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Re: No Brakes.....Crash! [Re: 68HemiB] #3062134
07/24/22 03:29 PM
07/24/22 03:29 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline
Striving for excellence
Kern Dog  Offline
Striving for excellence

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Originally Posted by 68HemiB
To me, it is understandable that most laypersons don't understand the physics of friction brakes.
What is surprising is that so many "car guys" don't either - like the two seen in this car.

Brakes don't stop a car by "grabbing the rotor/drum to slow it down".


Uhhh, yeah, I think that is the simplest way to explain it. You can use more complicated words to describe the action of "braking" like.....The clamping force of the caliper or expanding of the drum shoes create friction which results in heat which is dissipated, etc.

A car can be first started and backed out of the driveway and the brakes will stop the car even though almost no heat has been generated or dissipated yet. The brakes did stop the car by creating a friction between the brake pads/shoes and rotor/drum.
Sometimes people are trained to understand matters in a way that falls far outside the way that is simple to explain to others.
An A/C guy I know gets all pissy when someone says that air conditioning cools the air. He is always quick to state that NO, the air conditioning removes the heat from the air, making it cooler.
So what...? The result is the same.

Re: No Brakes.....Crash! [Re: Kern Dog] #3062143
07/24/22 03:43 PM
07/24/22 03:43 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,504
N.E. OHIO, USA
A12 Offline
Too Many Posts
A12  Offline
Too Many Posts

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,504
N.E. OHIO, USA
And a vacuum is a push, not a pull............................................. wink

Re: No Brakes.....Crash! [Re: Kern Dog] #3062269
07/25/22 12:53 AM
07/25/22 12:53 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,016
Oregon
A
AndyF Offline
I Win
AndyF  Offline
I Win
A

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,016
Oregon
Originally Posted by Kern Dog
Originally Posted by 68HemiB
To me, it is understandable that most laypersons don't understand the physics of friction brakes.
What is surprising is that so many "car guys" don't either - like the two seen in this car.

Brakes don't stop a car by "grabbing the rotor/drum to slow it down".


Uhhh, yeah, I think that is the simplest way to explain it. You can use more complicated words to describe the action of "braking" like.....The clamping force of the caliper or expanding of the drum shoes create friction which results in heat which is dissipated, etc.

A car can be first started and backed out of the driveway and the brakes will stop the car even though almost no heat has been generated or dissipated yet. The brakes did stop the car by creating a friction between the brake pads/shoes and rotor/drum.
Sometimes people are trained to understand matters in a way that falls far outside the way that is simple to explain to others.
An A/C guy I know gets all pissy when someone says that air conditioning cools the air. He is always quick to state that NO, the air conditioning removes the heat from the air, making it cooler.
So what...? The result is the same.


Kern Dog wins the round using his go to move; Common Sense.

Re: No Brakes.....Crash! [Re: moparx] #3062276
07/25/22 02:19 AM
07/25/22 02:19 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,504
N.E. OHIO, USA
A12 Offline
Too Many Posts
A12  Offline
Too Many Posts

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,504
N.E. OHIO, USA
Originally Posted by moparx
that pic is scary indeed ! eek
that reminds me of when i used to watch nascar on tv during a night high bank short track race. the camera would focus on the wheels in the turns, glowing red. they seemed to cool off on the short straight stretch, then glow red again in the turn.
i wonder what brake fluid those guys used ?
beer


They use a very high temp (boiling point) brake fluid and heat insulators between the caliper pistons and the brake pads. We used phenolic caliper pistons or "buttons" in the center of the aluminum caliper pistons as stand offs to keep the heat from migrating into the pistons and boiling the brake fluid in the caliper. The brake would still work on the bike in the photos IF I would still have brake pedal pressure but once the fluid turns to a gas you can no longer force or push the brake pads against the disc. Carbon pads and discs will still stop even glowing hot as long as you have fluid pressure to push them against a friction surface (disc). 68HemiB's post is a perfect summary of how brakes work up But IMO what happened to the car we're talking about the driver riding or using the brakes to control a sticking throttle he boiled the brake fluid and lost all pedal pressure and at that point you are not going to make any friction and stop or slow down at all. Other factors are the quality and age of the brake fluid in the car and if it has been overheated before and if it has then the threshold for failure gets even lower. Bottom line he cooked the brake fluid and lost pedal pressure. "Energy can neither be created or destroyed" And one cannot say that NO heat or thermal energy is generated in a friction brake system even backing out of the driveway, it has to even if it's one degree that's how it works. Kinetic to Thermal. Thought about making water cooled calipers to keep from boiling the brake fluid but I bet someone already thought of that. wink I know we make cooling fins for them.

Mike

(note the brake pads are glowing hot too and the heat insulator between the brake pad and caliper in not but it still boiled the brake fluid in this case.)


DSC09116.JPGDSC09114.JPG
Re: No Brakes.....Crash! [Re: A12] #3062394
07/25/22 12:58 PM
07/25/22 12:58 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,380
north of coder
moparx Offline
"Butt Crack Bob"
moparx  Offline
"Butt Crack Bob"

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,380
north of coder
pretty great reply Mike. up
those two other pictures were interesting as well.
as to the doofus this is about, all i can say is : "high performance car, low performance driver"..............[insert your preferred descriptive words here]
if it were me, and the problem were known, i would not drive the car until it was fixed.
reminds me of a guy that stopped over one day. he has a "starskey and hutch" torino.
he said the steering was acting funny, so he took it out to the interstate to see if it still happened at high speed.
one look under the hood, and i found the rag joint from the column to the box had just a TINY piece of rubber holding it together ! eek
after seeing that, i told him he was an a$$ for driving his car that way !
luckily, the local parts place had a joint in stock, and he didn't leave until i fixed it for him. this isn't the first time this guy pulled stupid stunts.
for some reason, he thinks you need 17 floor mats to "protect" the carpet, then says "occasionally" he has to rearrange them so the gas pedal doesn't stick............
good grief..........
beer

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