I have a question for the electricians here please. I recently purchased an abandoned gas station / car wash. It has been empty for at least 10 years. I am going to convert it to a different use, and I want to strip out all of the fixtures in wiring related to the gas pumping operation and convenience store coolers and equipment. But I want to keep the lighting and outlets and furnace, well pump, and the essential wiring in place. There is four or five different panels, and wires everywhere. The electrical power lines from the pole to the building have been cut off, so there is absolutely no power to the building at this point.

So what kind of apparatus can I use to most easily identify the circuit breakers and wires that lead to the essential fixtures, and which ones lead to the stuff that I want to rip out?

My plan is to get the demo done without the use of the electrician, then get a licensed electrician in to make any needed reconnections before getting the power hooked up again. I can run a generator or something to have some temporary lighting in there, but I'm looking for something, possibly battery-powered, that can allow me to trace circuits. Thanks, Joel

How about a Fox & Hound (or other cable tracer)? https://www.amazon.com/fox-hound-wire-tracer/s?k=fox+and+hound+wire+tracer

" I recently purchased an abandoned gas station" ............

I HOPE ? There are NO in-ground fuel tanks ?

Damn HJ ... kidMop ain’t KIDDING !!

You are now IN DA LOOP if there are tanks that have been or ARE leaking

Most of the wires are in EMT. I would need a tool that works well in that instance.

Doc, do you want to buy some large used storage tanks? Just pay the removal fee, and the shipping and they're yours!

I bought the property from the county. It was a tax foreclosure. They have been sitting on it for at least 10 years while they have pollution tested it in every way possible. They had every phase of environmental study done, drilled a bunch of test wells and monitored them, had the tanks emptied and cleaned, and the MPCA recommend no environmental remediation. I have all the paperwork from that. so I have a choice of either filling the tanks in with sand, or getting them yanked out of there. All of that is factored into the purchase price. The only reason I bought it is because it's two and a half acres adjacent to my roofing company parcel. It's hard not to buy adjoining land on a major state highway when it becomes available cheap.

I would try one of the tracers. You need one with pretty decent power - I would think. I have not used one. Because of the conduit, you would need to get to the fixtures/devices to tell or get to actual wires. Hook the tracer to the incoming lines. If 3 phase, you probably need to short the 3 phases together and hook up the tracer phase to ground.

If not obvious, you shut all the breakers off and turn them on one by one till the tracer beeps. Alternatively, you can short out each fixture/device and measure resistance on the incoming lines, but I would try a tracer.

It is very doable but will take some time.

Good luck!

GOOD you covered yur @$$ !


HJ ... you got me thimking... I could sure save somjue big $$$ buying resin and gel coat that way !

Me thimks SAND is the best option !

Is there anything on file at the City/County level from electrical permit(s) ?
Or is that electrician still in business ?
I assume nobody labeled anything in the boxes, or it's illegible at this point ?

Sounds like it could be a really cool toy shop...

It's in a small town that farms out the permits and inspections to a private company. But maybe? I think electric permits come from the state, but I don't think they require plans/schematics to be submitted.

But I subsribe to the wisdom of "Never ask the government for anything. You just might get it"

Depending on the age, code requires many things. labeled breaker boxes being one of them. I'll bet that your property is old enough not to have that though. It will once you finish what you are fixing to do.

Lots of changes to the electrical code over the years and many jurisdictions have adopted the National Electrical Code, which lays out all these requirements. Prior to that is was whatever the locals said it needed to be.

Hook up a car battery to the bus bar and start tracing

That is genius

What is the reason for wanting to "rip" any wiring etc out, other then remove unneeded fixtures? I'm having a hard time thinking of good reasons, based on what you have shared so far.

THe down side of having the power cut like that is they'll usually need to do an inspection and bring things up to code before they will connection again.

If you trust the wiring that's there you could hook up a portable generator to the panels and turn the breakers on one at a time to see what they do. That will also give you some power for lights and to get some things done. Definately not safe to do tho if tresspassers have been in there or if things have been torn out or the building has any damage.

Since no-one has said it yet lets see some pictures of this place.

