Re: Valve spring pressures and testing
[Re: mopar dave]
#2698512
09/17/19 04:52 PM
09/17/19 04:52 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 12,587 Great Neck,LI,new york
hemi-itis
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 12,587
Great Neck,LI,new york
|
I would call the maker of that cam and find out what it likes. There is no such thing as a "cheap" tester!
HEMI-ITIS has no cure. My condition is fully BLOWN!!
|
|
|
Re: Valve spring pressures and testing
[Re: mopar dave]
#2698598
09/17/19 10:16 PM
09/17/19 10:16 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,711 Portage,michigan
B3422W5
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,711
Portage,michigan
|
Dwayne specced the cam, right? Call him and ask what spring to run on it. I would assume you would have done that already back when you bought the cam?
69 Dart GTS A4 Silver All steel, flat factory hood, 3360race weight 418 BPE factory replacement headed stroker, 565 lift solid cam Best so far, 10.40 @127 1/4 1.41 best 60 foot 6.60 at 103.90 1/8
|
|
|
Re: Valve spring pressures and testing
[Re: mopar dave]
#2698610
09/17/19 11:11 PM
09/17/19 11:11 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
master
|
master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
|
Gonna pull some valve springs and test them. First, my cam is a SFT with .625/.595 actual lift after lash numbers. My current pressures are 145/410 with titanium retainers. Would this be enough? What pressures should I have up to 7000rpm? I need to get a spring tester, which one would you suggest for best accuracy under $200. This cam is in my 511 and is 270@50 on a 110. Unless the core and lifters are special, that's about all I'd go. Porter may say otherwise and I'd listen to him.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
|
|
|
Re: Valve spring pressures and testing
[Re: mopar dave]
#2698632
09/18/19 01:42 AM
09/18/19 01:42 AM
|
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,861 Pattison Texas
CSK
master
|
master
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,861
Pattison Texas
|
We spoke about a lot of things as he gave me a bunch of his time. I can't remember if it was him or someone else saying they thought the valves pressures were on the edge of being too light. I will have to go back and reread some posts and PM's. Dwayne did say to check my pressures thou just to be sure. Anyone use the spring testers you squeeze in a vice? the one I have is junk, not even close.
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI 512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim 2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
|
|
|
Re: Valve spring pressures and testing
[Re: CSK]
#2698642
09/18/19 06:24 AM
09/18/19 06:24 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
|
Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
|
We spoke about a lot of things as he gave me a bunch of his time. I can't remember if it was him or someone else saying they thought the valves pressures were on the edge of being too light. I will have to go back and reread some posts and PM's. Dwayne did say to check my pressures thou just to be sure. Anyone use the spring testers you squeeze in a vice? the one I have is junk, not even close. The first one I bought was rated to 300#. I have a calibrated checking spring and it wasn't even close. The second one I bought from a member here who was selling a "better" version of the same design rated to 600#. It checked fairly accurate the first couple of times I used it. I tried to use it again recently and it has apparently lost its mind and is reading way off. Entirely possible that I did something "wrong" with it, but I still wouldn't purchase another one if they're damaged inadvertently that easily. Don't know what I'm going to buy at this point, considering everything that has a good reputation is in a much higher price range... $400++, from what I saw looking around online last night.
Last edited by BradH; 09/18/19 09:30 AM.
|
|
|
Re: Valve spring pressures and testing
[Re: BradH]
#2698653
09/18/19 07:26 AM
09/18/19 07:26 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,027 Tulsa OK
Bad340fish
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,027
Tulsa OK
|
My Dad has one of the LSM spring testers. Like everything else they have it wasn't cheap but it seems to work very well. It is only meant to do seat pressure though as it doesn't have enough travel to test open pressures.
One interesting thing in the instructions is that you need to tap on the spring lightly with something once you get the height set to relieve any tension between the inner and outer spring, makes a noticeable difference in the reading.
68 Barracuda Formula S 340
|
|
|
Re: Valve spring pressures and testing
[Re: mopar dave]
#2698654
09/18/19 07:40 AM
09/18/19 07:40 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 287 PA
Harry's Taxi 2
enthusiast
|
enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 287
PA
|
We spoke about a lot of things as he gave me a bunch of his time. I can't remember if it was him or someone else saying they thought the valves pressures were on the edge of being too light. I will have to go back and reread some posts and PM's. Dwayne did say to check my pressures thou just to be sure. Anyone use the spring testers you squeeze in a vice? I have a Proform one and compared it to an LSM one and they were very close......within 5lbs if I recall correctly.
'86 Maple Grove KOS Mopar low qualifier......true street legal with no power adders.
