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Rebuilding factory 383
#266395
03/25/09 08:48 PM
03/25/09 08:48 PM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 583
San Antonio, TX
CurYellowBird
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 583
San Antonio, TX
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I'm in the process of planning out the build on my 1971 Roadrunner. Has numbers matching 383 4 speed motor with all factory parts, minus the carter carb and aluminum radiator(previous owner swap). The question I'm pondering over is should I rebuild the numbers matching 383 motor and 4 speed, or put in a 440 with the additional 4 speed I have so the #'s matching drivetrain won't get worn out or damaged? Would like opinions on the pros and cons to both set ups as well. 
Last edited by Pats71'; 03/30/09 11:49 PM.
Project War Bird:
1971 Plymouth Roadrunner
383 4 speed with air conditioning
GY3 Curious yellow
All original
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: CurYellowBird]
#266396
03/25/09 08:53 PM
03/25/09 08:53 PM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 982
W. Sacto CA. USA
phantomx
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 982
W. Sacto CA. USA
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I don't see a reason to tuck the #s motor/trans away, unless you know you're gonna do something silly and hurt it bad. If you want a 440, go for it. It doesn't make sense to me to tuck away a B and put an RB in its place. Once it is up and running, there is enough difference in parts and fitment that I doubt the 383 would ever find its way back in. If you like the 383, build it and run it.
Travis..
70 GTX project, orig 440-4, 4 spd, track pack, FC7, stripper/street racer special.
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: CurYellowBird]
#266397
03/25/09 08:55 PM
03/25/09 08:55 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,218
Someplace you aren't
SomeCarGuy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,218
Someplace you aren't
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Depends on a few things
-do you already have a spare 383 to rebuild?
-do you care about MPG?
-is one easier to find locally or are you willing to drive to get one?
-do you already have any spare parts for the low deck, like a dizy or aftermarket intake?
I want my fair share
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: SomeCarGuy]
#266398
03/25/09 09:01 PM
03/25/09 09:01 PM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 583
San Antonio, TX
CurYellowBird
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 583
San Antonio, TX
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As of right now I just have the factory 383 4 speed in the car, and the additional 4 speed. I have easy access to a lot of mopar parts and can find a 440 down here in south texas pretty easily. Just want some outside opinions of which motor is better and to stick with factory motor or go all out build on another motor.
Last edited by Pats71'; 03/25/09 09:04 PM.
Project War Bird:
1971 Plymouth Roadrunner
383 4 speed with air conditioning
GY3 Curious yellow
All original
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: CurYellowBird]
#266399
03/25/09 09:02 PM
03/25/09 09:02 PM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 982
W. Sacto CA. USA
phantomx
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 982
W. Sacto CA. USA
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If you're worried about numbers, keep the 383. If you aren't looking to make a buck or don't care what people think, go with the 440 and hold the 383.
Travis..
70 GTX project, orig 440-4, 4 spd, track pack, FC7, stripper/street racer special.
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: HotRodDave]
#266404
03/25/09 09:19 PM
03/25/09 09:19 PM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 583
San Antonio, TX
CurYellowBird
OP
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 583
San Antonio, TX
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No there is nothing wrong with the factory drivetrain whatsoever. The motor and entire car has 100,017 factory miles on it. The only thing we think may be an issue is possibly a burned valve, but other than that the motor starts up no problem. The car was parked in 1977 and has been garage kept ever since, which is what saved the car (no rust). Origionally sold in california, until second owner brought it to dallas and I'm the third owner down here in san antonio.
Last edited by Pats71'; 03/25/09 09:22 PM.
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: quickd100]
#266406
03/25/09 09:40 PM
03/25/09 09:40 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
Rule # 1.....there's no replacement for displacement. Go big or go home. Dave 
440-4 speed and top it off w/ a 6-pack. put the #'s matching stuff in a bag. If somebody tells you "it's not a #'s matching car, you can say "it can be in one weekend".
if you've never had a 440 get ready for some fun. I'm sure John will have something to say here pretty soon.
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#266407
03/25/09 09:58 PM
03/25/09 09:58 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,376
Houston,Tx.
Lee446
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,376
Houston,Tx.
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I build my cars to drive them like they were intended, thrashed on! When I restore a numbers matching car like my 70 GTX, I keep the original engine and trans in the shop and build another so I wont have to worry about damage. I gaurantee, if you have to sell it, having the car with a built engine in it and including the original will not hurt its resale. It also depends on how fast you want to go, if a 13 second ride is good enough, you can get there with a lightly modified 383, if you want 11's or better, go with the 440. My .02 Lee.
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: Triggerfish]
#266411
03/25/09 11:07 PM
03/25/09 11:07 PM
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,949
land of 10,000______'s
BDS871Cuda
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,949
land of 10,000______'s
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I have to side with the (bag it) group. Bag up the # matching parts, oil and spray them up real good so they don't start to rust, and put the parts up on a shelf for a later day. Now, go find a 400 and toss in a 512 kit. Put on some Stealth heads and paint it up like the original 383 was looking. When you are giving rides in it , and boiling the tires in all 4 gears, and they ask you how a 383 makes this much power. You just give them the old  and tell them to shut the f*#! up and hang on!!!  After that's out of your system, which some of us takes years, then put the # matching stuff back in and give it to your kid. If, it's still in one piece!
