Well, here it is . . .

https://www.engadget.com/toyota-key-fob-remote-start-function-requires-subscription-111606852.html

From 2018 model year on, if you have a Toyota with factory remote start - gonna charge you $8/mth or $80/yr, in order for that feature to work !! . . . phhhhttt . . .time for aftermarket remote start !!

The nerds have inherited the earth : Once 3G cellular is killed off, then any vehicle with over the air use of 3G, won't be able to accept anything from over the air. Maybe you can PAY to have software & hardware upgraded to 5G ?!?! . . . look out !

Happy Wednesday !

Cheers

Mark

Yeah it is getting crazy. I have heard that they also want to make their computer (ECU) propitiatory to them and not to others, so the only one who could work on your car or read the computer would be the dealer.

Here to stay. In fact, Tesla (and I think BMW?) has previously deactivated options that you purchased if you end up selling the car. Not pay-as-you-go items, either. You bought the car, paid for the option like you would on any other car, but you sell the car, and they deactivate it.

Manufacturers are working to be the only ones that can work on new cars.

Reference windshields. With the advent of self correcting steering and the sensors in the windshield. New cars are not very friendly to the local Novis shop that sets up in your driveway. Sensors need to be calibrated. Good by $ 275 dollar replacement jobs.

John Deere has been fighting this fight for years in ag and heavy equipment. Automotive "Right-to-repair" laws in many states have prevented this, but as long as it's not necessary to operate the vehicle, they may have a loophole.

Wikipedia "Electronics Right To Repair"

Why anyone would buy a new car is beyond me. My 2015 is the last new vehicle I will ever buy, and the rest I have will last me for the rest of my life. I laugh at people who would buy any vehicle new...

Not a shocker, my newest rides are 2015-s and alpha obd will do most I will ever need to do on the electronics fix side.... old enough not to have buy anything newer.

My newest ride is an 04 model!
My old stuff has 1990s tech stuff in it. I should be good for at least the next 10 years.

My newest ride is a 65 Cuda.

My daily driver is a 51 Plymouth

This corporate scam started with computer software over a decade back. Nobody/few complained. Soon it will likely IMO "infect" even say your washing machine, as it builds a life long income stream, and kills new innovation and market place improvement. It can be regulated/outlawed, if the will exists.

Kinda like when in the 40's in Germany upon boarding the cattle cars, they were told,"just put all your valuables and your bags over there, and they will be on the next train to your new home"

It's still FREE if you are relatively close to the car like just about any remote start system or aftermarket system currently available. But it seems that say you work in the city and park in a parking garage a long distance (top floor of a high rise or public garage across the street) then you new a wifi/app to get your car to start so it's ready when you get there in 5-10 minute walk. Nothing new with paying for an app

Toyota lets you start vehicles like the RAV 4 PHEV remotely in two ways. One is over WiFi/LTE using its Remote Connect apps that cost $8 per month or $80 per year. The other is by using the key fob, which requires that you be relatively close to the vehicle.

Also nothing new with "paying" to have a dealer install an "option" or feature on motorcycles now. Motorcycle manufactures are charging, on some lower than top of the line models, where some features are baked into the original selling (MSRP) price for things like self canceling turn signals, addition of heated grips and heated seats, remapping for aftermarket or manufacture accessory (legal) exhaust system. Would you really expect to get your car tuned or re-jetted by a dealer or even a performance shop for free? As for the "Right to Repair" that's an issue that I'm behind as far as protecting the mechanics and dealers that pay to be a franchised dealer and have to pay their bills and their mechanics and their manufacture's spent lots and lots of time to develope certain aspects of their product so why should they give it away free? Harley Davidson has had to deal with this for decades with local non-Harley repair shops hanging a Harley-Davidson sign out front of some old gas station bike shop. Then when they screw up someone's bike on a repair or tune up they don't get the bad reputation for the botched repair and $#!t running Harley Davidson does. You can still do 99.9% of the repairs and adjustments without the factory data or special electronic equipment and JD, Harley, Honda, Chrysler, etc., are NOT going to hand over data and the programs they spent millions of dollars to develop for free so their dealers could make an income and protect their franchised business. Funny how my best friend had to pay Snap-On a fee of around $600 to update his Snap-On OBD scan tool.......I said you could go to Autozone and pick up a scan tool for less than a hundred bucks...........he looked at me sideways and I said "just joking" lol. No one is stopping anyone from working on anything if they want to work on something......the worst that happens is not warrantable, no free repair parts and no diagnostic tools or data for free to make the repair quick, easy, cheap and correct. The local franchised dealer gets to pay their overhead and pay their employees and the employees get to feed their familes and pay their mortgage and pay their go to work vehicle bills too. If you were a John Deere dealer you would hope that John Deere would go to bat for you to protect your franchised business that you have, in some case millions of dollars invested and in most cases for decades. Want to work on your combine you're more than welcome to do so..........just don't head over to the JD dealer and ask them to borrow their diagnostic equipment for a day or two........better to go to NAPA or Tractor Supply Company and see if they have a $100 JD combine scan tool you can borrow for free

