04:46 PM
12/25/22 04:46 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,823 Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,823
Kirkland, Washington
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Probably the same reason there was no large port version, and no solid lifter version.
Yeah I agree. They didn't do it because they didn't need to and/or they didn't want to. Mopar could've turned the wick way up in the horsepower wars but they didn't. Most likely because that wasn't the business they were in. It would've been very easy for them to put a 4.250 stroke crank in the 440 and make it a 505. They could've added the MW heads and a dual quad intake and buried the competition. Those parts all existed in the early 70's and hot rodders had built similiar combinations so they knew it was possible. They didn't need to do it and nobody really wanted to do it so it didn't happen. I suppose they might have regretted killing the big block since GM was able to keep their big block around in the truck division. Mopar probably could've done a truck version of the big block and kept it around a bit longer. GM is still selling big block crate engines but Mopar exited the business. I just got a new 632 from GM last week. GM is selling these 632 inch big block complete with EFI and coil near plug ignition. Makes 1000 hp on pump gas with a hyd roller cam so it will work great in a street car. Mopar could make something similar if they wanted but obviously they don't since they haven't. The biggest mistake is Chrysler and the after market STILL use that small bore spacing. IF they can make a Hemi head in standard form they can make one longer, make a longer block, longer crank (Chevy) Bilet cam, now there’s potential for really big cubes Remember, Japan was invading the market with mpg 4 bangers, gas and insurance were getting expensive, and the government was talking emissions. The market was changing fast.
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: lewtot184]
#3105603
12/26/22 09:14 AM
12/26/22 09:14 AM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT
gdonovan
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847
Oakdale CT
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not sure if it's been mentioned or not but Chrysler did offer an over the counter dual quad set-up for rb engines. it was the 385hp 413 set-up with a cast iron single plane intake and two small afb's. chrysler never had the money to r&d and market a lot of combos for production the way gm and ford did. in the '60's most enthusiast were leaning toward single carb technology that was developing. this was basically born out of nascars ban on multi-carbs, and let's face it; most people can't work on one least wise two or three. i have far more problems with the single four on my stock '69 r/t than the dual quads on my '65 coronet. I think Chrysler just had a ridiculous number of engines as it was and needed another like a hole in the head. OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD for 1970 Slant Six (170, 198, 225) The 170 was available on exports out to 1971 318 340 (different cams for manual and auto? can't recall) 340 6-pack 361 (Industrial out to 1974) 383 2 bbl 383 4bbl 383 HP 413 (Trucks and RV out to 1979) 440 4bbl 440 HP 440 6 pack 426 hemi I'm sure I missed a few variants but that is a lot of different engines to churn out and certify compared to today.
"I think its got a hemi"
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: gdonovan]
#3105622
12/26/22 10:09 AM
12/26/22 10:09 AM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,916 usa
lewtot184
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,916
usa
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not sure if it's been mentioned or not but Chrysler did offer an over the counter dual quad set-up for rb engines. it was the 385hp 413 set-up with a cast iron single plane intake and two small afb's. chrysler never had the money to r&d and market a lot of combos for production the way gm and ford did. in the '60's most enthusiast were leaning toward single carb technology that was developing. this was basically born out of nascars ban on multi-carbs, and let's face it; most people can't work on one least wise two or three. i have far more problems with the single four on my stock '69 r/t than the dual quads on my '65 coronet. I think Chrysler just had a ridiculous number of engines as it was and needed another like a hole in the head. OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD for 1970 Slant Six (170, 198, 225) The 170 was available on exports out to 1971 318 340 (different cams for manual and auto? can't recall) 340 6-pack 361 (Industrial out to 1974) 383 2 bbl 383 4bbl 383 HP 413 (Trucks and RV out to 1979) 440 4bbl 440 HP 440 6 pack 426 hemi I'm sure I missed a few variants but that is a lot of different engines to churn out and certify compared to today. that is a lot to keep up with when you consider chryslers percentage of market share. when it came to performance they didn't r&d, and couldn't, like others. they just put a part number on aftermarket parts.
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: lewtot184]
#3105627
12/26/22 10:40 AM
12/26/22 10:40 AM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT
gdonovan
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847
Oakdale CT
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that is a lot to keep up with when you consider chryslers percentage of market share. when it came to performance they didn't r&d, and couldn't, like others. they just put a part number on aftermarket parts.
