Best Rear Main Seal Type
#2848681
11/19/20 03:00 PM
11/19/20 03:00 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526 North Carolina
cjskotni
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I have had (what I think) are chronic issues with the rear main seal on my 500 stroker. Crank is a 440soruce 400>>500ci 4.15 stroke. I have had leaks with: - stock retainer + regular rubber seal (2 different seals) - 440 source billet retainer + viton seal (currently installed) I am going to try and pull the oil pan in the coming weeks and inspect the seal to confirm. In the meantime, I feel like I should go ahead an get a new seal so I am ready if it does appear to be leaky when I pull the pan. I see 440source has two seals (above the standard rubber) - the Viton seal and the old school rope seal: hereWith my history in mind, should I do another go round with the Viton seal or try the rope seal? Before anybody asks, I did ensure the two seal halves were not lined up with the retainer/block joint and used a dab of RTV around each joint of the retainer/block. Also, I purchased the windage tray that has the silicone seals integrated from Summit. Any experience with these? Seems like such a great alternative to the PITA gasket sandwich. Any help is greatly appreciated! Thanks!
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Re: Best Rear Main Seal Type
[Re: cjskotni]
#2848697
11/19/20 03:16 PM
11/19/20 03:16 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,303 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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Have you verified that it is the main seal leaking and not the side seals leaking? If not do that first before trying again. If it is the main seal it will leak out onto the crankshaft flange and the oil will be slung out onto the flex plate and outwards from their If it is leaking out of the side seals it won't be on the crank flange I haven't had a rear seal leak in a lot of years, 100s of BB built. Let us know what you find out, maybe I can help you stop this
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Best Rear Main Seal Type
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2848830
11/19/20 09:19 PM
11/19/20 09:19 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 4,952 northwest USA
NANKET
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Have you verified that it is the main seal leaking and not the side seals leaking? If not do that first before trying again. If it is the main seal it will leak out onto the crankshaft flange and the oil will be slung out onto the flex plate and outwards from their If it is leaking out of the side seals it won't be on the crank flange I haven't had a rear seal leak in a lot of years, 100s of BB built. Let us know what you find out, maybe I can help you stop this Agree here. It’s not the type of seal or the caps fault, it’s how you install it.
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Re: Best Rear Main Seal Type
[Re: cjskotni]
#2848881
11/20/20 12:24 AM
11/20/20 12:24 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,760 Moved to N.E. Tennessee
GomangoCuda
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Also, I purchased the windage tray that has the silicone seals integrated from Summit. Any experience with these? Seems like such a great alternative to the PITA gasket sandwich.
Any help is greatly appreciated! Thanks!
that likely won't seal properly on a stock style pan rail due to the stiffening beads. Mr gasket says its made for a flat pan rail. See their note below. Note: Works best with smooth rail oil pans. Dimpled or grooved oil pan rails may leak without silicone sealant. Pics below show the problem
Last edited by GomangoCuda; 11/20/20 12:36 AM.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
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Re: Best Rear Main Seal Type
[Re: GomangoCuda]
#2848917
11/20/20 07:58 AM
11/20/20 07:58 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
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cjskotni
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that likely won't seal properly on a stock style pan rail due to the stiffening beads. Mr gasket says its made for a flat pan rail. See their note below. My pan is a Moroso and it has flat rails (no beads). I am assuming you would use no RTV on this tray save for a dab at any joints? Agree here. It’s not the type of seal or the caps fault, it’s how you install it. I am open to any tips on installation. Which orientation to install, where to use RTV, etc.
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Re: Best Rear Main Seal Type
[Re: GomangoCuda]
#2850903
11/24/20 01:16 PM
11/24/20 01:16 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
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moparjack44
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I had (thought I did) same issue on my 1st Gen 392 Hemi. Replaced rear main seal several times. Still had "the" leak. Finally found out rear of valve cover leaking, not the rear main seal. Just something else to check out.
K.I.S.S.
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Re: Best Rear Main Seal Type
[Re: cjskotni]
#2852237
11/27/20 03:52 PM
11/27/20 03:52 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,303 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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Please confirm this is the correct orientation for the crank seal and side seals. Looks good to me. Seal the sides up after it is installed correctly and make sure the bottom seals slide all the way in to the touch the block on the bottoms of both of them before sealing the sides up Let us know how that works out
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Best Rear Main Seal Type
[Re: cjskotni]
#2853471
11/30/20 05:39 PM
11/30/20 05:39 PM
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 12,245 Looking for a way out of Middl...
