Best Rear Main Seal Type
#2848681
11/19/20 03:00 PM
11/19/20 03:00 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526 North Carolina
cjskotni
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
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I have had (what I think) are chronic issues with the rear main seal on my 500 stroker. Crank is a 440soruce 400>>500ci 4.15 stroke. I have had leaks with: - stock retainer + regular rubber seal (2 different seals) - 440 source billet retainer + viton seal (currently installed) I am going to try and pull the oil pan in the coming weeks and inspect the seal to confirm. In the meantime, I feel like I should go ahead an get a new seal so I am ready if it does appear to be leaky when I pull the pan. I see 440source has two seals (above the standard rubber) - the Viton seal and the old school rope seal: hereWith my history in mind, should I do another go round with the Viton seal or try the rope seal? Before anybody asks, I did ensure the two seal halves were not lined up with the retainer/block joint and used a dab of RTV around each joint of the retainer/block. Also, I purchased the windage tray that has the silicone seals integrated from Summit. Any experience with these? Seems like such a great alternative to the PITA gasket sandwich. Any help is greatly appreciated! Thanks!
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Re: Best Rear Main Seal Type
[Re: cjskotni]
#2848697
11/19/20 03:16 PM
11/19/20 03:16 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,303 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,303
Bend,OR USA
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Have you verified that it is the main seal leaking and not the side seals leaking? If not do that first before trying again. If it is the main seal it will leak out onto the crankshaft flange and the oil will be slung out onto the flex plate and outwards from their If it is leaking out of the side seals it won't be on the crank flange I haven't had a rear seal leak in a lot of years, 100s of BB built. Let us know what you find out, maybe I can help you stop this
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Best Rear Main Seal Type
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2848830
11/19/20 09:19 PM
11/19/20 09:19 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 4,952 northwest USA
NANKET
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 4,952
northwest USA
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Have you verified that it is the main seal leaking and not the side seals leaking? If not do that first before trying again. If it is the main seal it will leak out onto the crankshaft flange and the oil will be slung out onto the flex plate and outwards from their If it is leaking out of the side seals it won't be on the crank flange I haven't had a rear seal leak in a lot of years, 100s of BB built. Let us know what you find out, maybe I can help you stop this Agree here. It’s not the type of seal or the caps fault, it’s how you install it.
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Re: Best Rear Main Seal Type
[Re: cjskotni]
#2848881
11/20/20 12:24 AM
11/20/20 12:24 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,760 Moved to N.E. Tennessee
GomangoCuda
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,760
Moved to N.E. Tennessee
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Also, I purchased the windage tray that has the silicone seals integrated from Summit. Any experience with these? Seems like such a great alternative to the PITA gasket sandwich.
Any help is greatly appreciated! Thanks!
that likely won't seal properly on a stock style pan rail due to the stiffening beads. Mr gasket says its made for a flat pan rail. See their note below. Note: Works best with smooth rail oil pans. Dimpled or grooved oil pan rails may leak without silicone sealant. Pics below show the problem
Last edited by GomangoCuda; 11/20/20 12:36 AM.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
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Re: Best Rear Main Seal Type
[Re: GomangoCuda]
#2848917
11/20/20 07:58 AM
11/20/20 07:58 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526 North Carolina
cjskotni
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
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that likely won't seal properly on a stock style pan rail due to the stiffening beads. Mr gasket says its made for a flat pan rail. See their note below. My pan is a Moroso and it has flat rails (no beads). I am assuming you would use no RTV on this tray save for a dab at any joints? Agree here. It’s not the type of seal or the caps fault, it’s how you install it. I am open to any tips on installation. Which orientation to install, where to use RTV, etc.
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Re: Best Rear Main Seal Type
[Re: GomangoCuda]
#2850903
11/24/20 01:16 PM
11/24/20 01:16 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 211 Halifax, VA.
moparjack44
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 211
Halifax, VA.
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I had (thought I did) same issue on my 1st Gen 392 Hemi. Replaced rear main seal several times. Still had "the" leak. Finally found out rear of valve cover leaking, not the rear main seal. Just something else to check out.
K.I.S.S.