And I'm positive I missed a few. I think the 426 Hemi had two cams as well but just can't recall. Accountants hate part numbers, I bet they were positively bezerk back then based on my time working for Mopar in the 80's. Reduction in part numbers to increase the profit margins and save money was a constant mantra.
Last edited by gdonovan; 12/26/22 10:40 AM.
"I think its got a hemi"
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: lewtot184]
#3105633
12/26/22 10:49 AM
12/26/22 10:49 AM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 284 STL ,MO
Handygun
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 284
STL ,MO
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not sure if it's been mentioned or not but Chrysler did offer an over the counter dual quad set-up for rb engines. it was the 385hp 413 set-up with a cast iron single plane intake and two small afb's. chrysler never had the money to r&d and market a lot of combos for production the way gm and ford did. in the '60's most enthusiast were leaning toward single carb technology that was developing. this was basically born out of nascars ban on multi-carbs, and let's face it; most people can't work on one least wise two or three. i have far more problems with the single four on my stock '69 r/t than the dual quads on my '65 coronet. As small was Chrysler is to the other 2 they had a DQ intake for all 3 early Hemi's, the Poly, both low deck and tall deck B, Crossrams long,short and 1 pc and 426H intakes I would think they would have had it figured out as good as anyone and better than most.
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: gdonovan]
#3105921
12/27/22 02:38 PM
12/27/22 02:38 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419 Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419
Kalispell Mt.
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not sure if it's been mentioned or not but Chrysler did offer an over the counter dual quad set-up for rb engines. it was the 385hp 413 set-up with a cast iron single plane intake and two small afb's. chrysler never had the money to r&d and market a lot of combos for production the way gm and ford did. in the '60's most enthusiast were leaning toward single carb technology that was developing. this was basically born out of nascars ban on multi-carbs, and let's face it; most people can't work on one least wise two or three. i have far more problems with the single four on my stock '69 r/t than the dual quads on my '65 coronet. I think Chrysler just had a ridiculous number of engines as it was and needed another like a hole in the head. OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD for 1970 Slant Six (170, 198, 225) The 170 was available on exports out to 1971 318 340 (different cams for manual and auto? can't recall) 340 6-pack 361 (Industrial out to 1974) 383 2 bbl 383 4bbl 383 HP 413 (Trucks and RV out to 1979) 440 4bbl 440 HP 440 6 pack 426 hemi I'm sure I missed a few variants but that is a lot of different engines to churn out and certify compared to today. You think that is bad how about ford? They had twice as many different engines, often 2 or 3 of the same size that were totally different engines with nothing interchangeable between them... talk about a cluster! GM wasn't much better with different engines for buick olds pontiac cadilac chevrolet... all getting their own engines and sharing engines sometimes. Chrysler had like 3.5 engine families in total thru the 60s and 70s
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: HotRodDave]
#3105968
12/27/22 05:19 PM
12/27/22 05:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,566 Motor City
6PKRTSE
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,566
Motor City
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I love multi-carb anything. I have always wanted a 440 dual quad intake. I currently have a sixpack car, a tunnel ram with two 1050's Hemi car, a 383/400 sixpack, a 340 sixpack, two dual four street Hemi intakes and carbs, a cross ram max Wedge and a magnesium cross ram Hemi also.
1963 Belvedere 440 Max Wedge Tribute 1970 Charger R/T S.E. 440 Six Pack 1970 Challenger R/T, 528 Hemi 1970 Charger 500 S.E. 440 4 BBL 1970 Plymouth Road Runner 383 1974 Chrysler New Yorker 440 1996 2500 RAM 488 V-10 4X4 2004 3500 Dually Cummins 4x4 2012 Challenger R/T Classic.
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: AndyF]
#3105971
12/27/22 06:01 PM
12/27/22 06:01 PM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,673 Wichita
GY3
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,673
Wichita
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Probably the same reason there was no large port version, and no solid lifter version.
Mopar could make something similar if they wanted but obviously they don't since they haven't. FCA has no interest in "heritage" engine platforms anymore. When they do have something like an intake for them, all they do is rebrand someone else's product and mark it up 30%. I refuse to put anything with the Mopar Performance or Direct Connection logo on my car!