IMGTX
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While I am having a little bit of a problem figuring out exactly what I am seeing there it kinda looks like the crank has knurling? It was pretty much the standard for the factory to knurl the seal surface on the cranks back in the day, BUT they ran rope seals. If that is a knurl you need a rope seal. The lip seal needs a flat surface. Most old used cranks have the knurling worn down by the time we get to them so if the surface is smooth where the seal rides, then a lip seal is OK. At least that has been my experience
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Re: Best Rear Main Seal Type
[Re: IMGTX]
#2853485
11/30/20 05:58 PM
11/30/20 05:58 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
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cjskotni
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While I am having a little bit of a problem figuring out exactly what I am seeing there it kinda looks like the crank has knurling? It was pretty much the standard for the factory to knurl the seal surface on the cranks back in the day, BUT they ran rope seals. If that is a knurl you need a rope seal. The lip seal needs a flat surface. Most old used cranks have the knurling worn down by the time we get to them so if the surface is smooth where the seal rides, then a lip seal is OK. At least that has been my experience Never heard this before. True or not?
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Re: Best Rear Main Seal Type
[Re: moparx]
#2853576
11/30/20 09:49 PM
11/30/20 09:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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TJP
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there is also the rear cam soft plug. that is somewhat uncommon, but it bit me one time long ago. i can't remember what engine it was though. Had a customer several years back that had changed the rear main, pan gasket and even the oil pan several times. first question I asked was who put the oil galley plugs in. He said he hid and SWORE the were sealed and tight. OK. We proceeded to do the rear main and pan gasket 1 more time. Still leaking. After thoroughly brake cleaning the back of the motor and letting it dry, we started it and let it run for several minutes. We shout it off and using mechanical fingers with a small paper tower wadded up, I carefully snuck it up in bellhousing avoiding the bottom and rear main area. When I removed we had oil. I said oil does not run uphill. We pulled the trans and flywheel while he watched. The RR galley plug was only finger tight with no sealant. he left a pan gasket here so i had a sign maker buddy mount the gasket with "THINK OUTSIDE THE PAN JON" LOL Poor guy he said his driveway looked like the EXXON Vladez had been docked there LMAO
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Re: Best Rear Main Seal Type
[Re: cjskotni]
#2853799
12/01/20 02:26 PM
12/01/20 02:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 965 Odessa, Fl
blowndart
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Can anyone confirm that the crank knurling requires a rope seal? I don't believe that's true. All the BB cranks that I've seen have the knurling. The knurling helps keep the oil from getting past the seal as long as the knurling was done properly and not backwards, where it would direct the oil past the seal.
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Re: Best Rear Main Seal Type
[Re: IMGTX]
#2853869
12/01/20 04:35 PM
12/01/20 04:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
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Mopar Mitch
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To clear some technical confusion, the purpose of any rubber seal having helix grooves is to physically throw the oil back in towards the engine... if the seal is installed reverse (with the grooves facing the transmission, it will physically pump oil out of the engine.
It make no difference if the crankshaft has knurls or not... they are there to keep a small amount of oil on the shaft where the seal makes contact.
Rope seals were simple, back in the day, to install and low cost to manufacture... as well as the casting grooves for the seals were not dimensionally held at tight tolerances... where as rubber seals more commonly need a tight fit into their retaining grooves.
I'm a former gasket engineer from a major company... these are common questions being asked.
Mopar Mitch
"Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers!
Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
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Re: Best Rear Main Seal Type
[Re: Mopar Mitch]
#2853951
12/01/20 06:58 PM
12/01/20 06:58 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526 North Carolina
cjskotni
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To clear some technical confusion, the purpose of any rubber seal having helix grooves is to physically throw the oil back in towards the engine... if the seal is installed reverse (with the grooves facing the transmission, it will physically pump oil out of the engine.
It make no difference if the crankshaft has knurls or not... they are there to keep a small amount of oil on the shaft where the seal makes contact.
Rope seals were simple, back in the day, to install and low cost to manufacture... as well as the casting grooves for the seals were not dimensionally held at tight tolerances... where as rubber seals more commonly need a tight fit into their retaining grooves.
I'm a former gasket engineer from a major company... these are common questions being asked. Thanks for the clarification. I had a feeling the rope seal statement needed fact checking. I know this subject is beat to death on here but I have found so much conflicting information, I am beginning to feel like I know absolutely nothing. One last thing - good idea to cut the retainer down .010 or not? I know that will create a bit more "squish" on the seal but will the non-concentricity become an issue?
