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Re: Concrete Driveway problem / question [Re: srt] #3053290
06/25/22 02:25 PM
06/25/22 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by srt
Honestly I think the drive looks pretty good. Transverse e.j.'s would have prevented any side to side movement, imho.
This is going to be long again. Fixing these types of things is difficult to put into words, but fairly easy once the basic concepts are understood.
The piers will likely do little to resist over time. The forces moving the slab sideways will almost certainly push the pier over, or plow it through the soil. If a long deep curb had been put in place of the piers, ir would likely still move. It almost certainly is the expansion contraction.
I sketched up a little drawing in iso view. Think of the cleat as a transverse curb, or anchor pushing back against the slab forced as the concrete expands in the summer heat.
Your pics include on of the pier where a sealed crack in the drive slab adjacent. That is a good indication the slab is moving toward the pier. and the crack appears as that edge stretches outward.
In the upper left is a representation of the rebar layout.
If mine I'd put transverse bars at 6" apart stacked vertically and about 8' apart vertically.
In the lower right is a cross section of a slab with correctly placed sealant. The top is the sealant in a hot day in the summer, the bottom on a cold day in the winter.
Ideally the sealant hould be placed in the mid temperature range.
It appears the joint was routed before the sealant was placed? Just a guess. It's very good to rout (with a special router) any cracks to be sealed. 1, it removes old sealant, 2, it cleans dirt and other material from the surfaces, and it eats and drys the concrete. Alternative methods can work carefully scraping to the depth to be sealed, and using a wire brush on a gas powered lawn edger, etc.
If the wrong sealant is used it won't properly stretch and compress and can shear off the concrete (appears yours did this) and if too stable it won't compress at all and may continue "pushing" the slab outward as the temp cycles. It would the ultimate if you could find a contractor that can do "rubberized hot pour" These guys know how to properly prep and place and are in and out. Gheck with the local road maintenance dept, or airport, When they have a contract going the workers love pick up work for beer money. You may want to look up cold pour also.
If it were my driveway I'd first remove the de-laminating sealant and re seal with a quality product made for the purpose (of expansion and contraction). I'd then create a few new transverse expansion joints where you are seeing the most movement. Say, 3 cuts spaced 25' apart. A wheeled concrete "wet saw" can be used to cut across the slab and put e.j. sealant in there. depending on the width of cut (I'd shoot for 1/2") it will take a couple accurately cut passes, or, have a contractor rout any single blade width cuts. Contractor rental yards will have these various tools ar pretty reasonable rate, and contractors should have them already. The transverse cleats could be placed where the e'j locations are if it's found they are required later.
Keeping the cracks sealed as you are is a great plan. Water intrusion will wash out the fines of the base sand/gravel and freeze thaw will accelerate concrete deterioation. Keep water draining away from the sides of the drive by grading to slope away.
Don't fret about all this info as I really don't think the solution is going to be big budget.


thank you again for taking the time for this. I had never thought about expansion in the heat and contraction in the cold. But will say I have noted the stretch and squeezing of the sealant at various times but never gave much thought to it. The cleaning is also something that none of them have done to my knowledge but does make perfect sense.

I believe I am getting a grasp of your recommendations which is to cut more 1/2" joints across the drive where the movement is most noticeable and reseal. This I'm guessing will reduce both the expansion & contraction as the slabs are now smaller, Correct?
The two I don't grasp is "The transverse cleats could be placed where the e'j locations are

Re: Concrete Driveway problem / question [Re: 360view] #3053298
06/25/22 03:05 PM
06/25/22 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by 360view
The pictures help a lot.

Was the original driveway a steady grade when the concrete was poured,
and has the “dip” slowly appeared over time? the dip has always been there

Just after the original concrete pour,
was the center high
and edges low?
( was there a “crown” ) A light crown so the water would got to the edges

I assume there is no wire mush in the concrete? CORRECT, bad allowance on my part, as he asked if i wanted wire fence, reboar or fiberglass reinforced. I left the choice up to him as I figured he SHOULD know best tsk spank

The T junction picture brings up the issue of
periodic winter rainfall causing water inundation of that lower sect,
particularly the far side of the lower section opposite the T. The area atthe junction and below ahs bee pretty stable The section that extends to the building does have some drainage issues that do need to be addressed mainly near the front of the building.