'63 Dodge 330 11.19 @ 121 mph Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs. 10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: GY3]
#3105974
12/27/22 06:32 PM
12/27/22 06:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,566 Motor City
6PKRTSE
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,566
Motor City
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Probably the same reason there was no large port version, and no solid lifter version.
Mopar could make something similar if they wanted but obviously they don't since they haven't. FCA has no interest in "heritage" engine platforms anymore. When they do have something like an intake for them, all they do is rebrand someone else's product and mark it up 30%. I refuse to put anything with the Mopar Performance or Direct Connection logo on my car! I go even a step further. I peel off any decals, ask a vendor to not supply with logo first if possible. If not , I weld up any logo or machine off any logo on everything I put on my car. Except for tires for safety reasons.
1963 Belvedere 440 Max Wedge Tribute 1970 Charger R/T S.E. 440 Six Pack 1970 Challenger R/T, 528 Hemi 1970 Charger 500 S.E. 440 4 BBL 1970 Plymouth Road Runner 383 1974 Chrysler New Yorker 440 1996 2500 RAM 488 V-10 4X4 2004 3500 Dually Cummins 4x4 2012 Challenger R/T Classic.
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: 6PKRTSE]
#3106111
12/28/22 12:56 PM
12/28/22 12:56 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,916 usa
lewtot184
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,916
usa
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I love multi-carb anything. I have always wanted a 440 dual quad intake. I currently have a sixpack car, a tunnel ram with two 1050's Hemi car, a 383/400 sixpack, a 340 sixpack, two dual four street Hemi intakes and carbs, a cross ram max Wedge and a magnesium cross ram Hemi also. single carbs are great for lawnmowers.
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#3106113
12/28/22 01:07 PM
12/28/22 01:07 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,018 Morningside
AdventurerSport
waaaay out there in left field
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waaaay out there in left field
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,018
Morningside
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Oldsmobile came out with their 455 in 1968 Buick and Pontiac released their 455s in 1970 Chevrolet 454 was 1970, also
JS
76 Dodge Adventurer Sport Power Wagon W100 318, 727, NP203 Fulltime 4x4 Russet Red 06 Jeep Commander Ltd 4x4, 5.7L Hemi, QuadraDrive II 06 Chrysler 300C AWD 5.7L Hemi 10 Mopar 10 Challenger R/T, #483/500, 5.7L HEMI 10 Jeep Grand Cherokee Ltd 4x4 5.7L HEMI 11 Dodge Ram 1500 LoneStar Quad Cab, 5.7L HEMI, Fulltime 4x4, Deep Cherry Red 16 Jeep Cherokee Limited 3.2L Pentastar V6, 9 Speed Torqueflite, 4x4, Black
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: AdventurerSport]
#3106122
12/28/22 02:14 PM
12/28/22 02:14 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT
gdonovan
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847
Oakdale CT
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Oldsmobile came out with their 455 in 1968 Buick and Pontiac released their 455s in 1970 Chevrolet 454 was 1970, also
JS Just a reminder there was prohibitions on certain GM products over 400 CID for a few years. When GM saw the EPA writing on the wall they dropped it around 1970. They got around it for a bit by having third parties install 400+ CID engines after the sale for a few years before that, Yenko Chevrolet maybe?
"I think its got a hemi"
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: A12]
#3106139
12/28/22 03:23 PM
12/28/22 03:23 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,916 usa
lewtot184
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,916
usa
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Are there multi throttle body fuel injected engines? How about carb body type EFI on multi carb intake manifolds.......just asking for a friend Not talking like this i used to see a guy a the local cruise-in who had a set of hilborns on his FE427 '61 starliner. hilborn "electrified" them for him and he told me it cost $1200 a hole, . anyhow, he liked it and said it worked great. it was a beautiful car.
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: 2boltmain]
#3108752
01/05/23 01:15 AM
01/05/23 01:15 AM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,479 Canada
CrAzYMoPaRGuY
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,479
Canada
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Well Edelbrock sure made a nice setup whenever their CH-28 came out. Rather than copy early Chrysler and Offenhauser with a big open single plane plenum they made a true dual plane good to 6000RPM. I love the CH28, absolutely awesome IMO
CrAzYMoPaRGuY
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: AndyF]
#3108950
01/05/23 02:01 PM
01/05/23 02:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,844 S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,844
S.E. Michigan
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Probably the same reason there was no large port version, and no solid lifter version.