No different (IMO) than a SiriusXM subscription or updating your onboard GPS with the latest maps. To update my wife's GPS it's over $350 and I don't know what she's paying for SiriusXM radio every year?? Apps and data are no longer free, yeah it's a new world. Used to get TV for free too (I think local still is free???), damn that DirecTV bill just won't go away every month.

A recurring fee is new, compared to paying for the option once. Deactivating an option is also new. No one's complaining about paying for an option. They're complaining because they shouldn't have to pay for it every month, and they shouldn't lose the value created by purchasing it when that option is deactivated upon sale/trade in of the car.

Mike what are some of these options that are being deactivated ?

I'm pretty sure this is a service very similar to Onstar or Sirius Guardian/Uconnect? Your key fob still remote starts, but your remote app is a paid service after the trial period?

The way the article is written, you will lose the ability for the fob to remote start the vehicle.

"Toyota lets you start vehicles like the RAV 4 PHEV remotely in two ways. One is over WiFi/LTE using its Remote Connect apps that cost $8 per month or $80 per year. The other is by using the key fob, which requires that you be relatively close to the vehicle.

Unless they read the fine print, however, owners may not have known that the key fob method was also part of the Remote Connect subscription. Toyota confirmed to The Drive that you'll need a paid subscription on every 2018 and newer Toyota model to use the function."

Well then, that's just chicksh*it

I think they're missing an opportunity here...

For $8.00 monthly or $80 a year, you get ad supported access to your car, for $25 monthly you get an ad free experience, except Toyota will still collect your listening and driving history and sell it to the highest bidder. And send your speeding events to the police...with the resultant kickbacks to Toyota from the collected fines...

Buy your Toyota stock now...

Corps are moving their products over to the 'xxx as a service' business model and recurring charging you for said service. Virtually every type of software and even operating systems. This has been the wet dream of every MBA to be able to control their product through its entire life cycle - right up to the point of disposal. Never was logistically possible before the Internet became wide spread and legislation like the DMCA became law.

As hard as that was to read, I think I got your point. The real problem with your scenario is that the 'stealerships' around here charge $150 an hour. Are barely competent. And are not very efficient. Without real competition, this will only get worse.

For an example, just look at service parts. Who here goes to the auto manufacturer for most wear items? When was the last time you bought wiper blades or bulbs or filters or brake pads from the dealer. You don't do that. And that's because they are not competitive and offer nothing for the additional cost. That is the same problem they have with service. But now they have figured out a way to FORCE some of us to deal with them. Some of us, but not me. No new vehicles. Not now, not ever. Just wait a few years, let the aftermarket catch up, and buy used.

I guess from reading these next two paragraphs someone will have to re-post this in 10 years to start another thread

Here's how it breaks down. For 2018 to 2020 vehicles with a remote start function on the key fob, the feature will work for three years over a "trial period." Even though an owner's fob features the button, the function will be deactivated after that three-year timeframe. To regain the remote start feature, owners will need to shop the brand's Connected Services for Remote Connect. The price is $80 per year or $8 per month, which also includes a host of other digital functions available through the Toyota smartphone app.

No new Toyota vehicles will feature the remote start function on a key fob. "As we move to more digital experiences within the Toyota app, key fob remote start is not a feature we actively market," the company said. For certain 2020 model year vehicles and newer, owners receive a 10-year trial for Connected Services. In other words, there's a good chance owners won't need to pony up the cash to use remote start since they get over a decade of free use. But, eventually, it will expire for good and require a Remote Connect subscription.

The most prominent examples are the auto pilot/self-driving features.