Freeze/Thaw caused
contraction/expansion
would seem the root cause
made worse by saturated subsoil
that freezes unevenly
creating left or right transverse forces.

Cut more expansion joints,
clean out existing joints,
re-cauk.

The uphill side of the T-junction needs a drain that passes under (or through) the pavement of the side driveway. that area is actually sloped up and towards the front of the bldg. See the preceding comment

A really tricky contractor
would lay a rubber bladder filled with water along side a shifted concrete section
anchor the bladder rigidly with stakes on one side
and let an overnight winter freeze
push the concrete slab back to its original alignment.

The pressures ice can create are one of Nature’s true wonders.


Both of you have been awesome for educating me a bit and I know have a bit more knowledge to put the screws to the contractors if needed. As mentioned in the response to SRT I now know the previous contractor's did not prep or fill the joints properly to allow the proper amount of sealant. Wonder why it's failing rolleyesmad flame
having spent 20+ years of my life in engineering I get frustrated sometimes when I don't understand why something is happening or worse yet why or how it works. I'm not an authority at this pint but have a lot more knowledge than I did several days ago bow beer
Thank you both again and I will keep you posted

Re: Concrete Driveway problem / question [Re: TJP] #3053304
06/25/22 04:01 PM
06/25/22 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by TJP


I believe I am getting a grasp of your recommendations which is to cut more 1/2" joints across the drive where the movement is most noticeable and reseal. This I'm guessing will reduce both the expansion & contraction as the slabs are now smaller, Correct?
The two I don't grasp is "The transverse cleats could be placed where the e'j locations are




Yes, more transverse joints with sealant.
Regarding the cleats, that would be the transverse "curbs" if you will.
Do the transverse cuts and seal first (make sure cuts go completely through the slab and all loose material removed - compressed air works good), install foam and seal it up.
If months or years later you see the slab continue to walk the transverse cleats (reinforced concrete concrete curbs) can be installed using the previously cut exp joint as one side of the 8" to 12" wide trench.
Further up described as at least as wide as the drive, and 24" to 30" deep. The upper left grid like sketch is looking at the face of the cleat. All it's purpose is to keep the slab from continuing a down hill walk.
Think of expansion and contraction of the drive slab as a caterpillar going down-hill. Each summer it attempts to hump up, and in the winter it pulls it self down hill.The cleat is just there to keep it pushing against 20, or 25 square feet of dirt resisting it. It's easy to push over a fence post sunk 4" or 6" yet if that post is 24,'" or 30" deep it will be very difficult. Think of it as a bulldozer skimming off the top soil, vs making a big deep cut.
I can imagine if the cleats were installed one would notice the e.j. on the up hill side be narrower, and downhill wider after a few seasonal cycles.
Additionally, this is getting into the real nuts and bolts. Every time a car goes up hill the tires push the slab downhill, and conversely going down hill braking has the same effect. A famous physicist once said for every action there is .....

Re: Concrete Driveway problem / question [Re: srt] #3053329
06/25/22 06:01 PM
06/25/22 06:01 PM
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In our youth
“cleats” might have been the round “grabbers” on the soles of football or soccer shoes.

the meaning of “cleat” here
is like the downward crossways bars on bulldozer tracks

these cleats “grab down into soil” and resist slippage
of both bulldozer tracks
and in the future your “driveway” which is just a wide concrete “trackway” that never is supposed to slip or move.

e’j
or e.j.
is short for “expansion joint”
- the narrow slots running left to right in the driveway
made either by the original wood forms for concrete sections,
or sawed cuts
that are filled with caulking over foam,
which exclude unwanted ice,
or block toothpaste like mud flows from underneath.