Yeah I agree. They didn't do it because they didn't need to and/or they didn't want to. Mopar could've turned the wick way up in the horsepower wars but they didn't. Most likely because that wasn't the business they were in. It would've been very easy for them to put a 4.250 stroke crank in the 440 and make it a 505. They could've added the MW heads and a dual quad intake and buried the competition. Those parts all existed in the early 70's and hot rodders had built similiar combinations so they knew it was possible. They didn't need to do it and nobody really wanted to do it so it didn't happen. I suppose they might have regretted killing the big block since GM was able to keep their big block around in the truck division. Mopar probably could've done a truck version of the big block and kept it around a bit longer. GM is still selling big block crate engines but Mopar exited the business. I just got a new 632 from GM last week. GM is selling these 632 inch big block complete with EFI and coil near plug ignition. Makes 1000 hp on pump gas with a hyd roller cam so it will work great in a street car. Mopar could make something similar if they wanted but obviously they don't since they haven't. The thread starts "why didn't mopar offer"................but does the original poster mean Mopar service parts, or Chrysler corporate, know or care about the difference? If it really means corporate/selling vehicles and not parts, a person has to ask...... What was the original purpose of the 440? A race engine? No. To sell as an over the counter high performance item? No...such ideas were in their infancy when the 440 was introduced The first couple years of use showed the real purpose. To make huge heavy full size cars perform reasonably well, and to make the musclecar market vehicles respectable. The average musclecar customer of the time wanted to buy something with a race car appearance, and drive it in 27 degree temperatures in a snowstorm, and expected it to perform perfectly with minimum maintenance. We know that is not happening with a race engine with mid 60s fuel/air/spark technology, cold intake manifolds and so on. So, they got a barely warmed up version that felt fast, could do awesome burnouts but really ran 14s and 15s and could be driven any day, anytime, in any weather. In the time of the 440, the 426 Hemi was the corporate race engine and was bestowed with the racy stuff. In modern times we assume the 440 platform to be all things to all people….it does an admirable job but wasn’t really intended for that.
Rich H.
Esse Quam Videri
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: A12]
#3108959
01/05/23 02:16 PM
01/05/23 02:16 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,174 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,174
PA.
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After model year 1971 what manufactures still offered multi carburetor engines? Probably because a single four barrel in the right hands is usually quicker. Especially on a street build.
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#3109207
01/05/23 10:26 PM
01/05/23 10:26 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,916 usa
lewtot184
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,916
usa
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After model year 1971 what manufactures still offered multi carburetor engines? Probably because a single four barrel in the right hands is usually quicker. Especially on a street build. single 4 better on a street build? i have doubts. single 4 better at the track; maybe. modern manifold technology favors the single carb for peak power, but not a broad power band. has any single 4 race set-up made more power than a 2x4 tunnel ram? i think there are too many variables. people in general just embrace single carb stuff because the culture has told them to. i still think some of this boils down to most folks can't tune 1 so why do they want 2 or 3. i think on the street multi carb is far more versatile than any single 4 could ever be.
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: lewtot184]
#3109306
01/06/23 10:51 AM
01/06/23 10:51 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,078 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,078
Benton, IL.