NOS-used when losing since 1940.
|
|
|
Re: Valve spring pressures and testing
[Re: mopar dave]
#2698657
09/18/19 08:01 AM
09/18/19 08:01 AM
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
|
Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
|
We spoke about a lot of things as he gave me a bunch of his time. I can't remember if it was him or someone else saying they thought the valves pressures were on the edge of being too light. I will have to go back and reread some posts and PM's. Dwayne did say to check my pressures thou just to be sure. Anyone use the spring testers you squeeze in a vice? I have one.. at first it was way off.. I changed the gauge 3 times to get it right.. make sure there is no air in it.. I have 1 master spring that I use to check the low and high end of the gauge.. you have get a good gauge for it
|
|
|
Re: Valve spring pressures and testing
[Re: BradH]
#2698671
09/18/19 09:58 AM
09/18/19 09:58 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,174 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
|
"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,174
PA.
|
I always wondered if some of you guy shop for the he cheapest Cardiologist and Dentist too. I would rather have a good used tool than a cheap new tool. Lots of deals out there if you dont mind checking around on the Internet
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
|
|
|
Re: Valve spring pressures and testing
[Re: mopar dave]
#2698700
09/18/19 11:22 AM
09/18/19 11:22 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
|
Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
|
yeah, I was looking at the 600# tester by Comp. Thought maybe it might be a good piece. Thanks for clearing this up guys. Looks like Jeg's house-brand testers are identical to what COMP sells, only Jeg's has them for about 1/2 the price. Pay your money and take your chances, I suppose. I don't know if the LSM bench testers are worth the $400+. Everything above that price level is $800 on up, unless you can find a nice used higher-end tester for a good price.
|
|
|
Re: Valve spring pressures and testing
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#2698705
09/18/19 11:55 AM
09/18/19 11:55 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 287 PA
Harry's Taxi 2
enthusiast
|
enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 287
PA
|
I always wondered if some of you guy shop for the he cheapest Cardiologist and Dentist too. I would rather have a good used tool than a cheap new tool. Lots of deals out there if you dont mind checking around on the Internet Maybe because now days in more cases than not the high dollar stuff is the same Chinese crap as the cheap stuff........so why piss away money to say it's a brand name. I agree with you on looking for older used stuff.....you don't realize how crappy some stuff is made today till you get your hands on some older manufactured tools.
'86 Maple Grove KOS Mopar low qualifier......true street legal with no power adders.
NOS-used when losing since 1940.
|
|
|
Re: Valve spring pressures and testing
[Re: BradH]
#2698707
09/18/19 11:58 AM
09/18/19 11:58 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 421 montana
BANDIT
mopar
|
mopar
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 421
montana
|
I’m with DT, very easy to check them regularly on motor with the LSM. I have an old 500# Rimac I use when they are off or to compare a used set. I’ve been offered good money for it, but it will stay bolted to my workbench. I also have the LSM on motor spring swap tools for my -1’s and 572-13’s, will even use them when heads are on bench, way more control over inadvertent stuff flying around shop. Spendier stuff, but has helped in some tight spots and good quality stuff. Jim
64 Dodge Coronet 440. In progress 1998. Dodge Avenger. 8.35@165. 4400 DA 250” Neil and Parks Slip Joint. 7.36@183. 4600 DA 242" Mullis Dragster. 6.90@ 200mph
|
|
|
Re: Valve spring pressures and testing
[Re: mopar dave]
#2700149
09/23/19 02:28 PM
09/23/19 02:28 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,721 Moved to N.E. Tennessee
GomangoCuda
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,721
Moved to N.E. Tennessee
|
Which pressure is most importance, the seat or the open? Which ever one is off by enough to damage the cam or valve train parts. Sorry but if either open or closed pressures are too high or too low then Carnage is the result.
Last edited by GomangoCuda; 09/23/19 02:30 PM.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
|
|
|
Re: Valve spring pressures and testing
[Re: GomangoCuda]
#2700152
09/23/19 02:37 PM
09/23/19 02:37 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,721 Moved to N.E. Tennessee
GomangoCuda
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,721
Moved to N.E. Tennessee
|
Also with that much lift you have to check for coil bind and retainer to valve guide/seal clearance.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
|
|
|
Re: Valve spring pressures and testing
[Re: mopar dave]
#2700263
09/23/19 08:31 PM
09/23/19 08:31 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 12,587 Great Neck,LI,new york
hemi-itis
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 12,587
Great Neck,LI,new york
|
Todd is a well respected member,and I mean him no disrespect,,,,,,,,,but in your location there are several machine shops that could give you a good squeeze,,,,,,and your springs too!
HEMI-ITIS has no cure. My condition is fully BLOWN!!
|
|
|
Re: Valve spring pressures and testing
[Re: mopar dave]
#2700264
09/23/19 08:40 PM
09/23/19 08:40 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206 New York
polyspheric
master
|
master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206
New York
|
Spintron has revealed something not believed possible decades ago: "these 600 lb. spring are permitting the parts to separate at several different RPM levels". Right - not just float at peak RPM. Assuming safe break-in: too little spring is more dangerous than too much. If you gap the parts, they will break.