4B66B36D-59DF-4B52-A18B-23CE46A52373.jpeg
Re: Concrete Driveway problem / question [Re: 360view] #3053357
06/25/22 08:27 PM
06/25/22 08:27 PM
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Thank you good sir!
I could not come up with a better word for "grousers" that might be mistaken for a growler.
This from wiki:

Grousers function by trapping soil against the contact area of the track (in this case the slab). It is the shearing of the soil against itself that generates tractive force. The gross tractive effort, or soil thrust, of a vehicle (or sliding slab) may be calculated.

There are some alternatives that could be incorporated for ultimate stability in this driveway situation.
I believe the slab was not reinforced, thus I did not include doweling the slab into the wall with sliding sleeves, nor cutting the slab at a slight angle so that when it expands it is not forced up and over the cleat,, rather it is forced downward (and the soil would resist the slab from sinking) much like a dovetail.

Re-thinking the design (before construction).
1 - soil analysis
2 - design drive with some amount of "slight curves" and expansion joints at beginning and end of each curve, or
3 - design straight drive where it is divided into several 50' segments. Each segment would be a flat slab, with a "cleat, grabber or grouser" at the upper end of each slab.
Each upper slab could be doweled with sliding sleeves at each edge. The Cleats would need to have reinforcing steel bent like "L" shape the long segment going into the slab and the short down into the "cleat". the upper slab would include expansion joint material between that slab and cleat below.


Lastly think of a bridge abutment, or even a joist hangar and how it incorporates short curbs to keep the bridge deck in alignment or joist properly located.
The op drive is unconstrained and is pretty much floating around being pushed by thermal and loads. The wearing surface looks great; it's not breaking up, so feel the materials used are adequate.
This is an interesting situation and I hope to hear updates.

Do the proper expansion joints and I think that drive will out last us all. Cleat-less.

Re: Concrete Driveway problem / question [Re: 360view] #3053411
06/26/22 06:53 AM
06/26/22 06:53 AM
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The least amount of concrete would have been poured if the driveway slabs were flat bottomed and a consistent thickness.
We must assume this as “the worse case” since the contractor would make a higher profit.

But a knowledgeable professional would have made both lengthwise and transverse “ditches” in the subsoil before the concrete was poured to create concrete “cleats” meant to help the slab resist sideways and downhill drift. Since most cracks occur near edges it is good practice to make the concrete thicker at edges, and especially at corners. On automobile driveways it is good practice to make the concrete thicker underneath where the tires will roll.

Combine these two “practical tips” and the unseen bottom of the concrete will not be “pool table flat” but rather “lock and key” hugging the subsoil.

Ultrasonic thickness testers could be used to see if this varying concrete thickness exists. Ultrasonic testers are way cheaper today than they were in the 1980s.
A cheap IR Temperature gun could also be aimed at the driveway on either a very hot or cold day. On a hot day the thicker concrete might read a bit cooler than nearby thinner. After a cool night it might read warmer.

If Superman is flying overhead just put a Lois Lane look-a-like in a skimpy dress to wave him down for a quick X-Ray vision.

Re: Concrete Driveway problem / question [Re: 360view] #3053455
06/26/22 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by 360view
The least amount of concrete would have been poured if the driveway slabs were flat bottomed and a consistent thickness.
We must assume this as “the worse case” since the contractor would make a higher profit.

But a knowledgeable professional would have made both lengthwise and transverse “ditches” in the subsoil before the concrete was poured to create concrete “cleats” meant to help the slab resist sideways and downhill drift. Since most cracks occur near edges it is good practice to make the concrete thicker at edges, and especially at corners. On automobile driveways it is good practice to make the concrete thicker underneath where the tires will roll.

Combine these two “practical tips” and the unseen bottom of the concrete will not be “pool table flat” but rather “lock and key” hugging the subsoil.

