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Re: Electric Motor issues
[Re: cudaman1969]
#3026713
03/23/22 11:53 AM
03/23/22 11:53 AM
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TJP
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Maybe this isn’t the place to post this but I know this is where the smart guys are and I need answers. Lathe motor single phase 220 volts. Runs fine in reverse but forward I have to spin it by hand to move than it doesn’t have any torque to cut material. Like I said backward is great. What is the problem? I had a rotary switch and contacts look clean. Recently went through this and after being sold a new motor by the "tech support" if wound up just being a contactor that the members on here helped me diagnose. The contactor reverses which leg of the 220 the motor starts with, thereby setting the direction of rotation. Also look on ebay & amazon as the MFR was out of stock but plenty were available and cheaper to boot  BTW: I have a nice 2 HP 220 single phase reversible motor for sale
Last edited by TJP; 03/24/22 08:48 PM.
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Re: Electric Motor issues
[Re: cudaman1969]
#3026970
03/24/22 05:28 AM
03/24/22 05:28 AM
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That’s it? No electrical engineers on here today? Due to the fact that I'm not clairvoyant, what is the make and model of your lathe. Without knowing the particulars of your situation it's hard to give any useful comments.
"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
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Re: Electric Motor issues
[Re: 6PakBee]
#3027012
03/24/22 09:47 AM
03/24/22 09:47 AM
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That’s it? No electrical engineers on here today? Due to the fact that I'm not clairvoyant, what is the make and model of your lathe. Without knowing the particulars of your situation it's hard to give any useful comments. What the motor is attached to has zero to do with why an electric motor spins great one way and barely the other. I described what the motor is in my first post question. But thanks for reply
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Re: Electric Motor issues
[Re: cudaman1969]
#3027017
03/24/22 10:01 AM
03/24/22 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by 6PakBee
Originally Posted by cudaman1969
That’s it? No electrical engineers on here today?
Due to the fact that I'm not clairvoyant, what is the make and model of your lathe. Without knowing the particulars of your situation it's hard to give any useful comments.
What the motor is attached to has zero to do with why an electric motor spins great one way and barely the other. I described what the motor is in my first post question. But thanks for reply Y'know, when you're asking for help even the dumbest questions deserve an answer !! (And I'm by no means saying 6PakBee's question is dumb !)
Last edited by Stanton; 03/24/22 10:02 AM.
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Re: Electric Motor issues
[Re: cudaman1969]
#3027034
03/24/22 11:03 AM
03/24/22 11:03 AM
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That’s it? No electrical engineers on here today? Due to the fact that I'm not clairvoyant, what is the make and model of your lathe. Without knowing the particulars of your situation it's hard to give any useful comments. What the motor is attached to has zero to do with why an electric motor spins great one way and barely the other. I described what the motor is in my first post question. But thanks for reply It has everything to do with it. It COULD BE a simple split winding single phase motor with a starting switch or it COULD be a capacitor start single phase motor, or it COULD BE a capacitor start, capacitor run, single phase motor. With the lathe make and model, someone who was trying to help you could google the wiring schematic and offer some opinions. But as it is, my crystal ball is in the shop for repair so I can't be of any help to you.
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Re: Electric Motor issues
[Re: cudaman1969]
#3027065
03/24/22 12:57 PM
03/24/22 12:57 PM
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That helps immensely. Reversing an AC MotorIt sounds like you have a bad reversing switch. Now that I've seen what you have, all the symptoms you describe of running acceptably in one direction and not running in the other direction unless manually turned indicates that the starting switch and starting capacitor are operational in one direction and not in the other. That typically is a switch problem. Your comment about the motor not having any torque when you manually spin it to start sounds like you have a capacitor start/capacitor run motor. The motor nameplate details will firm that up.
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Re: Electric Motor issues
[Re: cudaman1969]
#3027744
03/26/22 12:30 PM
03/26/22 12:30 PM
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Got some pics, two capacitors front one sparked big time when touched with screw driver. Capacitors will do that as they store the electrons, cdo be careful as depending on the size of the capacitor the energy stored can be lethal  That capacitor in the lower part of the pic (red and orange wires) is a strong suspect as it appears to have been leaking. Wait for one of the more astute members to verify. Wouldn't doubt you could swap the capacitors to confirm but also be aware they are polarity sensitive and can blow up if hooked up backwards
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Re: Electric Motor issues
[Re: cudaman1969]
#3027892
03/26/22 08:46 PM
03/26/22 08:46 PM
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From your symptoms I guessed that it was a capacitor start, capacitor run motor. If you look at the attached sketch, the way the motor is reversed is that the two leads for the start winding are switched by the directional switch. Sometimes the run winding is switched but that is rare. What I think is happening is that in the direction that operates normally, the start and run windings are connected. But in the other direction one of the leads for the start winding is not connected which leads to a no start and poor peformance. My money is still on your reversing switch.