Snap your neck, mega G-force launch, is all I want!
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: BDS871Cuda]
#266412
03/25/09 11:41 PM
03/25/09 11:41 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041
Lincoln Nebraska
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543 cube 440 source kit in an RB block. The price is the same as other size kits. You'll be glad you did. Just sit on the numbers matching stuff & in your spare time you might search for a # matching carb/radiator(which would not be aluminum) for your stash.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: CurYellowBird]
#266413
03/26/09 12:09 AM
03/26/09 12:09 AM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,587
missouri, USA
moparmojo
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,587
missouri, USA
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A lot of guys, will tell you to go for the bigger motor. Nothing wrong with that. I too am in this position. Build the 383 in the car or spend a bit more and get 57 more cubic inches instantly. What I would really like to know is the general performace gain between the two when you compare a similar performace build up. Cam change, good machine work, decent carb (non stroker) what is the real HP difference...50hp?? Is it worth the extra couple hundred bucks for the block, but need all the little parts you need to purchase because the two motors are slightly different. Lets just say on a basic build up, it might cost you an average of $500 difference between the two. You would think with price difference you could take the extra money and put it into the 383 and make up the difference. Not sure. Bet others have opinions on this. I will say, that most people looking to buy a car would be happy to hear it has a 440 in it. But I wouldn't frown if it had a 383 in it either.
Last edited by moparmojo; 03/26/09 12:11 AM.
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#266416
03/26/09 09:57 AM
03/26/09 09:57 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,047
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,047
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Quote:
Rule # 1.....there's no replacement for displacement. Go big or go home. Dave
440-4 speed and top it off w/ a 6-pack. put the #'s matching stuff in a bag. If somebody tells you "it's not a #'s matching car, you can say "it can be in one weekend".
if you've never had a 440 get ready for some fun. I'm sure John will have something to say here pretty soon.
John usually doesn't say a thing till some DONKEY drags him into it ...
Of course go with the 440 if you can get one and want to use it .
That said if you want the car to look STOCK , get a 400 block , put a longer stroke crank in it , you get the cubes but it will LOOK like a 383 to the BLOWHARD with the 440 you just blew into the weeds . 
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: JohnRR]
#266417
03/26/09 10:14 AM
03/26/09 10:14 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,647
IL
71383beep
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,647
IL
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I would side with the 400 crowd. I built my 383 though and am very happy with it. The thing is most guys in the clubs and such simply cruise there cars around anyways. Very few actually drag race them and it can be pretty risky to go out and be recklass on a back road now-a-days, cops don't let anything slide, soccer moms call the police when they even HEAR your car, and insurance for tickets will skyrocket or be dropped all together. Put simply there is little tolerance for that stuff. Bottom line is I've seen 500+ inch, nitroused, gear driven motors driven around like grandma cars with occasional blasts to show off the goods. Yes they are crazy fast but rarely are they used for their intended purpose.
With that being said a muscle car with a powertrain that you can drive anywhere and pull 12-13 seconds in the quarter mile is pretty darn respectable. That is easily done with a built 383 that can look factory. and you do get the benefit of keeping an allready nicely optioned stock roadrunner...well stock.
Personally I love the idea of a stroked 400 though and make it look like a 383. I have a 400 sitting just for that rainy day.
440's are awesome motors, but I think too often 383's are shelved. My 383 keeps up just fine with a couple of the 440 cars here in town. A lot has to do with the whole combo too...gears, gam, carb, etc. I simple gear change can help a lot actually.
'73 GK6 Challenger Rallye - 340 4-Speed
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: CurYellowBird]
#266418
03/26/09 10:43 AM
03/26/09 10:43 AM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,522
God's Country Maryland
GODSCOUNTRY340
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,522
God's Country Maryland
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There's only going to be ONE numbers matching engine for your car. Store the matching 383, build the 440 and run the "H" out of it without having to worry. If you build the 383 you'll always have that little voice in the back of your head (I have 3 or 4) telling you to ease off the throttle. If you throw a rod through that 383 it's gone, if you throw a rod through the 440 just find another and go at it again.
I love the smell of Deer guts in the morning, it smells like... VICTORY!
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: JohnRR]
#266419
03/26/09 10:52 AM
03/26/09 10:52 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Rule # 1.....there's no replacement for displacement. Go big or go home. Dave
440-4 speed and top it off w/ a 6-pack. put the #'s matching stuff in a bag. If somebody tells you "it's not a #'s matching car, you can say "it can be in one weekend".
if you've never had a 440 get ready for some fun. I'm sure John will have something to say here pretty soon.
John usually doesn't say a thing till some DONKEY drags him into it ...
Of course go with the 440 if you can get one and want to use it .