With those features does a new vehicle purchaser have to sign a wavier and/or liability release? I would think and hope so and that may be the reason it's not transferable??

They do not, no. I just gave that as one example.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/tesla...d-cars-after-owners-sell-them-privately/

Wow a nearly $9,500.00 U.S. option, yikes. and Tesla claims their info shows it wasn't paid for in the original configuration sale and that's why they deactivated it??? Would Tesla do that even if their records showed it was paid for?????

Great!
We are going to have a new bunch of fools that never learned, or have forgotten, how to drive because of these "features" and they are going to have to start driving again. Better up your insurance, I predict a lot more crashes when these fools loose their auto-driving features and are expected to remember or know how to stay in their own lane of traffic.

Will we be able to sue Toyota when the auto-drive vehicle went out of control because someone didn't re-up the subscription and they abruptly turned it off? Gene

Just another PERFECT example of people outsmarting themselves.

Like power steering, power windows, the A/C, the radio, etc. The technology is there for them to deactivate the features. I guess the way they look at it is why not? "That way we can make even more $$ by continuing to enable these features because we have the technology to deactivate them. We can extort $$ from all our customers."

Hey - whatever..................

I am not a pay per month advocate on anything. Greed is all it is.

BUT

How can a car company provide a cell phone based service each month without incurring a monthly cost?

Maybe I just do not understand how the cell based remote start systems work, but it seems to me the phone and the car would need a cellular service to make that long distance connection?

And long distance remote start is not the only feature you get with that option in the vehicle. Even now keyfob short distance is not free even if some think that it is, it's baked into the MSRP of the vehicle when originally purchased the vehicle just like power locks, power windows, etc., A SiriusXM subscription my seem like it's free for the first year when you buy a new vehicle but it's also baked into the price of the vehicle/model. When that "free" period ends get out the credit card and pay if you still want it.... and it's way more than $80 a year.

GREED is ALL it is.
one can only hope "what goes around comes around", and "karma is a b$tch"

Kind of like when Chrysler charged almost twice as much for an engine with less displacement than another performance package.

Greed

i forgot to add "what goes around, comes around".........

i'm glad my 1999 carotvan and my wife's 1994 concorde are the last cars we will buy in our lifetimes. her remote key fob works well, thank you.

I am a huge believer in the right to repair. You buy the product and it is yours to do with what ever you please. Allowing a manufacturer to have control in any way shape or form of the product you own is absolute bs. I don't care what the manufactures cry about with the amount of r&d they put into the product
They did this to build a better product to sell to the public and to business's and does not mean they get to have control of the product after the fact. Just goes to show you that big business has their hands wrapped around the politicians.

i agree with the right to repair stuff. but there should also be some limits to this.
my case in point.
i work in a VW dealer body shop. VW restricts selling structural body parts to only qualified repair shops with the proper equipment to install them properly. i know GM does this also. i hear a steady stream of stories from the guys in the parts departments about joe blow hack autobody car rebuilder who try to buy them and are denied. they are screaming about how they are violating the right to repair laws.
i myself agree 100% with VW on this. they should be allowed to restrict who buys these parts. if you are not qualified and don't have the proper equipment to install them. chances are they won't be installed properly and in extreme views can de value the car brand.

A lot of OEMs do that now, at least with some of their models. For example, you have to be OE Audi certified to get any structural parts on the TT, A8, R8. Tesla only sells structural parts to OE certified shops. My friend owns an OE Tesla shop, and whoo boy, are those things built like trash...but I digress.

Wonder if some of the workers are still using uhh "stimulants" to keep up with the line as was common practice back in the 70's. The new hires especially, as they typically got the real cr-p jobs that were near impossible to do without the above mentioned daily supplements.

What a load of crap. VW is concerned that some independent repairs may de-value their brand? After they got caught lying to the government and their customers about their emissions? That's rich!

And to think that denying anyone structural parts will stop that kind of repair by 'un-certified' reapir facilities is equally delusional. If someone can't get the parts from VW, they will either get them from a salvaged vehicle or worse yet, patch the damaged parts back as best they can. Either way, not VW or Tesla or the government have any power what-so-ever to prevent shoddy repairs if someone is determined to do it.