Ultrasonic thickness testers could be used to see if this varying concrete thickness exists. Ultrasonic testers are way cheaper today than they were in the 1980s.
A cheap IR Temperature gun could also be aimed at the driveway on either a very hot or cold day. On a hot day the thicker concrete might read a bit cooler than nearby thinner. After a cool night it might read warmer.

If Superman is flying overhead just put a Lois Lane look-a-like in a skimpy dress to wave him down for a quick X-Ray vision.



Any sub slab work is really going to be too costly and not knowing how thick is not paramount to know, only because the slab looks pretty good and not breaking into small pieces. I thought about different means to core through the slab and pin it to sub soils, etc, but again not knowing the soil types it could be a big waste of $. Easiest is to drill with a small diameter masonry bit until it breaks through and measure depth with a small dowel. Seal with caulk.

I'm with you on the table flat sand or compacted rock bedding. Flat will not provide enough shear to keep the ice (slab) from sliding off the table. the transverse cleats are likely the most economical at this point for o.p.

Brain storming, in case anyone plans construction.
1 - A series of 4" diameter holes could be drilled 24 to 30" deep and filled with concrete and a single #4 or 5 bar that is bent over and tied into the slab reinforcement. One would be effectively building a pier rather than floating docks.
2 - Condtruct 6" wide x 16" deep concrete curbs each side the length of drive with steel at least top and bottom with a few verticals and also e.j.'s every 50 feet or so. The top of curb would be flush with the top of drive slab unless water was to be ducted. After set, a 1/4" foam type e.j. on the face of each curb and pour the slab in 50' segments with e.j. staggered to align mid point between the curb e.l.'s.

Re: Concrete Driveway problem / question [Re: srt] #3053465
06/26/22 11:44 AM
06/26/22 11:44 AM
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Where Tim is is the loess hills formation, basically blown in silica, mica, silt, and vegetation, right next to a major river and floodplain where the heaviest formations would be. Add in the fact it is on a severe grade I can't believe it stayed as nice as it has. Looking at the pics I say the fiberglass did its job...very few cracks other than the control joints. Concrete around here with mesh always seems to crack and show the mesh lines, the control joint down the middle might be a good thing, mine was poured in 1980, 12ft wide 144 ft long, with mesh, and it cracked right down the middle just like the contractor said it would after the first 20 below weather we had. So cut or not you would have a crack there, just my opinion but I think your contractor did a good job given the soil there, maybe some rebar would have helped, but I bet you would have even more cracks. When they built the interstate near you in the 70s they dug down to light brown dirt and pulled a the dark soil out and filled it in. Remember how the hills were dug out around you years ago, a lot of that was from the interstate construction to get better soil. If that $4500 bid includes digging the old caulk out, grinding the edges, new caulk, and a warranty jump on it. We both know no way it all lasts 8 years.

Re: Concrete Driveway problem / question [Re: 4406bbl] #3053493
06/26/22 12:38 PM
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A big thanks to All as I have much more knowledge than I did several days ago. I'm going to see what the second "problem solver" comes up with and what their bid is.
To clarify, it was poured 6 inches thick and that was15 or so years ago.
The driveway to my observations has not moved a bit up or down hill. Only the center cut has opened mainly mid way up between the "wing' and top. The top section hasn't moved at all or very little either directon. The lower section below the "wing" has just recently moved a small amount in the last few years (again the center cut only).
You have all made me feel a bit better about the original contractor whom I've questioned in my mind all this time. He was selected as he was a friend of a neighbor that became like a surrogate father to me after moving back here. The neighbor who was in construction all his life, unfortunately passed away several years back. I later found out that the contractor that did the driveway mainline business was pouring foundations and walls for new homes whistling That just might explain some of this rolleyes
Thanks again to all and i'll report back in ~ 5/6 days. beer

Re: Concrete Driveway problem / question [Re: TJP] #3053502
06/26/22 01:11 PM
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If the ground under that driveway is loess
then it is AMAZING that you have had so little trouble.