That said if you want the car to look STOCK , get a 400 block , put a longer stroke crank in it , you get the cubes but it will LOOK like a 383 to the BLOWHARD with the 440 you just blew into the weeds .
there he is.... the 400 route would be fun too. It's all going to cost about the same if you are starting form scratch. Look around and see if you can find a good bottom end and go form there
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: CurYellowBird]
#266421
03/26/09 11:22 AM
03/26/09 11:22 AM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27
Palm Springs, CA
GYM
member
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member
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27
Palm Springs, CA
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Rebuild the original 383. You are 18.
You'll change your mind a lot going forward. That's A-ok. Sell the car as a matching numbers unit at some point and then buy a 440 toy.
The world does not need another hacked out 383 car stuffed with a 440.
'71 GTX 440+6 (Second Owner)
'70 Road Runner 383 4spd (x 2)
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: GYM]
#266422
03/26/09 11:36 AM
03/26/09 11:36 AM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 383
Essex, Ont., Canada
Fishmarket
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 383
Essex, Ont., Canada
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I've got a '71 RR with a 383 and 44000 orig Miles. I rebuilt the #s 383 and stroked it to 432. With stock heads and only a intake manifold change, it made 430 horsepower and 470 torque.
The only thing I would change is using the 4.250" stroke crank and go for 496 cubes. All sleeper.
1972 Plymouth Cuda 340 4 speed
1971 Plymouth Road Runner 383 Auto
1970 Plymouth Duster /6 Auto
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: Fishmarket]
#266423
03/26/09 01:59 PM
03/26/09 01:59 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
70Cuda383
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
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my cuda is a 383. it's going to get a built 440, and I'm gonna paint it blue, and put a stock air cleaner on it with a "383 2bbl" decal.
half the "mopar guys" would have a hard time telling it's an RB block and not a B Block, let alone all the chevy and ford guys.
I had my cuda for 2 years before I could visually identify the difference of a 383 to a 440 by just glancing in the engine bay.
**Photobucket sucks**
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: 70Cuda383]
#266424
03/26/09 02:26 PM
03/26/09 02:26 PM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 583
San Antonio, TX
CurYellowBird
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 583
San Antonio, TX
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The car in the garage is my father's 67' Dart GTS. Has 440 making 650hp, 32in big meats on the back, the works. That's my inheritance once he's long gone, at least thats what he told me. I've been told to use a 400 engine cause its identical to the 383. But I might just rebuild the #'s motor since it will be cheaper. What I'll do is once the car is finished, I'll begin building a second motor, and pick a weekend to swap out motors.
Project War Bird:
1971 Plymouth Roadrunner
383 4 speed with air conditioning
GY3 Curious yellow
All original
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: Stanton]
#266429
03/26/09 07:11 PM
03/26/09 07:11 PM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 583
San Antonio, TX
CurYellowBird
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 583
San Antonio, TX
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The car has a lot of value because of the odd options that make this bird very unique. Yes I know its not 1 of the 55 hemis or a 440+6 car, but you gotta think for a kid my age this isn't a bad find. Here's some of the options the car has in it, just to give you guys a rough idea of what I'm working with here. -Born June 10, 1971 -Taken off the road in 1977 and garaged ever since -383 High perf. motor (4 barrel) (100,017 miles) -4 speed pistol grip -Shifter console, buckets, black interior -3:23 sure grip posi (8 3/4) -Air Conditioning -Manual brakes (drum) with power steering -Origional paint: Curious yellow -Black Canopy Vinyl Top with Black strobe stripe -Origional Dictaphone cassette recorder -Factory Hood racing pins -Factory exhaust (can be re-used) -100% rust free -Has a Clock instead of RPM gauge -Amber turn signal lenses Removed the vinyl top and began body work so she's in solid primer. Ran all possible numbers on this car and it is an all factory car, minus the carb and radiator.        
Last edited by Pats71'; 03/26/09 07:38 PM.
Project War Bird:
1971 Plymouth Roadrunner
383 4 speed with air conditioning
GY3 Curious yellow
All original
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: CurYellowBird]
#266430
03/26/09 07:19 PM
03/26/09 07:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,647
IL
71383beep
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,647
IL
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WOW!
That is a great find man.
Seeing these I definately would lean to keeping it as stock appearing as possible. Either a stroked 400 or build the 383 if it were me.
As you said you allready got your toys for going crazy fast. A built 383 4 speed will be very fun in this car and you can restore it, park it at a show and win some stuff too.
'73 GK6 Challenger Rallye - 340 4-Speed
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: GODSCOUNTRY340]
#266431
03/26/09 07:28 PM
03/26/09 07:28 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,095
Idaho
Runner
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,095
Idaho
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Quote:
There's only going to be ONE numbers matching engine for your car. Store the matching 383, build the 440 and run the "H" out of it without having to worry. If you build the 383 you'll always have that little voice in the back of your head (I have 3 or 4) telling you to ease off the throttle. If you throw a rod through that 383 it's gone, if you throw a rod through the 440 just find another and go at it again.
 except id do a stroker 400. more cubes ans you cant tell the differeance between a 383 and a 400.
i have a bahama yellow 71 roadrunner. i bought a 71 bahama yellow roadrunner as a parts car about 5 years ago to help put our 72 satellite together. the parts car only had a rusted up ashortblock in it and i aways thought it was a 383, one day i started looking at it and it turned out to be a 400 with no vin on it. im pretty sure it was a warrenty motor. i figured it was its destiny to be in a bahama yellow 71 roadrunner so i biult a 452 inch motor out of it and put it in my roadrunner when my 383 ate the cam. my numbers matching 383 is now safe and sound.