I'm somewhat surprised our save the planet groups haven't jumped on the remote start thing. Try to imagine the amount of fuel consumed and emissions generated in this country alone with the feature

Things like this make me glad I was born when I was, and grew up when I did. I don't feel a bit sorry for the upcoming generations as their parents are the ones creating the mess, but are to d-mn consumed with themselves to even realize the consequences of their actions.

Way off topic but something that has really bothered me. Eleven days ago was the 80th anniversary of Pearl Harbor. I only saw 1 post on FB acknowledging it. NOTHING on the media or anywhere else. It's as though it never happened

Exactly what i thought.

The kid across the street from me is constantly buying wrecked cars from copar. He frequently asks me how to fix it and I tell or help him do it. Every now and then one comes in with frame damage or other structural problems and I just tell him it can't be done in the driveway.

He send it to his uncle who straightens the structure enough to align the car and it's back in the driveway to be finished.

There are literally dozens of people doing this within a couple miles of my house. I guarantee you nobody is certified including the uncle who straightens frames.

What you're describing does happen, but not often with actual collision repair facilities. Backyard hacks, Youtube guys (like the Russian bodyman everyone here was singing the praises of), sure. But Google "John Eagle Collision Center," and you'll see why the vast majority of real collision repair shops are not deviating from OEM repair procedures.

Also, there are plenty of independent shops that are OE certified for this brand or that brand. My friend owns a shop that is OE Toyota and Lexus certified. He's 2 miles from a Toyota dealer, too, but the Toyota dealer doesn't own their own body shop. They lease space to a body shop, and that shop uses the dealer's name. My friend's shop gets all of the good Toyota/Acura jobs. The dealership shop gets the leftovers.The OE's are not concerned with who fixes it, whether it's a dealer, an independent, a consolidator (like Gerber), etc. They care that it's done right, and one way to ensure that it is done right is by placing limitations on who can order certain parts.

So, if you're not an OE certified shop, you are a 'back-yard hack'? Not much middle ground with you.

There may be plenty of body shops around you, but there are not very many left in the rural areas. The insurance companies and their OE allies have made it nearly impossible to operate a body shop. With all of the demands and restrictions put on them, we only have a handful of certified shops left in our area. And it is going to get worse. One of our best shops just got his rebuilder's license with our help. In the coming year, they plan to move away from insurance work and on to rebuilding their own units. May be less money, but certainly much less hassle including some of what you speak. They can not possibly go through the certification process for all the brands out there and cannot be a 'specialized' shop either. Just not enough volume of any single brand. They just had to do the aluminum thing and most are chafing at the thought of doing even more 'certifications'.

No matter what you or VW or any one else says, the OEs cannot possibly ensure the quality of work being done to their cars outside of their warranty process. And frankly it's none of their business. That is the domain of the regulators. In the end, as long as there are auto wrecking yards, the parts will be available. So in some ways, the OE's position on structural parts could actually make the situation even worse. But they don't care about that, do they?

I do have one question; What is the hourly repair rate at your 'certified shops'?

No, that's not what I said, or what I meant. What I meant was the scenarios you were describing were going to happen at hack shops and by guys doing hillbilly work, not that any shop that isn't OE-certified are hacks. No quality collision repair shop is going to try to circumvent OE repair procedures by fixing a car that the OE says they shouldn't be fixing. I know plenty of shops that aren't OE certified that do great work. I also know that none of them is going to try to do structural repairs on a vehicle that the OE won't sell them the parts for. They don't want the liability involved if something goes wrong. Like it or not, OE certifications are the future in collision repair.

As far as used structural parts, those are rapidly becoming a thing of the past. For example, used quarter panels were an every day occurrence 20 years ago. Now? With vehicle construction and assembly techniques the factories are using, it's become virtually impossible to put a used quarter panel on most cars...at least, impossible to do it correctly.

OE certified shops typically do charge higher labor rates, sure, at least on the cars that they are OE certified to fix. It costs a lot of money in facility and equipment upgrades and technician training to be OE certified.

i work in a "VW CERTIFIED" body shop. the only one in all of SE Wisconsin, Hall VW Mazda collision center.
i don't know how other manufacturers certify their shops. but to get VW CERTIFIED you have to allow VW access to your repair records and they audit the records and personally inspect a few repairs you have done annually. . they also do surprise inspections of your body shop several times a year to see how cars and repairs are done in the shop.
you are required to have certain type of equipment in your shop and it has to be maintained and checked regularly with the manufacturer. the shop must be currently I-Car certified and ASE certified. the techs need to attend both VW online and I-Car training classes and they must have current certifications on welding, painting and frame work.

i have to check a estimate but i think the shop charges $62 or $65 hr.