Boffin Emeritus
|
|
|
Re: Valve spring pressures and testing
[Re: mopar dave]
#2700729
09/25/19 10:39 AM
09/25/19 10:39 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 12,587 Great Neck,LI,new york
hemi-itis
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 12,587
Great Neck,LI,new york
|
Dwayne and Todd and friends. Dwayne spec'd the cam, so I feel confident Todd will get me on the right track with this spring ordeal. Incompetence in many shops and businesses around here is over the top. Doesn't matter what kind of business it is, some people just don't give a sh!t no more and its getting worse. You have who you need and one phone call gets them delivered to your door!
HEMI-ITIS has no cure. My condition is fully BLOWN!!
|
|
|
Re: Valve spring pressures and testing
[Re: mopar dave]
#2700733
09/25/19 10:53 AM
09/25/19 10:53 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,499 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,499
So. Burlington, Vt.
|
Yes, I have a friend that feels I should run more spring pressure. Not that it matters, but he is a Hemi guy, Jim Keys wrench who maintains Jims 68 Hemi cuda super stock car. He has his own factory stock car he runs as well. He runs much more spring pressure on his SFT cams and they live. I just do not want to flatten a cam in this engine. Does he have a good quality spring tester? It’s really quite simple. There is either a valvetrain control problem...... or there isn’t. If there is, you need more spring load, or a different spring altogether....... or lower the engines operating range so you’re not running the motor in the range where the loss of control is occurring. If there isn’t a control problem, you have other issues(or the combo just doesn’t work that well). Obviously, the best way to determine exactly what’s going on is to dyno the motor. That answers (at least) two questions. It will show whether or not there is a valvetrain control issue that’s keeping the motor from realizing it’s potential...... and whether or not it makes enough power to achieve the desired goal as is....... or if more power is needed to get there. I’ve tested many motors........ after the owners had spent thousands and thousands of dollars trying to get their car to run a number that the motor didn’t make enough power to achieve. In most of those cases........ the car was going as quick as it “should”.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
|
|
|
Re: Valve spring pressures and testing
[Re: mopar dave]
#2700800
09/25/19 02:46 PM
09/25/19 02:46 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206 New York
polyspheric
master
|
master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206
New York
|
Sometimes a dyno run will show a narrow band of small spikes at an RPM where nothing should be happening. That's what VT harmonics or weak springs will do. This also happens with pushrod flex, IDK how to distinguish between them. The usual rule is "If you don't have the biggest pushrods that fit, get them".
Boffin Emeritus
|
|
|
Re: Valve spring pressures and testing
[Re: mopar dave]
#2700931
09/25/19 08:42 PM
09/25/19 08:42 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,180 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
|
I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,180
Bend,OR USA
|
Dwayne, my thinking is, you know the cam and Todd knows the springs. So I figure I have the best two guys on this possible problem. As soon as the weather turns here, I will box up 4 springs and send them to Todd for inspection. DON,T do just four, send them all You know Murphy loves messing with us hot rodders and drag racer, don't you One bad spark plug wire can drive you CRAZY
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
|
|
|
Re: Valve spring pressures and testing
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2700933
09/25/19 08:48 PM
09/25/19 08:48 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
|
Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
|
Send 'em all. Dwayne checked a set of mine after a problematic dyno session years ago and found a number of the intake springs had lost a lot of pressure during the tests.
Do you know the advertised specs for your springs?
Last edited by BradH; 09/25/19 08:50 PM.
|
|
|
Re: Valve spring pressures and testing
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2701156
09/26/19 02:59 PM
09/26/19 02:59 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
|
Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
|
I've seen guys remove all 16 springs on the motor by using clothe pins or additional valve seals on them Buy a set of 16 of the soft checking springs and simply swap the real springs out for the checking springs while they're off getting tested. Be aware you need to shop around a bit cuz some of the parts vendors ask as much for 2 springs as others might for a set of 8. Or, if Dwayne suggested only needing to send four, pick 2 intakes & 2 exhausts (which I suspect was your plan) to be able to see if there's a pattern in load degradation between the two sides. So, what pressures & heights are (were?) the springs set up for?
|
|
|
Re: Valve spring pressures and testing
[Re: mopar dave]
#2701470
09/27/19 04:48 PM
09/27/19 04:48 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,499 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,499
So. Burlington, Vt.
|
If you’re good with buying the gas....... go for it.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
|
|
|
Re: Valve spring pressures and testing
[Re: mopar dave]
#2701544
09/27/19 08:32 PM
09/27/19 08:32 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
|
Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
|
Install height per Todd are 1.930 with 145# on the seat and 410# open. Coil binds at 1.200. Weighed one? Over or under 150 grams?
|
|
|
|
|