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: CurYellowBird]
#266432
03/27/09 09:05 AM
03/27/09 09:05 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,047
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,047
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
The car has a lot of value because of the odd options that make this bird very unique.
It may have value , but you aren't going to retire off the sale of it anytime soon .
oddball options , or lack of don't really add value .
What that car has going for it is the COLOR , the 4 speed with air conditioning and it's original engine .
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: JohnRR]
#266433
03/27/09 04:18 PM
03/27/09 04:18 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 531
Charlotte, NC
Kowal
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 531
Charlotte, NC
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Nice car, but going to cost you a chunk to restore. I wopul suggest that going with the 383 may not be the gutsy way to go but it will cost you less to simply have what you got rebuilt.
'69 Hemi Charger 500, ‘70 U code Challenger R/T (These and a bunch others at www.dkowal426.com) P.J. O'Rouke: "The old car ran perfectly, right up until it didn't."
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: Kowal]
#266434
03/27/09 07:49 PM
03/27/09 07:49 PM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 583
San Antonio, TX
CurYellowBird
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 583
San Antonio, TX
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I have already given it the thought that it would possibly be cheaper to rebuild the factory motor, put in a good cam, and hone or bore out the hi-po manifolds and factory intake to allow for better air flow. Will also port and polish the heads (2.08int., 1.74exh.). Does anyone know if this is the '906' head and if they are good heads?
I want to build this motor up and run real nicely but still have the ability to put a ricer in its place on a rare occasion. Anyone have suggestions for getting a HP 383 to make 400+hp using the "stock" appearing parts such as the intake?
Project War Bird:
1971 Plymouth Roadrunner
383 4 speed with air conditioning
GY3 Curious yellow
All original
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: CurYellowBird]
#266439
03/28/09 06:42 AM
03/28/09 06:42 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 531
Charlotte, NC
Kowal
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 531
Charlotte, NC
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Don't go too far down the depression curve because you don't have '906 heads, for what you are thinking to do other head part numbers will probably work as well since you are going to have them machined. Get the Big Block Mopar book and read up...lots and lots of info in there, including guidelines for cam choices, head mods and rear ends.
Last edited by Kowal; 03/28/09 06:46 AM.
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: CurYellowBird]
#266440
03/28/09 09:27 AM
03/28/09 09:27 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,047
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,047
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
I have already given it the thought that it would possibly be cheaper to rebuild the factory motor, put in a good cam, and hone or bore out the hi-po manifolds and factory intake to allow for better air flow. Will also port and polish the heads (2.08int., 1.74exh.). Does anyone know if this is the '906' head and if they are good heads?
I want to build this motor up and run real nicely but still have the ability to put a ricer in its place on a rare occasion. Anyone have suggestions for getting a HP 383 to make 400+hp using the "stock" appearing parts such as the intake?
the procedure to hone out the manifolds is going to run your over $1000 , the gains will not be worth the cost .
You need compression in that motor and tight quench , neither are you going to get with stock replacement pistons and the 346 heads ...
Good luck ...
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: JohnRR]
#266441
03/28/09 02:16 PM
03/28/09 02:16 PM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 583
San Antonio, TX
CurYellowBird
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 583
San Antonio, TX
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So what do you suggest about the head situation? Should I just find another set of heads or should I just go with larger valves in my 346 heads? Dad's got plenty of books on the mopar motors and what types of engine components will give you in the 1/4.
Project War Bird:
1971 Plymouth Roadrunner
383 4 speed with air conditioning
GY3 Curious yellow
All original
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: CurYellowBird]
#266442
03/28/09 02:38 PM
03/28/09 02:38 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,691
MO
cdp
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,691
MO
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I bought my 71 GTX when I was 17 and it took almost 15 years to finish it because of school, work, etc, etc...
If there is nothing wrong with your 383, then do a basic rebuild and enjoy it. Once other "life" things come along, you could easily lose interest. I'm 35, been there, done that.
I HIGHLY recommend you difine what your real goal here is. A nice driver, fun street car that you can take anywhere or a drag car.
If you work with a stock 383 shortblock that gives you true 9-10:1 compression (decking required) and bolt on a good set of heads that are worked (maybe some Stealths), you'll have all the power you need and still have $$ left to work on the rest of the car. You can get it in the 13's pretty easily with the right choice of parts and still maintaining stock appearance and drivebility with, say a 3.23 or 3.55 gear.
Dropping $5K in a motor just to keep up with the big dogs isn't really a good idea if you intend to sell it in the near future.
The 346 heads have hardened seats from the factory, saving you the extra coin on head work. Drop in some quality oversized valves and springs to match your cam will be a good decision. Maybe some home porting with some templates. Or for around 1000 bucks you could be in with some Stealth heads. 440 source says the heads should be taken to a shop for inspection.