BTW, shorting a capacitor doesn't hurt it. In fact, if you are working on something with large capacitors it's normal procedure to discharge them rather than get knocked on your butt.
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Re: Electric Motor issues
[Re: cudaman1969]
#3027936
03/26/22 11:28 PM
03/26/22 11:28 PM
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110 volts with a 220 motor? If you take readings to the neutral (ground) you can get misleading results at times. What I would recommend is measuring across the winding that is switched and check for 220 in both directions of the reversing switch. I'm going to guess that you won't have 220 in one of the two directions.
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Re: Electric Motor issues
[Re: cudaman1969]
#3028047
03/27/22 01:02 PM
03/27/22 01:02 PM
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Whoa! There most certainly is 220 single phase in a typical service entrance. Water heaters and electric furnaces all use both of the 'hot' leads for 220 volts. A 220 volt outlet such as a NEMA 6-15 or a 6-20 will have both 220 leads and a ground, no 110 volt. My caution is that if you are measuring one side of a 220 volt winding to ground, you may not be accurately accessing the situation.
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Re: Electric Motor issues
[Re: cudaman1969]
#3028121
03/27/22 05:35 PM
03/27/22 05:35 PM
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one 220 the other two are 110 (3 phase) That is not how three phase works. All three legs will read the same. What you have is two 110v feeds of different phasing that read across gives you 220.
Last edited by Sniper; 03/27/22 05:37 PM.
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Re: Electric Motor issues
[Re: Sniper]
#3028187
03/27/22 10:12 PM
03/27/22 10:12 PM
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What you posted is accurate but misleading. Look at the following diagram, if the installing electrician had his act together he would have placed 50% of the load on one of the incoming legs and the other 50% on the other incoming leg. Theoretically, if the two 110 volt loads are equal, what you have is two 110 volt loads in series for a total 220 volt load. Theoretically the neutral, the center tap on the utility transformer has no current if the two 110 volt loads are equal. But since they never are, the neutral is to tie down the neutral point such that the two 110 volt loads actually see 110 volts. That is why the conductor sizes vary between the three. For my utility the standard is #4/0 for both hot legs and #1/0 for the neutral.
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Re: Electric Motor issues
[Re: Sniper]
#3028200
03/27/22 11:21 PM
03/27/22 11:21 PM
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one 220 the other two are 110 (3 phase) That is not how three phase works. All three legs will read the same. What you have is two 110v feeds of different phasing that read across gives you 220. I guess my volt meter has been wrong for years
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Re: Electric Motor issues
[Re: 6PakBee]
#3028203
03/27/22 11:43 PM
03/27/22 11:43 PM
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What you posted is accurate but misleading. Look at the following diagram, if the installing electrician had his act together he would have placed 50% of the load on one of the incoming legs and the other 50% on the other incoming leg. Theoretically, if the two 110 volt loads are equal, what you have is two 110 volt loads in series for a total 220 volt load. Theoretically the neutral, the center tap on the utility transformer has no current if the two 110 volt loads are equal. But since they never are, the neutral is to tie down the neutral point such that the two 110 volt loads actually see 110 volts. That is why the conductor sizes vary between the three. For my utility the standard is #4/0 for both hot legs and #1/0 for the neutral.
Yes he had his act together, one lead wire for each leg going up the box. For 220-240 the breaker connects to each leg (2 wires running to 220 appliance). Switch works ok, contacts clean. Changed caps still doing the same thing. I’m pulling out the motor since I can’t see the wire hookups. Been dreading that because the two back bolts are hard to get to. Got to many red wires coming out of the motor.
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Re: Electric Motor issues
[Re: cudaman1969]
#3028261
03/28/22 08:59 AM
03/28/22 08:59 AM
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The fact that the motor started and ran normally with acceptable power in one direction told me there was nothing wrong with the centrifugal starting switch, the start capacitor, or the run capacitor. The failure to operate in the other direction still seems to me to be caused by a failure to successfully switch whatever winding is being used to reverse the motor, probably the start winding as it won't try to start. Before you start field stripping the motor, determine what reversing switch you have. It should be wired something like this. Caution: this may not be your exact switch, you will have to determine what you have. Then measure the voltage between the switch connections in both directions. Measure between #2 and #3 and between #4 and #1 in one direction. Reverse the switch and take the same readings. I'll bet you a beer you won't have 220 volts for all four readings.
The following diagram illustrates what I mean.
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Re: Electric Motor issues
[Re: cudaman1969]
#3028283
03/28/22 10:09 AM
03/28/22 10:09 AM
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On the cover for the switch do you have a manufacturer and model? These things are similar but not identical manufacturer to manufacturer so I am loathe to recommend anything specific without that info.