The buss bar would energize every circuit. I'd do similar, but remove every neutral from the lug and connect the battery to each neutral and find what is energized. Doing so one could reattach every necessary neutral, and tap off/cut off each not needed. Lable each circuit as you i.d. it as well.
The nice thing about doing it that way is the battery could be attached to an outlet and test back at the box, larger circuits could be i.d.'d that way as well.
Just need to make sure all the neutrals are removed from the lugs, in the main, and any subs.

you could use the new " future " electrical contractor to do a sweep for you. he would be the one fixing it all down the road anyhow ... it would not take much to check it all and it could save you more money if they find issues that you miss..... codes are not the same everywhere so you may or may not get by...someone up to date will know this and the inspectors !!

Doesn't account for any two or more phase circuits as they may not have a neutral.

Tracing out wiring can be done with a simple volt/ohm meter and no power. Quite easy.
The conduits going to the fuel pumps should be in ridged GRC and have explosion proof sealing fittings so those ones should be easy to identify.
https://www.gordonelectricsupply.co...h09gSDftjU5TZbt8dDANvgIMiexoCePwQAvD_BwE

Huh? Say What? There is Single Phase and Three Phase...no "two or more phase".

Equipment such as 240V motors and heaters would not have a neutral he what he is trying to say. If you are an electrician you should be able to understand that.

EE and its real simple to say what is correct.

True. But I have found over the years on here that when someone ask an electrical question that most of the people giving answers are not electricians or engineers.
Two guys that know what they are doing could accomplish his task in probably a couple hours with a volt/ohm meter by ringing out the circuits. Did it many times back in the day.

Correct

This seems like a relatively small scope. I'm not sure just what code version your building was built under but commercial buildings usually require conduit of some kind. You mentioned that much of it is EMT. So I would just trace the conduit from the equipment to the distribution panels and then start pulling the wire out of the conduits. Leave the conduits though, you may find a use for them in the future.

Pull up the ancient 3-Stooges video "A Plumbing we will go"....."There's wires in these pipes"

My favorite Three Stooges short next to "Three Little Pirates".

"Moe: Razbanyi siati benefuchi timiniharogi. That, how do you call it, that froghead, he askee taskaskee, whatifichorsa inginzoben. Gotet something else kiddo?
Curly: Razbanyai siati benefuchi timinharongi. Paradeecke mahiha. I'd want to see that.
Moe: Sit down, you flatbush flathead! "

Maybe I shouldn't strip out much? The thing is there is three panels in the basement, and two or three on the main level. It's kind of a mess. It would be nice to consolidate it down to the essentials, but I suppose it's not necessary.

My reasonably intelligent and capable handy helper guy will work 6 hours for for the cost of one hour of a professional electrician. So with him and me I'd like to get the grunt work out of the way before the pro shows up. Hopefully they don't make me go to a code update. I had to do that once before and it was a bunch of really expensive nonsense in my opinion.

Sounds like a plan. Cleaning up years and years of hack-job wiring is always a good thing to do for your own sanity going forward. Nothing worse than a National Lampoon Christmas Vacation wiring job with some switch on a bathroom wall turning your main power on and off!

Depending on the size of the building, what I would probably do is:
One breaker at a time, connect the hot and the common together, then go to each outlet, light, etc... with a multimeter and do a simple continuity check. Might be labor intensive if this is a large building.

EDIT: I would also number each breaker, then whatever you find on that circuit, write that number on the light or outlet. That way you can make sure you didn't miss anything.

hmm, 208/220/240 circuits? L1, L2, Neutral and ground

208/220/240 motors and heat don't use a neutral. L1, L2 and a ground. 120 volt motors and heat do use a neutral.

Motors and heat are not the only things using 208/220/240 power. The gear I commission uses all four wires. But the point was two phase power not the use of a neutral.

Easiest and fastest method is what I'm looking for. If I can use one of those hound dog scanner things to just magically follow the signal to the switches and fixtures without having to disassemble them, that would be the best. As long as it works through the EMT.

Well, good luck with that. One of the benefits of metallic conduit is that is a good shield. In your case that's really a drawback. I still think in the end you'll be tracing conduit runs and proceeding accordingly.