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: cdp]
#266443
03/28/09 04:57 PM
03/28/09 04:57 PM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 583
San Antonio, TX
CurYellowBird
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San Antonio, TX
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All I want is a nice street machine that can get into the low 13's and make it a weekend driver. While I'm in college, I'll come home on the weekends to work on it and my ole man will be working on it during the week. He has the templates to port and polish the heads. I want right around 10:1 compression in the motor and I'll probably just have the factory 3.23 sure grip posi rebuilt just for safety sake. Do the 346 really come with hardened seats from the factory??? I thought they needed hardened seats put in.
Project War Bird:
1971 Plymouth Roadrunner
383 4 speed with air conditioning
GY3 Curious yellow
All original
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: CurYellowBird]
#266444
03/28/09 05:40 PM
03/28/09 05:40 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,691
MO
cdp
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master
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I "think" some did and some didn't. My 71 already had them and had never been apart before I got it. Maybe someone with more experience can chime in. I was thinking 71 or 72 for sure (both used 346's) had the hardened seats. They are not expensive to have put in if need be or you could go with 452's which, for sure, would have them. Bottom line for my case was that I read way too many magazines with all the latest high end build ups and it actually set me back because I wanted to build what I had read. I should have stayed with my set goals, maintained a realistic budget, etc, and I would have saved money and enjoyed the car FAR earlier than before. Your car is an awesome find and looks as though it is very complete. If the shortblock doesn't have many miles on it, you may just want to swap out a set of fresh heads, restore the carb, then move on to the rest of the drivetrain. You could easily spend 15-25K restoring a car nut by nut and bolt by bolt, but then your scared to drive it, thrash on it, and tearing up your hard earned investment/toy. If you bring a set of heads down to 78cc's or find a good used set of 516's, you can up your compression without touching the shortblock. I think you may be surprised how well a stock 383/4spd will run once its tuned properly and everything else in the drivetrain is up to par. It might not be a 13 sec. car stock, but it doen't take much to get into the 13's with a 383 HP and a few mild performance enhancements. Focus on street use, not racing. As there where you'll be enjoying the car the most. 
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: cdp]
#266445
03/30/09 01:27 PM
03/30/09 01:27 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,647
IL
71383beep
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The 346 heads are open chamber heads. The 383 was actually quite lower in compression then advertised.
The easiest way to get compression is go to a closed chamber head. So with that being said it is worth it to spend some time trying to find 516 or 915 heads. The 915's are the better choice, but are a bit more rare and can be more $$. the 516's work fine though.
If you do not go with closed chamber heads then you're left with boutique pistons or a lot of machine work...or both.
Everybody here is trying to help get your goals but you need to be realistic of the costs and effort needed to get there.
'73 GK6 Challenger Rallye - 340 4-Speed
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: 71383beep]
#266448
03/30/09 02:39 PM
03/30/09 02:39 PM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 583
San Antonio, TX
CurYellowBird
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mopar
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mopar
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San Antonio, TX
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I am trying to be very realistic here. I understand the costs that are going to be involved. What you guys have to understand is that my first car and restoration was a chevy. So right now I'm learning the way of mopar from you guys and my dad. He has 516 heads on his 440 so i'm going to talk to him and his buddies and see what they can find for me. Just be patient with me, I want to build a motor the right way and a big block mopar isn't quite the same as a small block chevy. I'm sure that the 3:23 is a good gear but I can probably find a 3:55 no problem. Don't worry about money or effort cause this restoration will be done properly even if i have to sit there with a template and port the heads myself or stay up all night working.
Last edited by Pats71'; 03/30/09 02:41 PM.
Project War Bird:
1971 Plymouth Roadrunner
383 4 speed with air conditioning
GY3 Curious yellow
All original
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: CurYellowBird]
#266449
03/30/09 02:44 PM
03/30/09 02:44 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,047
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
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Quote:
I am trying to be very realistic here. I understand the costs that are going to be involved. What you guys have to understand is that my first car and restoration was a chevy. So right now I'm learning the way of mopar from you guys and my dad. He has 516 heads on his 440 so i'm going to talk to him and his buddies and see what they can find for me. Just be patient with me, I want to build a motor the right way and a big block mopar isn't quite the same as a small block chevy. I'm sure that the 3:23 is a good gear but I can probably find a 3:55 no problem. Don't worry about money or effort cause this restoration will be done properly even if i have to sit there with a template and port the heads myself or stay up all night working.
I wouldn't put alot of faith in the template porting , especially when you are a NOVICE, gains are MINIMAL at best if you don't screw them up .