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Re: Electric Motor issues
[Re: cudaman1969]
#3028377
03/28/22 02:12 PM
03/28/22 02:12 PM
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If this is the switch you are using, then according to the attached PDF it appears you have a scheme 34 Bremas switch. The run terminals would be U and V and the start terminals would be Y and Z.
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Re: Electric Motor issues
[Re: cudaman1969]
#3028545
03/29/22 12:43 AM
03/29/22 12:43 AM
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Got some pics, two capacitors front one sparked big time when touched with screw driver. I’m pretty sure this part is what’s bad (silver capacitor) the needle on meter doesn’t move, the other one does. The guy changed a few wires so can’t go by the diagram now but looking at the switch and connections I figured out which ones do what.
Last edited by cudaman1969; 03/29/22 12:47 AM.
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Re: Electric Motor issues
[Re: cudaman1969]
#3031558
04/07/22 12:39 PM
04/07/22 12:39 PM
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Update, got two new capacitors then put the motor back in. Ran the same, slow cw, ok the other. The inside plate in the end of motor had numbers next to each connection so I compared the drawing and numbers. I then hooked it up without switch (changing red and black leads for direction) . Same results. After going thru the connections again I found the two line ins were swapped, L1 stays hot no disconnect but line 2 is connected to the yellow and either black or red (direction change) switched those and all’s well. I have no clue how long it was like that since Jimmy died back in the 90s and his son died in March ( motorcycle acc), but I’m almost sure Jim put the motor on in the 60s. I’m a happy camper now, just had to get my noodle working right. Took it to the motor shop (80 years in business) and they couldn’t explain the problem either, said they’ll have to break it apart to trace wires so I didn’t let them $$, new motor was cheaper.
Thanks for the help guys
BTW that new capacitor nocked the living sh!t out of me, didn’t realize it feed back thru one of the connections!!!! Got me next to the thumb in the palm, felt funny for awhile.
Last edited by cudaman1969; 04/07/22 12:43 PM.
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Re: Electric Motor issues
[Re: cudaman1969]
#3031625
04/07/22 03:43 PM
04/07/22 03:43 PM
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Glad to hear you got it figured out!
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Re: Electric Motor issues
[Re: cudaman1969]
#3031695
04/07/22 08:55 PM
04/07/22 08:55 PM
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BTW that new capacitor nocked the living sh!t out of me, didn’t realize it feed back thru one of the connections!!!! Got me next to the thumb in the palm, felt funny for awhile.
Originally Posted by cudaman1969 Got some pics, two capacitors front one sparked big time when touched with screw driver. Capacitors will do that as they store the electrons, do be careful as depending on the size of the capacitor they can be LETHAL   I'm reposting this for general info hoping someone remembers it if they happen to be playing around with electrical motors, old TV's radios' etc.
Last edited by TJP; 04/07/22 09:03 PM.
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Re: Electric Motor issues
[Re: wingman]
#3034810
04/18/22 08:00 PM
04/18/22 08:00 PM
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Update on motor, runs great, added two cutoff boxes and made some brass drifts (old propeller shaft)
Last edited by cudaman1969; 04/18/22 08:04 PM.
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Re: Electric Motor issues
[Re: cudaman1969]
#3034935
04/19/22 08:29 AM
04/19/22 08:29 AM
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Update, got two new capacitors then put the motor back in. Ran the same, slow cw, ok the other. The inside plate in the end of motor had numbers next to each connection so I compared the drawing and numbers. I then hooked it up without switch (changing red and black leads for direction) . Same results. After going thru the connections again I found the two line ins were swapped, L1 stays hot no disconnect but line 2 is connected to the yellow and either black or red (direction change) switched those and all’s well. I have no clue how long it was like that since Jimmy died back in the 90s and his son died in March ( motorcycle acc), but I’m almost sure Jim put the motor on in the 60s. I’m a happy camper now, just had to get my noodle working right. Took it to the motor shop (80 years in business) and they couldn’t explain the problem either, said they’ll have to break it apart to trace wires so I didn’t let them $$, new motor was cheaper.
Thanks for the help guys
BTW that new capacitor nocked the living sh!t out of me, didn’t realize it feed back thru one of the connections!!!! Got me next to the thumb in the palm, felt funny for awhile. So in other words, the lathe had NEVER worked acceptably since you got it? That would have been nice to know. It's one thing to try to revive something that died versus something that is dead.
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Re: Electric Motor issues
[Re: cudaman1969]
#3034960
04/19/22 10:14 AM
04/19/22 10:14 AM
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I never knew if it ‘worked properly’ or not since I hadn’t turned anything on it of any size that needed power. The run cap and start cap were bad or very weak, they were checked at the motor shop. I could have gotten wires wrong myself when I hooked the switch and motor back up. After hours on the net and looking at the diagrams on motor I figured it out myself. It’s running great now. At the end of the day, that's all that matters!
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