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Re: Best Rear Main Seal Type
[Re: cjskotni]
#2852237
11/27/20 03:52 PM
11/27/20 03:52 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,303 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,303
Bend,OR USA
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Please confirm this is the correct orientation for the crank seal and side seals. Looks good to me. Seal the sides up after it is installed correctly and make sure the bottom seals slide all the way in to the touch the block on the bottoms of both of them before sealing the sides up Let us know how that works out
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Best Rear Main Seal Type
[Re: cjskotni]
#2853471
11/30/20 05:39 PM
11/30/20 05:39 PM
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 12,245 Looking for a way out of Middl...
IMGTX
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 12,245
Looking for a way out of Middl...
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While I am having a little bit of a problem figuring out exactly what I am seeing there it kinda looks like the crank has knurling? It was pretty much the standard for the factory to knurl the seal surface on the cranks back in the day, BUT they ran rope seals. If that is a knurl you need a rope seal. The lip seal needs a flat surface. Most old used cranks have the knurling worn down by the time we get to them so if the surface is smooth where the seal rides, then a lip seal is OK. At least that has been my experience
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Re: Best Rear Main Seal Type
[Re: IMGTX]
#2853485
11/30/20 05:58 PM
11/30/20 05:58 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526 North Carolina
cjskotni
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
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While I am having a little bit of a problem figuring out exactly what I am seeing there it kinda looks like the crank has knurling? It was pretty much the standard for the factory to knurl the seal surface on the cranks back in the day, BUT they ran rope seals. If that is a knurl you need a rope seal. The lip seal needs a flat surface. Most old used cranks have the knurling worn down by the time we get to them so if the surface is smooth where the seal rides, then a lip seal is OK. At least that has been my experience Never heard this before. True or not?
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Re: Best Rear Main Seal Type
[Re: moparx]
#2853576
11/30/20 09:49 PM
11/30/20 09:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,526 Omaha Ne
TJP
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Omaha Ne
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there is also the rear cam soft plug. that is somewhat uncommon, but it bit me one time long ago. i can't remember what engine it was though. Had a customer several years back that had changed the rear main, pan gasket and even the oil pan several times. first question I asked was who put the oil galley plugs in. He said he hid and SWORE the were sealed and tight. OK. We proceeded to do the rear main and pan gasket 1 more time. Still leaking. After thoroughly brake cleaning the back of the motor and letting it dry, we started it and let it run for several minutes. We shout it off and using mechanical fingers with a small paper tower wadded up, I carefully snuck it up in bellhousing avoiding the bottom and rear main area. When I removed we had oil. I said oil does not run uphill. We pulled the trans and flywheel while he watched. The RR galley plug was only finger tight with no sealant. he left a pan gasket here so i had a sign maker buddy mount the gasket with "THINK OUTSIDE THE PAN JON" LOL Poor guy he said his driveway looked like the EXXON Vladez had been docked there LMAO
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Re: Best Rear Main Seal Type
[Re: cjskotni]
#2853799
12/01/20 02:26 PM
12/01/20 02:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 965 Odessa, Fl
blowndart
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 965
Odessa, Fl
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Can anyone confirm that the crank knurling requires a rope seal? I don't believe that's true. All the BB cranks that I've seen have the knurling. The knurling helps keep the oil from getting past the seal as long as the knurling was done properly and not backwards, where it would direct the oil past the seal.
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Re: Best Rear Main Seal Type
[Re: IMGTX]
#2853869
12/01/20 04:35 PM
12/01/20 04:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442 NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2010
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NW Chicago suburban area
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To clear some technical confusion, the purpose of any rubber seal having helix grooves is to physically throw the oil back in towards the engine... if the seal is installed reverse (with the grooves facing the transmission, it will physically pump oil out of the engine.
It make no difference if the crankshaft has knurls or not... they are there to keep a small amount of oil on the shaft where the seal makes contact.
Rope seals were simple, back in the day, to install and low cost to manufacture... as well as the casting grooves for the seals were not dimensionally held at tight tolerances... where as rubber seals more commonly need a tight fit into their retaining grooves.
I'm a former gasket engineer from a major company... these are common questions being asked.
Mopar Mitch
"Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers!
Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
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