Nice job of mucking up a thread

I think you are now seeing the forest from the trees on the entire project.

And a real licensed electrician will shy away from anything not up to code, even if it appears to be nonsense, and sometimes is.

Stick to "Liberal Arts".....no, really

Any new work that you have done will have to conform to the current MN electrical code. Will that require updates? Who knows, it's so dependent on what you have done. But if I was a betting man I'd bet that you will run into this very situation.

Stick to "Liberal Arts".....no, really Butt still hurting from noting here multi bused powered circuits w/o a neutral?

The power is all cut off.
whatever circuits are desired to keep can be easily identified.
The others, simply trace back the color of your choice.
Place the battery, not at the box, but at the outlet, switch, junction box of choice and one can locate all the outlets, switches, etc on that circuit.
I've done it several times using even a ohm meter. And a long length of wire.
While you're at it is also possible to check leakage to emt.
fwiw, pulling in new wire and cleaning up any past fubars may be a good option for op.

Joel I worked for the power company for 40 years. Make sure there isn't any step down transformers in the garage. The last thing you want to do is backfeed one and kill yourself. I don't know how it is up there but for us once a service was removed the building had to be inspected and brought up to code.



Mike

Same here in So Cal.

Once we disconnect the service line. There must be an inspection to energize again.

You might try calling the electric company and try to see if they have a record of the service voltage that was last used on the account.

Is the meter still there? Sometimes it is and it will have a serial number in it that will help when you call into the electric company

You should also find out what voltage is available.

What might have been available to that location 10 years ago might not be available now. Typically would apply to 3 phase power. Facilities may have been removed if they only served that building. Or only served yours and other buildings that have been also removed.

Sometimes they put service poles to feed gas station storage tank monitoring equipment. That could be the last service ran to the property. That may have a slightly different address depending on where it was on the property or to distinguish it different than the building.

You can also get very good educated guesses on available voltage by seeing what services are fed from the secondary distribution overhead wire. Like if a house is also feed by pole that also would feed your building; it’s probably 120/240v 3W 1ph.

But it could have two sets of secondary distribution wires. The second might be 3 phase. Or might be duplicate voltage of the first. But then you know to keep investigating and follow wires back to feeding transformer or transformer bank (3-ph).

There was a three phase service, and a single phase service. The three-phase was used for the convenience store coolers and for the 25 hp carwash pump, maybe other stuff too. I don't need any three-phase, that is all going to be abandoned. Single phase is enough to run lights, furnace, air conditioner, and well. They also had an off-peak electric water heater that had its own meter and panel.. I don't know if I want to fiddle around with the off-peak, or just wire up to the regular panel.
The building was built in about 83, so it's not like I have a bunch of old most chewed cloth covered knob and tube stuff. I just need to sort it out and figure out what I'm going to use and what to abandon. Thanks for all your help guys

Will they let you only bring single phase into the building like you want? If the panels and distribution that's in there now is 3 phase it'll need to be replaced with single phase and that's probably something they would want to see done by an electrician. You might be better off getting an electrician to trace whatever you want at the same time. It does't take them that long and even if they label stuff and you can remove what you don't want yourself the time saved would probably be worth it.

Theres another approach.

If you have and electrical contractor that you like hire them to get the power restored and disconnected the unwanted, and you demo it.

Most power companies require a letter from an ec if power has been off for more than 12 months.

Or you can power it up and hopefully not hurt yourself or someone else or the building.

It’s sounds like there were 3 meters

1 phase
1 phase “off peak”
3 phase

He just wants to use the 1 phase.

Your probably going have to check with your power company and local building dept. They all have different requirements in different areas. You'll probably have to pay an EC to pull a permit and clean things up before the power company will energize the service. They are not going to have any liability put on them. Beings that it is a commercial property the build dept. will probably require that an EC do the work. You might as well find out now as you will have to sooner or later. Talk to your local authority having jurisdiction whether that being the city, county or state..

He didn't know what else is on 3 phase. My point is that if anything still needed is hooked up to 3 phase panel either the panel will need to be replaced or the stuff re-wired to a single phase panel already there. Which is a also good idea to replace those panels either way when it's that old and don't know what's been done to it over the years.