Let’s hydraulic hammer it all to pieces
take pictures
and publish an article in Engineering Monthly magazine
titled “Minimal Sift Pavement Design Survives a Decade”

wink

Re: Concrete Driveway problem / question [Re: 360view] #3053675
06/26/22 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by 360view
If the ground under that driveway is loess
then it is AMAZING that you have had so little trouble.

Let’s hydraulic hammer it all to pieces
take pictures
and publish an article in Engineering Monthly magazine
titled “Minimal Sift Pavement Design Survives a Decade”

wink


No problem as long as you replace it LOL and that's 1-1/2 decades wink beer

Re: Concrete Driveway problem / question [Re: TJP] #3053703
06/27/22 02:53 AM
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So loess ia a new one for me and I read a little on it.
Do you know if any calcium was worked into the original soil and watered and graded before the sand or rock base was placed?
At this point I'd NOT recommend the grousers. It'd be worth trying the e.j.'s in the worse area.
It may be worth discussing with the contractor a combination of the expansion joints AND also reinforced concrete curb along the slab where it's moving.
These types of problems are difficult to diagnosis without knowing all the site conditions.
The reason the cleats won't work is the weight of a vehicle will simply "push it down" into the loess soil. Of course they could be designed and constructed wider and with re-worked and supplemented sub grade material (most likely wider).What I do not know about loess is if it liquefies when you drive over it. i.e. water squeezes out and carry's fines up through cracks and appears on the surface. or elsewhere. As you drive off the area the water rushes back in.
Try the correct sealing and ea couple e.j.'s and see if it's livable.
Two about 10' apart for a potential future project if it continues to displace outward.
This future work would be to remove the concrete in that section and excavate downward between 18" and 24". working and treting the removed material with calcium and/or incorporating or replacing the excvated material with good rock subbase material and compact it well (90 to 90% compaction. Then grade the top with base rock pour a reinforced slab that includes four "keepers" that are about 12" wide and deep and also run under the edges of the cut surfaces of the existing slabs. The goal is to create a seat, or abutment with little wing walls. This new slab and keeper/abutment will need reinf. steel that is tied into the slab. These keepers should be poured at the same time as the slab and the entire "unit" of 2 keeper/abutments and the slab would be monolithic.
This is something I would not let a contractor design and is should include soil analysis.
You'd be effectively creating a floating foundation/road with curbs to contain movement of the up and downhill segments.
The other concept is similar and consists of cutting 3' (more or lass determined by engineer) digging down 24 to 30" across the drive , rework the soil, pour a 3'wide reinforced footing and 12" with clete (stem wall, all reinforced with steel) and then back fill and compact therest of the trench and pour concrete or pave.
I feel for you. Through the years I've worked on all sorts of problems caused by man and nature. This one seems to have a little of each. Key is finding the angle of repose and depth to dood bearing

Re: Concrete Driveway problem / question [Re: srt] #3053976
06/27/22 10:02 PM
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i will see what the Concrete stabilization company has to say. i can live with the driveway as there is no other issue with it. I'm just tired of the caulk expense every year. Reading you earlier posting on preparation and equalizing the depth to the width, I do not believe has ever been done by any of the contractors hired. One at a bid of 4.5K offers an 8 year warranty. While it's pricey i can guarantee I've probably spent 2x that in the last 8 years.
So i will seer what mr. stabilizer has to say (they are very well known) and then likely quiz mr caulker a bit more with my newly gained knowledge and go from there.
I will be reporting back. thanks again to all for their assistance beer