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Probably because a single four barrel in the right hands is usually quicker. Especially on a street build. single 4 better on a street build? i have doubts. single 4 better at the track; maybe. modern manifold technology favors the single carb for peak power, but not a broad power band. has any single 4 race set-up made more power than a 2x4 tunnel ram? i think there are too many variables. people in general just embrace single carb stuff because the culture has told them to. i still think some of this boils down to most folks can't tune 1 so why do they want 2 or 3. i think on the street multi carb is far more versatile than any single 4 could ever be. I think that is the key. Especially when talking about primarily street driven combos and the 'average' car guy. Whether we're talking way back then or now, frankly very few guys can do much (if any) tuning on a carb. More carbs means more complexity and intimidates most guys. And that most certainly plays a role in the rush to the antiquated throttle body EFI kits today. 'Self tuning' is a huge draw when you want to 'bolt it on and go'. And because of the intimidation factor, the demand for carbs, manifolds and collateral pieces for multi combos is less. So, there are more parts for the single set-ups. As to "on the street multi carb is far more versatile than any single 4 could ever be", that is simply not true for the 'average' car guy if for no other reason than the inability to tune. And I haven't seen a lot of testing each way to prove that conclusively for the guys that can tune them. Certainly, there are combos that would favor one or the other individually, but saying that multiple carbs are always or even usually superior, faster, or more versatile is way oversimplifying the subject, at least in my opinion. And correct me if I'm wrong but outside of the Hemi, wasn't a big part of the multiple carb factory offerings the fact that there weren't any single carbs big enough? That and the marketing side of it? Not so much for the superiority of multis over singles?
Master, again and still
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: DaveRS23]
#3109393
01/06/23 01:48 PM
01/06/23 01:48 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,916 usa
lewtot184
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,916
usa
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Probably because a single four barrel in the right hands is usually quicker. Especially on a street build. single 4 better on a street build? i have doubts. single 4 better at the track; maybe. modern manifold technology favors the single carb for peak power, but not a broad power band. has any single 4 race set-up made more power than a 2x4 tunnel ram? i think there are too many variables. people in general just embrace single carb stuff because the culture has told them to. i still think some of this boils down to most folks can't tune 1 so why do they want 2 or 3. i think on the street multi carb is far more versatile than any single 4 could ever be. I think that is the key. Especially when talking about primarily street driven combos and the 'average' car guy. Whether we're talking way back then or now, frankly very few guys can do much (if any) tuning on a carb. More carbs means more complexity and intimidates most guys. And that most certainly plays a role in the rush to the antiquated throttle body EFI kits today. 'Self tuning' is a huge draw when you want to 'bolt it on and go'. And because of the intimidation factor, the demand for carbs, manifolds and collateral pieces for multi combos is less. So, there are more parts for the single set-ups. As to "on the street multi carb is far more versatile than any single 4 could ever be", that is simply not true for the 'average' car guy if for no other reason than the inability to tune. And I haven't seen a lot of testing each way to prove that conclusively for the guys that can tune them. Certainly, there are combos that would favor one or the other individually, but saying that multiple carbs are always or even usually superior, faster, or more versatile is way oversimplifying the subject, at least in my opinion. And correct me if I'm wrong but outside of the Hemi, wasn't a big part of the multiple carb factory offerings the fact that there weren't any single carbs big enough? That and the marketing side of it? Not so much for the superiority of multis over singles? i believe the single most driver for single carb technology was NASCAR. by the early '60's they outlawed multi-carb. this brought about the large holley carbs like 3bbl and dominator plus manifold technology upgrades. for street guys this was really driven home by 1965 375hp 396 chevy (396 cuin's was a nascar thing). there were large afb's and even a 3bbl afb but they simply had some air flow deficiencies compared to an 850 or 950 holley. another driver was holley developing the center pivot float bowl that handled G forces better than carters. i'm pretty sure all this major developement with holley was funded by ford. for most people it was a simpler path to performance. there were very few people in the '60's who were carb smart especially multi-carb; i know i was there. as far as my belief the multi carb thing can be and is in my builds more versatile is that i can run on small primaries for better fuel mix and still have larger venturi and throttle bore area for power. i think some of this is a perpetual discussion that most people have picked sides long ago. the "common culture" in this matter baffles me.
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: lewtot184]
#3109447
01/06/23 04:12 PM
01/06/23 04:12 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT
gdonovan
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847
Oakdale CT
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i think some of this is a perpetual discussion that most people have picked sides long ago. the "common culture" in this matter baffles me. I'm one of those people that goes either way on the subject having spent many hours tuning carbs with a portable af gauge and vacuum meter. Max HP? Tunnel Ram with a pair of fuel mixers can't be beat and if you know how to tune extremely streetable. Same car I ran very successfully with a single tricked out Thermoquad with a TM7 intake. The average person hasn't a clue how to tune a carb and the situation has only gotten worse.