I don't understand the aversion here it seems to 3 phase, it adds a lot of value IMO to a commercial building for future potential owners

True. But place has been vacant over 10 years. Doesn’t exactly sound like potential Walmart property

3ph Service usually cost more per month.

What 3 phase voltage is it? If 277/480 then need step down for 120 stuff. If 120/208 or 120/240 3ph then you can wire 120 1ph circuits.

Sounds like he’s not running any 3 ph equipment

And there’s a service panel and outlets already setup for 1ph.

Sounds like he’s just is trying to label and account for what’s what.

Sounds like a fun project! Wise move to purchase the acreage adjacent to yours.

I was just at a car lot North of the Twin Cities and the guy there had converted a car wash into his business building. He'd made each wash bay into a separate garage stall with lifts, tools, etc. It was really slick for the car lot needs. Nice looking facility as well.

No need for 3 phase, I will just be using it as office space and storage and a parking stall in the car wash. 3 phase here is a separate meter and a separate billing with a hefty monthly minimum that I don't need. By the time I'm ready to get rid of the place, it will be bulldozer/redevelopment time. Along with my adjacent parcel, I now have 7.5 acres with 800+ feet of frontage on a US highway in a growing outer ring suburb with utilities available. Someone will want that for something big in the future. I just hope I live long enuff for it to pay off!

Beating a dead horse here it seems, not sure I understand why 3 phase costs more from the utility, usually the main power monthly costs are per kw used, 3 phase has no other real downside, if OP ever finds a use for it, like with a "real" compressor, lathe, mill, etc it will be a real plus if functional, all other normal "single phase" equipment can usually run off of a 3 phase system, and if hell bent on downsizing the existing wiring, ditch the single phase distribution. My leaning towards the 3 phase here is assuming its a 120/208V 3 phase, if a higher voltage system, never mind.

3 phase has higher base charges and higher KWh charge. Each voltages served has different rates.

Residential rates are less than commercial rates. Ag rates different than commercial rates. Water pumping rates different than barn/equipment rates... on and on

Commercial rates have levels/classes of avg KW per month. IE: up to 20kW, 21-199kW, etc

With Smart Metering we can do Time of Use rate. So charged different for peak vs off-peak use. Charge you car in middle of night for cheaper off-peak rates.

Your Public Utility Commissions dictates this stuff.

Not sure what your point is here, the Op's application is not residential, and other then maybe the difference in a base monthly charge between an existing 3 phase meter service and an existing single phase metered service, he is still only being charged for the electricity (KW) he uses, nobody should think think 3 phase consumes more kw for the same task, actually it might be slightly less.

It's the cost to the utility. Three phase has to have either 2 or 3 transformers to supply power single phase only 1. So we have to run 3 high voltage power lines,install 3 transformers instead of one. So not only is a 3 phase service higher but the cost of a single phase is higher based on what amp service it is also. So 100amp is less than 200 etc. Each time the amps goes up we have to install bigger wire,transformer,and generate more power.

Exactly

All I need to run is a small office. Maybe I need to find a 3 phase coffee pot.

But you do want to make sure the 3 phase is available in future for your speculative development plans.

For what you are thinking, you just need to make sure there are 3 high voltage wires above the transformers. On a pole line near or on your property line. That way you can feed primary voltage underground to a big 3 phase pad mounted transformer and possibly other equipment that would in turn feed a large shopping center.

My building next door has 3 phase for the body shop. I think they both hook up to the same place.

Perfect

You’re good.

I was just pointing out that if transformers (even entire poles) sit idle, the electric company can remove those as idle facilities.

One example of that around here is when citrus farmers stop service on electric wind machines. The electric company is obligated to take down transformers and poles if they only serve that that one service. After a period of time. Sometimes to put those poles and transformers back up at a later date could have six figure construction cost from electric company. Customers can pay “stand by” fees to keep that from happening if they chose.

Joel just a thought, you can leave all the 3 phase wiring in place without hooking it back up or paying for it and it will be there if you ever change your mind. Just hook up a single line and meter for your use. After working as a lineman for 40 years I will tell you this happens quite often on commercial buildings.