You are working in an entirely different universe than I see. Since when does a car manufacturer have any say over a car's repair that they are not directly involved in? Your 'higher rate' at certified body repair shops will create it's own opportunities for others to step in. And I will say again; As long as there are salvage yards, there will be used parts available. Or do you think that the OEs will seek to control what parts they can sell?

I am not seeking to promote anything here, just opening up your eyes to what the rest of the world is doing. The OEs do not have the power to deny anyone the ability to repair anything. They can only deny some of the best possible parts available for a repair. But if you think for a single minute that their denying parts to someone will cause them to abandon that repair.......well, good luck with that.

Your OE's stance on those parts have more to do with control than with concern over a properly repaired vehicle. How else have they demonstrated any concern on that subject? But they have certainly demonstrated their desire to control the ability of anyone other than themselves to work on YOUR vehicle. This is just another step in the same light of the origin of this thread. The OEs have given up on earning our repair business. They cannot compete. So they are trying new ways to FORCE us into their 'stealerships'.

Holy smokes, I need to start sending cars to you! That is well below any of the body shops here in the sticks of southern Illinois. That is a very reasonable rate. Very reasonable.

Bill Jacobs Chevrolet, Joliet Illinois, had a $65.00 an hour labor rate 30 or more years ago.

Ins companies around here only pay $55.00 per hour,I know a few shop owners& they all say the same.Two of the owners are not doening ins work any more they say it don't pay enough.

that's BODY SHOP labor rates for basic steel repairs and basic refinish rates.
we charge i THINK $85 hr for frame work, $95 for mechanical repairs like a/c work and replacing basic easy to replace mechanical components and easy wiring harness repairs and over $100 to repair aluminum.
the SERVICE rate it i THINK, i don't see their repair orders, is $170 hr.

All of those sound about right nationally as well. There are a few areas with higher rates, but those are around what we see every day in our group.

I've spent more than half of my life directly involved with the collision repair industry on a daily basis. I am familiar with what goes on. I've got all of my ASE certs, a ton of I-CAR training, etc. in order to stay on top of what's going on in this rapidly changing industry. As I mentioned before, a shop does not have to be a dealership owned shop to be an OE certified shop. My friend's shop is a good example. I'm 100% in agreement with you about being forced to use a dealership. I never use one once the warranty is expired, unless it's for a recall. One thing to keep in mind is that the OE's who limit the sale of some of these parts do not necessarily do so on every make/model they sell. For example, Audi did it only on their cars with an aluminum structure (A8, TT, R8). Anyone could buy a rocker panel or a frame rail for an A4.

There are plenty of opportunities to use used parts without compromising a repair, and on plenty of cars, too. But deviating from OE repair procedures by using them when the OE specifically says not to is not an acceptable repair. Example - for years, GM has said not to use used quarter panels on most of their cars. This dates back at least 15 years, and has nothing to do with OE certification. Yet, there are hacks out there who will do it because they have no regard for the safety of the people in that vehicle. The people who design and build the car are the absolute authority on how to fix the car, as they should be. They definitely know more than some guy in his backyard garage who thinks that making the panel gaps even equates to a quality repair. That's a separate issue from whether or not the OE has a right to dictate who has access to the parts necessary to fix the car, or what the OE's motivation is for doing so.

well , you can get off your butt walk out tour car and start it then go back inside and have your coffee while it warms up , Its not like you couldn;t use the exercise. people are killing themselves and future generations with creature comforts . if you want to [censored] about something do it about something worth while , like stanard transmission in pick ups or the fact that that you cant buy just a plain pick up for work .

Not sure how you define plain, but the statement is incorrect. Talk to the fleet sales guy if that is what you want.

I've spent more than half of my life directly involved with the collision repair industry on a daily basis. I am familiar with what goes on. I've got all of my ASE certs, a ton of I-CAR training, etc. in order to stay on top of what's going on in this rapidly changing industry. As I mentioned before, a shop does not have to be a dealership owned shop to be an OE certified shop. My friend's shop is a good example. I'm 100% in agreement with you about being forced to use a dealership. I never use one once the warranty is expired, unless it's for a recall. One thing to keep in mind is that the OE's who limit the sale of some of these parts do not necessarily do so on every make/model they sell. For example, Audi did it only on their cars with an aluminum structure (A8, TT, R8). Anyone could buy a rocker panel or a frame rail for an A4.