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: 71383beep]
#266451
03/30/09 06:07 PM
03/30/09 06:07 PM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 583
San Antonio, TX
CurYellowBird
OP
mopar
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mopar
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San Antonio, TX
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I have a tendency to make myself too open and come under fire lol. This motor won't be my first build. The difference I'm realizing between a small block chevy and a big block mopar is that it's a lot easier to get high compression in a sbc than a big block mopar. Dad explained to me the difference between open and closed chamber heads. Now I understand the kidney bean and toilet bowl descriptions  I'm looking at pistons, heads, decking, etc. My overall goal here is to maintain a factory looking engine that is a sleeper making around 425 hp  . When I go to mopar nationals, its not like they're going to ask me to pull off my valve covers so they can run the numbers on my heads. I want the motor to keep the same intake and hi-po manifolds. The previous owner put on a 750 Carter Competition Carb that will work perfectly after a good rebuild. The one part of this car that makes designing this motor difficult is the combination of the four speed and the factory AC compressor. That AC compressor is huge compared to the R134 compressors I've seen. My hope is to keep the factory AC, which makes it that much harder to choose a cam, heads, etc. that will be able to handle the power steering and AC pump. Luckily the car has manual brakes which kinda helps with the process. I'm open for any design suggestions on this motor. Let me make it clear as well that I am NOT going to put a 525+ lift cam and that I'm not building a racing motor.
Project War Bird:
1971 Plymouth Roadrunner
383 4 speed with air conditioning
GY3 Curious yellow
All original
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: CurYellowBird]
#266452
03/30/09 06:20 PM
03/30/09 06:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,047
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
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Quote:
I'm open for any design suggestions on this motor. Let me make it clear as well that I am NOT going to put a 525+ lift cam and that I'm not building a racing motor.
Well then you are living in a fantasy world with a car as big as you are dealing with , you are going to need compression and a cam with duration to get your HP figure and it may not be condusive to running the A/C ... BUILD A 400 BASED STROKER and it will be easy as pie and LOOK STOCK when you open the hood.
As far as the comparison between the SBC and the 383 to get compression it takes the same thing , BIG DOMES and SMALL combustion combustion chambers , the chevy has the small combustion chamber but you need a dome to get 10.0 in that SMALL BORE with the short stroke.
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: JohnRR]
#266453
03/30/09 06:52 PM
03/30/09 06:52 PM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 583
San Antonio, TX
CurYellowBird
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mopar
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mopar
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San Antonio, TX
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Ok yes all motors require the same thing in order to gain compression numbers. I've just heard that it takes a little more work with a big block mopar. That info is coming from a guy who has built these motors since the mid 70's.
Now it cannot be that hard to get 425 hp out of a 383 big block. Plenty of factory big blocks were claimed to produce that much when they were actually making more. I am not going to build a 400 motor unless I really have to. I want to keep the motor the car was born with. I can understand going with closed chamber heads, 484 lift mp cam, and a good set of 3:55 gears. But I'm not going to rebuild a whole 'nother motor if the factory block is in excellent shape.
Last edited by Pats71'; 03/30/09 07:07 PM.
Project War Bird:
1971 Plymouth Roadrunner
383 4 speed with air conditioning
GY3 Curious yellow
All original
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: CurYellowBird]
#266454
03/30/09 07:09 PM
03/30/09 07:09 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,691
MO
cdp
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master
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If you decide to do another motor.....Pick up a Mopar Action "mopar tech special" 1995 where they built a 451/400, 727, in a 72 RR with 3.23 gears. The car licked off a 13.50 in the 1/4. Car had huge amounts of torque. Fully loaded car with A/C. Cam was an MP 284/484 hydralic. You can find this on a CD too by looking at a link here on moparts. http://www.moparaction.com/Tech/archive/Beeper.htmlI don't know how much it would cost to build a stroker 451, but I'd think you could do it pretty cheap with the availability of 400's around and a good used 440 crank. I know there are some PURESTOCK guys running mid 13's with some 383's and 4.10 gears.
Last edited by cdp; 03/30/09 07:10 PM.
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: CurYellowBird]
#266455
03/30/09 09:36 PM
03/30/09 09:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,047
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
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Quote:
Ok yes all motors require the same thing in order to gain compression numbers. I've just heard that it takes a little more work with a big block mopar. That info is coming from a guy who has built these motors since the mid 70's.
Now it cannot be that hard to get 425 hp out of a 383 big block. Plenty of factory big blocks were claimed to produce that much when they were actually making more. I am not going to build a 400 motor unless I really have to. I want to keep the motor the car was born with. I can understand going with closed chamber heads, 484 lift mp cam, and a good set of 3:55 gears. But I'm not going to rebuild a whole 'nother motor if the factory block is in excellent shape.
It's a little harder with a 383 because of the small bore and the SHORT stroke . piece of cake on a 440 , 400 is easier because of the bore and you can put a 440 crank it in then it's a low deck 440 .
Your Goals are CRIPPLED by your RESTRICTIONS on how you want the car to be left as ORIGINAL as possible ...
Good Luck . let us know how you make out .
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: JohnRR]
#266456
03/30/09 10:44 PM
03/30/09 10:44 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,647
IL
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425 hp is decent goal. Now that you know about the benefit of closed chamber versus open chamber you can put a plan together to work. Assume you get the heads your left to pistons and cam really. You won't need anything exotic as far as the valvetrain really. The stock rockers should work fine for 425 hp.
I guess a major limiting factor in terms of stock appearance would be carb, exhaust, and intake. I know the F.A.S.T. guys are runniing stock appearing stuff, but they usually are stroked out to the max which you indicated you're not able to do. With that in mind I am not so sure you'll be able to meet you goals with the stock manifolds and carb. You may need to make some compromises there.