Mike

Exactly what? The OP& his utility already has 3 phase in place, there are no additional costs to anybody, he just has to decide which service serves his needs best in the future. my understanding from the utility perspective, they prefer three phase, as that is what comes out of the power plant, and with 3 phase loads, they don't have to deal with balancing the loads as much, just collect the money.

Joel....look at the power pole closest to this building, and see if it has transformers on it. If it has 2 transformers, there is a strong possibility that the power company can give you 200 amp single phase service by just running a new service line to the building. If it has high voltage lines and no transformers, the power company probably took them down and just left the pole and lines to hold the right of way. They can easily hang a new pot and run a service. If they can't. second 70 and I can! You can get your electrician to install a 200 amp meter base and 200 amp breaker panel inside if the inside single phase panel doesn't already exist. If you have a Fluke meter, you can tie the ends of the circuits together in the breaker panel, and go to each fixture and ring them out. You can set the Fluke meter to audible tone ohm setting, and not have to look at the meter to know if they ring out. I see your point of not wanting to spend a lot of money for 3 phase service you will never use in an office/storage space. Let the next owner do that after the aforementioned bulldozer is done....lol.

I have an update for you. I met over there with a licenced electrician to formulate a game plan. He talked to the electric coooperative. They didn't want anything, just let them know when we are ready. The electrician wanted to rip out all the old panels and meter sockets and conduit and cables, and start from scratch. I asked him to back off on that idea, we will replace what is shot, and reuse what is sensible and safe and economical to reuse.
So he is replacing the meter socket with a new one, and installing an adjacent master cutoff switch on the outside of the building. The meter socket will have two sets of output lugs, one for the main building, and one for the ex-car wash/garage. We will abandon the main cutoff switch and both panels that are in the basement. The new meter socket and main cutoff switch will have a new conduit going up into the attic and over and down to the existing service panel in the upstairs back of the building. There is two panels there, one feeds off of the other. Any circuits that were run off of the panels in the basement are either being abandoned, or they are going to be run up to the panel upstairs. They are planning to start on that next week sometime.
The electric co-op says we are going to stay with the three-phase service, but they no longer have a larger meter charge than single phase, so I have no issue with that.
I ran an extension cord over there a couple weeks ago from my adjacent building, about 350 ft of cord, and we got a furnace running in there and some temporary lights. My handyman guy ripped out the coolers, and removed all of the gas station control equipment and panels from inside the building, removed the conduit and wires feeding them, as well as the wiring that was feeding the walk-in cooler and the walk-in freezer.
Today I went over there with a helper to identify all the circuits. We ran a generator outside, and took an extension cord and cut off the female end, and plugged the male end into the generator. We ran it in through a hole in the wall where conduit had been removed. We took the neutral from the generator cord and hooked it into the neutral bar of the panel upstairs. Then with the breakers all turned off, we took the hot wire and touched the circuit breaker screw on each circuit one at a time. We simultaneously used one of those little current checking sticks and ran around to each outlet and fixture and stuff. And turned on light switches. Most of the lights worked when we powered them up through the breaker. We were able to map out the circuit breakers and label everything and create a chart. Everything that is no longer going to be used was removed from the breaker. So that effort is going to save the electrician a lot of time and save me some bucks.

The electrician looked over our work late this afternoon and gave it his blessing. He is going to run a circuit down into the basement for some lights and an outlet. The furnace circuit is already in the panel upstairs, and so is the sump pump.

Once we started haggling over the scope of work, I agreed to pay him on a time & material basis rather than a lump sum bid. As long as they don't goof around, I think that will work out best in this circumstance. I'll let you know how it comes out. Thanks for all of your help and suggestions!

Sounds like you're getting somewhere with it now.
It doesn't look too bad for an abandoned building, from those 2 pics anyway.

Maybe you can pay him with one of your gift cards. Lol

.

Now you're thinking!

It's interesting on the monthly meter charge. last time I had looked at this several years back, it was $7 a month for single phase commercial, and $49 a month for three phase if I remember right. Now it's $20 a month for either one.

Interesting... how different areas to different things.

Is their kWh rate the same for 3ph vs 1ph ?

This is a business rate either way.