Re: Concrete Driveway problem / question [Re: TJP] #3054965
07/01/22 03:23 PM
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Well Mr. Concrete stabilizer specialist was quite impressed with himself. Sent me a nice informative book/brochure which had some Stroke and Poke in it, but informative if one read between the lines. It also had a tube of warming KY laugh2
So after his evaluation and attempt to impress me even further with his laptop video at which time I said just give me the numbers. He obviously expected me to just rollover as he say's about 28,500 should do it eek eek
I asked him what flipping galaxy he was from and said that ain't gonna happen. Did you see a big R for Rockefeller when you drove up my driveway? I actually got a little PO'd and told him you just wasted both of our times. Do you think I'm an idiot? At this point he knows he's about ready to head down that long driveway filling the joints with his butt as he slides LOL. So he quickly makes some adjustments on his laptop blaming a new bidding program while doing so. After a few minutes of fumbling, he says my apologies how does about 14K sound. I asked with what kind of warranty on the work? He responds with 5 years.
I said pack your sh-t were DONE!!!
So I still have the one guy at ~ 4.5K with an 8 year warranty which is obviously a lot more attractive but wanted your inputs before making a decision. my issue is time and this is just not in my experiences toolbox not to mention some physical limitations at 68 YO.
One of you (SRT) mentioned liquid rubber. Again ZERO knowledge on this, what might the cost / advantages be over the Material the contractor is proposing to use DOW SIL CCS (contractors concrete sealant). I am attaching links to the spec sheets/ info on the DOWSIL product.

DOWSIL MAIN PAGE

TECHNICAL DATA SHEET

CERTIFICATION LETTER

WARRANTY WITH LOOPHOLES LOL

TECHNICAL MANUALS

VERIFICATION TEST 1

TEST VERIFICATION 2 MORE DETAILED

If this is asking too much I understand. Either way, I cannot thank all of you enough for your input

Tim





Re: Concrete Driveway problem / question [Re: TJP] #3055199
07/02/22 11:32 AM
07/02/22 11:32 AM
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I've not used the product so can't really comment.
I found here: https://www.dow.com/documents/en-us...-dowsil-contractors-concrete-sealant.pdf
Leads me to believe it is more of a "bandaid" type seal and nor really for flatwork:
DOWSIL™ Contractors Concrete Sealant is a one-part, low modulus, neutral-curing silicone sealant
for use in non-specified, general concrete weathersealing applications. It is available in a wide variety
of colors.



Joint Design
DOWSIL™ sealants have been designed to perform when installed in compliance with accepted
weathersealing procedures. Industry guides documenting in detail the procedures for designing
weatherseal joints are available in publications such as ASTM C1193 Standard Guide for use of Joint
Sealants. Some good examples are found later in this document.
Dow has found that a few underlying principles are critical to consider in virtually all joint designs using
silicone sealants. When considering the design of weatherproofing joints, the following basic points
must be addressed:
• In all cases, a minimum depth of 1/4" (6 mm) sealant/substrate bond is necessary to help ensure
adequate adhesion.
• In most cases, a minimum width of 1/4" (6 mm) opening is necessary to help ensure that sealant
applied from a caulking gun will flow into the sealant joints. NOTE: In some cases where the
sealant is used simply as a non-moving bedding compound and is applied to one substrate before
both substrates are pressed together, thinner joint dimensions are acceptable.
• One-part silicone sealants require atmospheric moisture to fully cure. Therefore, the sealant joint
must be designed to ensure that the sealant is not isolated from the air.
• For weatherseal applications where the sealant joint may be covering shims or setting blocks,
dimensions may be less than the recommended ¼” (6 mm) if the application is relatively static,
where expected movement is 15% or less. The dimensions should typically not be less than 1/8”
(3 mm) to help ensure proper adhesion and sealant property build

I really think if mine I'd call the local airport or road maintenance division and find out who they are using for the rubberized material.
Quick search yielded
https://www.laymanpaving.com/crack-sealing/1869826

Keep in mind crack sealing either tube or hot pot needs to be done properly (routed, prepared by clearing debris and drying (compressed air).

Most important crack sealing will only keep water out and fines in the base course if properly done (depth to width ratio of material).
It will not solve the underlying cause of the movement. My gut says thermal expansion contraction as the slabs (think sheets of ice) move about through the season.
You have effectively a concrete glacier.creeping downhill very slowly.
It sux the original contractors did not express their lack of knowledge.



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