You could run an aftermarket intake and carb. With a painted intake it is hard to tell at a glance and no one really sees the carb...headers are a dead giveaway though.
'73 GK6 Challenger Rallye - 340 4-Speed
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: 71383beep]
#266457
03/30/09 11:34 PM
03/30/09 11:34 PM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 583
San Antonio, TX
CurYellowBird
OP
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OP
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Joined: Feb 2009
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San Antonio, TX
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Well me and the old man just got done arguing over heads and certain choices with this motor. We decided that we can go with the mopar performer intake manifold and it will still maintain stock appearance on the motor. Of course it won't have the cast numbers on it but I'll just tuck the stock manifold away for safe keeping.
We'll rebuild the carter competition carb 750cfm. I'll remove the competition tag off the front of it and it will resemble the carter AVS carb from the factory.
The hi-po manifolds are definately staying because they do flow decent for a factory exhaust manifold compared to a regular exhaust manifold. The beauty is that the factory exhaust on this car is solid as a rock and just needs to be cleaned. The whole exhaust system, factory mufflers and all, is re-usable.
I'm pretty sure that I want to go with the 484 lift mopar purple cam for this motor. The AC pump won't be as much of a strain as I was making it out to be.
Now comes the heads that we spent quite sometime arguing over. His claim is that the 346 heads should work perfectly fine with the proper deck work done. We'll swap out the valves and put in 2.14 valves as a replacement for the 2.08 valves. We have the templates to do a full port and polish job on the heads to give more air flow.
With the ignition system, were going to convert the car to an all electronic ignition system. In order to maintain the 'stock' appearance, we'll tuck away and hide all the aftermarket ignition components.
Now for pistons and rings, his buddy who has a 69' Charger RT SE strongly suggests going with TRW pistons and cast iron rings. He's been running those pistons and rings for a number of years in the same motor and still runs a solid 12.3 in quarter.
Unless I get some judge that is totally anal and studies mopars day and night, I think this car can do really good at shows by maintaining an almost all origional appearance.
Project War Bird:
1971 Plymouth Roadrunner
383 4 speed with air conditioning
GY3 Curious yellow
All original
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: CurYellowBird]
#266458
03/31/09 02:04 PM
03/31/09 02:04 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,647
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71383beep
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Sounds like you're on a path. I still think that a goal of 425 is going to be hard to get with your combo though. For the TRW pistons and compression ratio just show your Dad this page from Campbell motorsports. The compression difference between a closed chamber and open chamber is almost a full point. This is HUGE and makes a big differnce. A thing to keep in mind too is these advertised numbers are average at best. Point is that you need to do some homework. Measure the deck height and cc' the heads to be sure. To make up a full point of compression you will need to take alot off of the heads which messes with intake fit and valvetrain geometry. http://www.campbellenterprises.com/mopar_speed_pro_trw_forged_pistons.htmThe intake manifold is a nice fit. If it's the 2 plane there is not a huge upgrade versus the stock other than weight though. The manifolds should be mgnafluxed (I think that's the term) or magna honed or whatever. There's some companies out there that can clean up the flow by pushing a bunch of molten material through it. Not sure what it exactly is, but I remeber reading about it somewhere... I really don't understand why this is in the restoration forum...sounds performance oriented to me.
'73 GK6 Challenger Rallye - 340 4-Speed
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: 71383beep]
#266459
03/31/09 02:11 PM
03/31/09 02:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
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Quote:
I really don't understand why this is in the restoration forum...sounds performance oriented to me.
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: JohnRR]
#266460
03/31/09 02:47 PM
03/31/09 02:47 PM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 583
San Antonio, TX
CurYellowBird
OP
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Well I had it moved from the question and answer section hoping that some of these restoration guys had ways to up the performance on their motors without having to swap out too many factory pieces. That was the goal was to simply up the perf. without having to do major mods to the existing factory motor. But I'm finding out that that's not possible. Plus I don't see a performance section anywhere on Moparts anyway.
Project War Bird:
1971 Plymouth Roadrunner
383 4 speed with air conditioning
GY3 Curious yellow
All original
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: 71383beep]
#266463
04/01/09 01:01 AM
04/01/09 01:01 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 27,347
Today? Who Knows?
1_WILD_RT
Management Trainee
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Management Trainee
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Today? Who Knows?
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FWIW I think you & your dad both need to read this... BTW the title is Racing Secrets but it covers quench pretty well & that has just as much to do with a street engine... http://racingsecrets.com/article_racing-10.htmlAnd this is a good read too.. http://www.arengineering.com/articles/articleframe.htmlI'm not suggesting you build any particular way, just telling you think about it & learn from others who have made the mistakes, it may cost more but you'll be happy with the build & won't find yourself wanting to do everything over to correct the mistakes you were warned about.. The thing is your listening to your dad (as you should) but he like many of us that played with these old cars wants to build what we built back in the 70's.. Well the fuel isn't as good, & theres been alot of advances in making more power without needing race fuel or some additive... And my final link... http://www.440source.com/
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: 1_WILD_RT]
#266464
04/01/09 01:31 AM
04/01/09 01:31 AM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 583
San Antonio, TX
CurYellowBird
OP
mopar
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OP
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San Antonio, TX
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Well I know his buddy who has been building these engines and continues to build them. He is going to be my main consultant cause the guy knows what to run what with what and knows the entire geometry and science of building an engine. He was the main help in designing my father's 440 and that thing is pushing 650hp on pump gas and dished diamond pistons, but we think his 516 heads make up for it anyway. The guy has his garage filled to the roof in hemi's, 440's, 340's and whatever else the guy has. I'm sure begging for a hemi won't work lol. But from what he said, the hemi was more about pedigree and was a real pain in the a** because it required constant maintenance and timing adjustments. He also suggested building a 400 stroker motor as well. I really need to sit down with him so we can come up with a plan for this rebuild. The reason I'm asking up here for suggestions is because it helps give me ideas and view points from others who have tried this. 