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Re: Best Rear Main Seal Type
[Re: cjskotni]
#2853952
12/01/20 06:59 PM
12/01/20 06:59 PM
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Greentween
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This post has some good info in it: https://board.moparts.org/ubbthread...r-main-seal-replacement.html#Post2686329You mentioned you had both OEM and Billet retainers to choose from. If you use the billet one, watch that it has proper clearance so it wont hit the cap as in the post above. I had one that would hit.Ordered a different one and it was fine. When I re-did my rear seal, I did not use side seals and instead filled them with RTV. This worked out for my situation - no leaks. I was doing the job with the engine in the car and with trans attached. I mention this because if the engine is on a stand and your doing it there, I think you can see if the side seals are sliding in correctly and bottoming out. Plus you can then seal the sides again from outside because trans is not there. But while engine is in the car, you loose that ability.
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Re: Best Rear Main Seal Type
[Re: cjskotni]
#2854414
12/02/20 03:41 PM
12/02/20 03:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442 NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch
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CJ -- DO NOT cut the retainer.. it will cause excessive pressure against the seal halves and premature wear.
Regarding the side seals, IF you only inject RTV silicone into those side vertical grooves, you need to add some kind of small wet (watered) felt strip into the side grooves.. because RTV .. with that type of thickness.. must have humidity to fully cure.
Otherwise, using the fiber strips often found in seal kits simply requires the strips to be pre-soaked in mineral spirits so that it will properly swell into the side groove.
Pre-molded rubber side strips may not fill the variable side seal gaps... the gaps vary per various production builds.
Mopar Mitch
"Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers!
Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
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Re: Best Rear Main Seal Type
[Re: cjskotni]
#2855653
12/05/20 12:11 PM
12/05/20 12:11 PM
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Joined: May 2008
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451Mopar
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Please confirm this is the correct orientation for the crank seal and side seals. That looks right. Getting those side seals all the way down is the hard part. I leave the side seals longer than the cap and work the cap up-and-down so they sit all the way down in the block. Also use a smear (not much) rtv between block and retainer ends. Make sure crank/seal have lube so the seal does not tear on startup. That Summit windage tray looks a bit different than the Jegs version? The Jegs version has slips on the side, and that Summit version looks like it has holes? I used the Jegs version of the windage tray on my 4.25" stroke 440 using an old Mopar Performance Street Hemi oil pan (and the viton rear seal like in the photo), and it sealed great! Really happy with the results. no drips at all. On the other hand, the 4.15" stroke low deck stroker was built with the standard rubber rear seal, and sandwitched factory type windage tray, and it is leaking pretty bad, but the milodon oil pan has taken some damage too. Fixing that oil leak is just another project to get done. I already bought a replacement oil pan, and the Jegs molded windage tray.
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Re: Best Rear Main Seal Type
[Re: 451Mopar]
#2855926
12/06/20 09:58 AM
12/06/20 09:58 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526 North Carolina
cjskotni
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I used the Jegs version of the windage tray on my 4.25" stroke 440 using an old Mopar Performance Street Hemi oil pan (and the viton rear seal like in the photo), and it sealed great! Really happy with the results. no drips at all.
Thanks for the feedback Did you use any RTV or any other type of sealant on the tray/pan? I am picturing a dab of RTV on the joints between the block and retainer/timing cover? Anything else or just install "virgin"?
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Re: Best Rear Main Seal Type
[Re: cjskotni]
#2856357
12/07/20 01:24 AM
12/07/20 01:24 AM
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451Mopar
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on the molded windage tray sealing, the seal material will stick to RTV, If you are going to run the engine on a break-in stand or dyno, I would try installing the tray/gasket dry and then check for leaks. Tray and crankshaft seals. You can RTV the gasket and depending on the oil pan rail, you might have to, it just makes the tray gasket material like a one-time use. Once you use RTV with the tray, you will have to use rtv everytime you have the tray and oil pan apart. Not really an issue if the crank seals (front and rear main) and you don't plan to take the engine apart again for a long time.
It is a good question. I had a 505" stroker that a friend and I build with his kid. Somehow, a piston was installed without the compression rings. We had put some rtv at the timing chain cover and rear main seal retainer, so that is when I noticed how the rtv bonds with the trays gasket bead material, when going back into the engine. I need to keep reminding myself to not get distracted when assembling engines, and double check what other people are doing if they are helping. FWIW, I was filing the rings at the time, not installing the pistons.
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