"I think its got a hemi"
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: lewtot184]
#3109533
01/06/23 08:18 PM
01/06/23 08:18 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,078 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,078
Benton, IL.
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i believe the single most driver for single carb technology was NASCAR. by the early '60's they outlawed multi-carb. this brought about the large holley carbs like 3bbl and dominator plus manifold technology upgrades. for street guys this was really driven home by 1965 375hp 396 chevy (396 cuin's was a nascar thing). there were large afb's and even a 3bbl afb but they simply had some air flow deficiencies compared to an 850 or 950 holley. another driver was holley developing the center pivot float bowl that handled G forces better than carters. i'm pretty sure all this major developement with holley was funded by ford. Good points.for most people it was a simpler path to performance. there were very few people in the '60's who were carb smart especially multi-carb; i know i was there. We certainly agree on that point. And I'll add, it hasn't gotten much better today. as far as my belief the multi carb thing can be and is in my builds more versatile is that i can run on small primaries for better fuel mix and still have larger venturi and throttle bore area for power. i think some of this is a perpetual discussion that most people have picked sides long ago. the "common culture" in this matter baffles me. Isn't this a little bit like the auto vs stick discussions? The bottom line is not necessarily what is technically the best given that there are so many other factors affecting the outcome. Maybe not for you, but certainly for most 'average' car guys. And the vast majority of us have to make some amount of compromises on this. Otherwise, we would sure see a ton more tunnel rams sticking out of hoods. And I am not arguing that singles are superior to multiples, only that there are many, many factors that come into play in each situation. Some of which end up having nothing to do with creating the perfect induction system.
Master, again and still
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: 2boltmain]
#3109580
01/06/23 10:04 PM
01/06/23 10:04 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,507 N.E. OHIO, USA
A12
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,507
N.E. OHIO, USA
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Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads? I talked to my friend and Dodge engineer ('62-05) who was in charge of Dodge engine development during the time about why no '72 3x2 when the brochures and a few examples somehow were made and at the last minute the 3x2 440 was dropped. He said because of the 2-year phase-in for the evaporative emission standard or EVAP ( 2-year phase-in from '70 had to be completed by model year '72) could not get done because Holley would not modify the front and rear 2-bbl carbs with the necessary captured float bowl venting. He said they did the in-house modifications tested them and then submitted them to Holley and Holley turned them down. With that and all of the other models that had to come into EVAP compliance during the two years since the '70 regulation (remember the '70 models with the vacuum butterflies on the air cleaner snorkels and the vacuum hood scoops, the charcoal canisters, gas tank vent bottles, etc. yep EVAP) Holley had no time to mess with multi carb Chrysler engines. So if you asked me why no 440 dual quad in production after only three years of a 440 3x2 I'd have to say the same reason for no 72 3x2 or any multi carb engines from that '72 date forward. The SIX PACKs enjoyed some healthy sales from '69-1/2 to '71 and spending more time and money to make a 2x4 anything for one or at best two years made no sense at all to the bean counters, marketing and the engineers. EVAP and all of the other EPA/CARB emission standards and then add in the gas crunch just try and sell the idea of a 2x4 (8-bbl) massive 440 cubic inch V8 for an on-highway vehicle (car) to the powers to be. Just look at all of the crap, development and money that had to go with and comply with EVAP and all of the other emissions regulations at that time and how it affected the cost of the car. As stated, "it's all about the MONEY $$$$$$".
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Re: Why didnt Mopar offer the 440 with dual quads?
[Re: Wagonmaster]
#3109988
01/08/23 09:28 AM
01/08/23 09:28 AM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,769 Holland MI Ottawa
2boltmain
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,769
Holland MI Ottawa
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I can see where an OEM would prefer to keep the induction system as simple as possible (AKA single carb) for a car that will be a passenger car. The dual inline 4 bbl carbs are just so cool and scream Hot Rodding though. Its interesting that Ford was the first to use the 3 Holley 2 bbl carbs on the 406- then a variation of those carbs used by Chevy on their 427 and finally Mopar on their 1969 440 B bodies. In the 1970s movie Hot Rod the main character is speaking to a babe. He says something like: " If you blow up it up rebuild it with dual quads. If you blow it up again put a blower on it." Such great advice!
Keep old mopars alive.
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