Project War Bird:
1971 Plymouth Roadrunner
383 4 speed with air conditioning
GY3 Curious yellow
All original
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: CurYellowBird]
#266465
04/01/09 03:42 AM
04/01/09 03:42 AM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar
master
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master
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
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my depends on how you plan to use the car? The '71-'74 B-Body cars are pretty heavy, usually at least #3,800. If you want something to just cruse around in and take to car shows the 383 would be fine, but if you plan to drag race the car you will want more cubic inches and probbably be changing alot of parts that will take away from the stock apearance anyhow. Here is the progression I have taken with my 1971 Charger 500 that had the numbers matching 383 4-bbl/auto trans, etc. I started with just a mild rebuild of the stock 383. Used a mild aftermarket cam, and did some mild port work on the heads. At the time I was still using the stock intake, exhaust, carb, converter, 3.23 open diff, etc. The car ran decent but was not really fast. The converter was also too tight for the new cam. I think the car ran 15's at Bandimere (most cars running 15's here can run mid 13's at lower altitude like Topeka.) In this configuration the car was street driven alot, and not raced very often. Anyhow, I messed with headers, different intakes, carbs, and gears which made the car a bit quicker, but now the engine looked vary aftermarket/modified, and with the lower gear (high numerical) and bigger exhaust the highway RPM were much higher and the car much louder. In town, and at the drag strip it was fun, but long 100+ mile trips got annoying. Anyhow, I ended over reving the engine and bending some valve, so I droped in a 451 stroker I built for a different car, and that engine stayed in the car for over 10 years until it broke a valve and messed up the engine. The 451 made way more power than the mild 383, so it was real fun to drive, but also alot more $$$$ than the 383, not to mention I had to install a fuel cell, electric fuel pump, larger fuel lines, Drag Radials, higher stall converter, etc. Being at Bandimere kept the car in the 12's so I did not need to install a roll bar yet, but the car now was starting to become more of a drag car and only driven on the street to car shows, cruses, and for fun weekends. Now I'm building a 500" stroker to put in the car, although I have considered stroking the original 383 and putting the car to more stock appearing/street status, and drop the 500 in the '69 Coronet R/T that the 451 was built for in the first place. Anyhow, I hope that helps?
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: 451Mopar]
#266466
04/03/09 02:18 PM
04/03/09 02:18 PM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 583
San Antonio, TX
CurYellowBird
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San Antonio, TX
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Yes that does help give me some idea of what I want. I'm realizing more and more that I want a car that can get up and go and still have driveability. I spoke to my dad's buddy about designing and planning out the whole build for the engine. He says he already has a set up in mind that uses the 346 heads etc. and almost everything and the motor. The set up he is suggesting will be able to use the factory AC, hi-po manifolds and factory exhaust and push 431 hp and around 440 to 450 ft/lb of torque. Me and dad have been talking a lot about the car cause were in the process of moving within the next two months and he doesn't want me taking anything off the car until the move is done. It's understandable just so we can organize all the pieces, but very frustrating having to wait. Plus I've been looking at how frustrated my dad gets with his 67' Dart GTS. He has a 440 pushing 650hp and he tubbed out the rear and put 32's. His frustration is with how bad the driveability is and trying to work out all the gremlins popping up with the motor. I think my roadrunner will be alot of fun with the set up his friend is suggesting and the car will still turn decent times in the 1/4. Here's the dart:  
Project War Bird:
1971 Plymouth Roadrunner
383 4 speed with air conditioning
GY3 Curious yellow
All original
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: president61]
#266468
04/03/09 11:13 PM
04/03/09 11:13 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,218
Someplace you aren't
SomeCarGuy
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I Live Here
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Posts: 10,218
Someplace you aren't
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The .484 cam is a dinosaur. There are much better grinds out there on the shelf.
You could even pay a little more and get one custom ground.
I want my fair share
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Re: 383 vs. 440
[Re: SomeCarGuy]
#266469
04/04/09 12:55 AM
04/04/09 12:55 AM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 583
San Antonio, TX
CurYellowBird
OP
mopar
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What kind of cam do you recommend ?
Project War Bird:
1971 Plymouth Roadrunner
383 4 speed with air conditioning
GY3 Curious yellow
All original
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There were other issues too, but this was the main one. Another rebuild later after listening to folks on here and getting more involved in the build and the car runs like a champ now.