There are plenty of opportunities to use used parts without compromising a repair, and on plenty of cars, too. But deviating from OE repair procedures by using them when the OE specifically says not to is not an acceptable repair. Example - for years, GM has said not to use used quarter panels on most of their cars. This dates back at least 15 years, and has nothing to do with OE certification. Yet, there are hacks out there who will do it because they have no regard for the safety of the people in that vehicle. The people who design and build the car are the absolute authority on how to fix the car, as they should be. They definitely know more than some guy in his backyard garage who thinks that making the panel gaps even equates to a quality repair. That's a separate issue from whether or not the OE has a right to dictate who has access to the parts necessary to fix the car, or what the OE's motivation is for doing so. [/quote]





i have spent my entire working life in bodyshops. my first real paying job was at 12yo sweeping floors in 1976. i lied about my age and told them i was 16. back then you could get away with things like that.
i reached my full I-Car certifications in the early 90's, probably 92-3. i have probably attended well over 200 training classes over the years. i currently attend about 1 a month with online training. the more high tech car become the more training classes i have to attend

there is nothing wrong with using salvage parts. as not a charger states FOLLOWING MANUFACTURERS repair procedures is 100% absolutely important.

some background on I-Car for the those not familiar with it. it is a national organization comprised of car manufacturers, insurance co and repair shop organizations. they assist on keeping shops updated and cars repaired properly.

it has been mentioned before. THERE IS NO GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS regarding autobody repairs. this is covered thru LIABILITY LAWS. no one "DICTATES" on how cars are repaired. but if you stray away from factory repair procedures and someone get injured in a crash on your repaired car. be prepared to pay big $$$$ and spend years in courts. in the end the only people with $$$ in their pocket will be the lawyers.

this is where I-Car serves it purpose. they help establish thru working with the auto manufactures repair procedures called SOP aka standard operating procedures. some people might call this dictating on how a car is repaired. i myself see it differently. .with the insane $$ of cars these days owners keeping them longer and longer. certified shops and SOP's will give owners assurances that their car was repaired properly and will last a long life. also with rapidly evolving cars and new technology appearing daily making sure your repairer is up to date on SOP is important
.
the biggest thing is extensive uses of high strength and ultra high strength steel in cars. this requires specific techniques to safely repair properly. VW extensively uses high and ultra high strength steel in structural body parts. this is why they are sales restricted to only bodyshops.
in my opinion CERTIFIED bodyshops are the only one you should visit if you were in crash more than a minor fender bender. actually there are probably more certified independent bodyshops than dealer bodyshops

in MY OPINION in the future the car re builders will be regulated more and more as cars evolve. currently they are allowed to improperly repair and then sell AS IS thru auctions transferring liability to the guy who just bought it .in the future it wouldn't surprise me to see some of this repair liability being transferred back to the original repairer thru updating liability laws.


end of rant and back to the original topic.
something not mentioned earlier about subscription services. a lot of people don't know this, most of these services run on 3G wireless service. i know most VW built in 2018 and before are this way, a LOT of other manufacturers do also. 3G wireless will be eliminated soon. not only will you be looking at paying subscription services you might have to pay to install them AGAIN also.

Ever hear 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help you'? Do you believe that? How about 'I'm from VW, and you can't buy these parts for your own good'?

If the OE's primary interest was the safe repair of YOUR vehicles by anyone other than themselves, we would see them support that effort in some ways rather than simply saying "You can't have these parts".

We both have decades of experience in the auto repair industry. It appears that you feel that the OEs have our best interests in mind in this discussion so you 'trust' them and their decisions. I can say firmly that I have encountered very few (if any) times where an OE demonstrated any concern for anyone other than themselves. Every encounter is to their benefit. Their focus is to FORCE us to do business with them in the repair realm. Not to support affordable, competent, independent repair of their products. So, to say that they deny selling certain parts in order to protect the public from shoddy repairs flies in the face of all other evidence. They have shown time and again that they put their own interests above the public's.

yes the OEM's primary motivation is geared towards themselves.
the OEM's design and build the cars so they know best on how to repair them safely.
face it safety sells today. modern cars are extremely safe compared to older cars
. case in point this car, 2019 Tiguan, was towed into our shop about 1 1/2 years ago. someone ran a red light at a intersection in a 45mph speed zone.
there was a 12 yo boy in the passenger seat. other than bruises and scrapes he was basically unharmed.
the cowl is pushed in about 10". the center pillar is pushed in 6" yet the center pillar is basically straight. the floor and the roof are crushed.
if someone improperly repaired this car, mig welded on the ultra high strength steel center pillar and full side surround structure instead of squeeze type resistance welding that is required for proper repairs he would probably be dead today.

It's not that I trust them, I just trust them more than a guy (not you) who wings it and thinks he knows the best way to fix it when that way contradicts the OE repair procedures. If I were king, those parts would be available to anyone with the knowledge and equipment to fix the vehicle per OE repair procedures, but that's not how it works. I suspect that, in part, the OE wants plausible deniability when a repair shop fixes a vehicle in a manner that deviates from the OE repair procedure by being able to say that they limited access of the necessary parts to those shops that they knew to be qualified.

Why in the #ell would anyone want to be a dealer if EVERYONE could get EVERYTHING that being a dealership gets and currently protected by the manufacture for the dealer's investment of millions of $$$$?? If nothing is exclusive and protected for "dealers only" why be a dealer with overhead, employees to pay, parts to stock, service to provide, etc., Just open a shop in your garage or driveway and have access to EVERYTHING the manufacture has and at dealer prices. The original subject was about paying a subscription fee for a "service" for wifi based long range remote start which IMO is no different than a subscription for SiriusXM or any other service or GPS map updating. Do you think that "free" close range remote start is going to go away or become a subscription based option?? Don't worry some manufacture will still offer it baked into the suggest retail price as "free" and continue to force others to also do so. No one is stopping anyone from working on anything they want to.............just don't ask to buy factory direct at dealer cost, just go and find those cheaply made knock off Pacific Rim items that are stolen from USA and other manufactures. Wow has no one ever heard of patents??? Whew I think I feel better

Look at it this way, if my 2017 Ram needs a new quarter skin or door, I'd be real pi$$ed if I went into my local Dodge dealer to buy one & they said "sorry - we won't sell that to you." I can weld/install both.

Depending upon the manufacturer and the vehicle, you may end up having to go with used parts. Just keep in mind that if it happens, it's not the dealership saying they won't sell it to you...it's them telling you that the manufacturer won't let them sell it to you. Be pi$$ed, but direct it where it belongs.

selling you a 1/4 panel would be no problem, IF the part is actually available anymore.. a replacement frame or a partial frame MIGHT be a problem, but i really don't think it would. the restricted sales parts i am talking about contain high or ultra high strength steel. to install these parts properly you usually need a squeeze they resistant spot welder or a silicon bronze mig-braze welder. most full frame truck frames are made out of regular strength steel.

at least by me. with the prices of used southern rust free boxes these days. it might be better to just buy a new salvage box over repairing the damaged 1/4 panel one. our shop did this on the last 3 box sides that needed to be replaced.

And to clarify, my last comment was not specifically related to a door or box side on a Ram, but rather a general statement about buying OEM crash parts.

Lots of opinions here from folks that must not be familiar with the industry and how things work.

The VW SUV in the pics should not be repaired in my humble opinion. It should get a 'junking' certificate. As usual, the regulations are way behind where the industry is. Not everything should be repaired. There should be limits. But who sets them and how they are applied and then the tremendous variations make that nearly impossible. Then those units would only be exported. That big NAFTA sucking sound that Ross Perot warned us about.

This is a very complicated subject and one with no simple answers. But things could be better with more guidance from our regulators. I could get behind guidance that would cause structurally damaged vehicles to only go to a certified shop or be junked. But then, what may be considered structural on one vehicle may not be on another. In the end, every single vehicle would need to have their structural components identified. Quite a job.

And then, more vehicles would simply not be classed as 'salvage' in order to avoid all those issues. We are already starting to see insurance companies selling damaged vehicles with 'clean' or non-branded titles. Lots and lots of money in play.

Toyota backs off bad idea linky

Toyota 'Reviewing' Key Fob Remote Start Subscription Plan After Massive Blowback

A spokesperson told The Drive that making the key fob remote start part of a subscription plan was an "unintentional" move.

Sure, we believe you...