Re: Borgeson steering box
[Re: MileHighDart]
#2646494
04/18/19 02:46 PM
04/18/19 02:46 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,498 Omaha Ne
TJP
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,498
Omaha Ne
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Well, i can add a little info to this conversation.
I just installed a borgeson box in my '68 Dart
I decided to pull the trigger on this because of the slop in my original box, and the leaking became a big problem..
Purchased a unit from BAC, seems to be the newer style, its a one piece casting, meaning it doesn't have anything welded to it. It is smaller and lighter, but I still had to bang on my headers in a new spot to get clearance for the Borgeson unit, (dougs headers). Install went well enough, I used BAC's coupler. New box has absolutely no play in the center like my old box, it has a nice feel, nice and firm. No slop, no leaks. Also installed a new Moog pitman arm when I did the box cause its the only component in front end that I had not replaced or upgraded yet.
The problem I'm having is the steering wont return to center by itself after turning. It returns somewhat, but slowly, and not all the way to center. You still have to straighten up by turning the wheel back to center yourself. Kind of annoying to say the least. BAC told me I probably didnt have enough caster. So I went though my alignment last sunday. When I first checked I had 3 degrees of caster. After some adjusting I managed to get 6 degree, thanks to my QA1 upper arms. Old box return to center great with 3 degrees. But adding more caster didn't fix the issue. Maybe slightly better. Sent an email directly to Borgeson, They suggested backing off the adjustment on the top of the box 1/4 turn and see if that fixes it.
Nope, tried 1/4 turn, and then another 1/4 turn, but the problem persists. Just sent an email back to Borgeson again telling them the adjustment didn't work. We'll see what they say.
Welcome to the world of Borgeson close engineering where 90% is good enough. Next thing you'll hear is we've sold hundreds of these and you're the only one having a problem (we really do need a BS smilie) Similar experience/ problems with Eddie Motorsports on their S Drive serpentine BB conversion. Maybe I'm the one's thats wrong in expecting the "kits" to work without a bunch of hair pulling BS
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Re: Borgeson steering box
[Re: krautrock]
#2646684
04/19/19 01:54 AM
04/19/19 01:54 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,798 Lyons, CO
MileHighDart
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,798
Lyons, CO
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is it the photo or is there a bit of an angle at the coupler in the steering shaft? Yes there is actually quite an angle difference between the shaft coming out of the box, and the steering column shaft I emailed Bergman auto craft about this, his answer was that because the box is smaller Than the original the angle is necessary, and his coupler is designed to handle the angle.
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Re: Borgeson steering box
[Re: MileHighDart]
#2646830
04/19/19 12:57 PM
04/19/19 12:57 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442 NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
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I've been tempted to purchase and install ... and try the Borgenson box (and get it through BAC with their coupler, hoses, etc), primarily interested in the reduced weight (~10 lbs?)... but the ratio is only stated at ~14:1... whereas the T/A box with fast ratio long pitman arm (and the C-body longer idler arm... aka "fast ratio matching idler arm)... seems to be the faster setup for quickest steering response. I had my T/A box recently rebuilt by Firm Feel (Stage 3)... still to drive the car as its waiting for the new SB engine.
I've always wondered IF the longer "fast ratio" pitman arm would work with the Borgenson box... and what the ratio would become.. and the resulting steering effect. I want the fastest steering response. (Using a smaller diameter steering wheel also helps.... I use an 11.5" thick deep-dish padded wheel... works great!)
Mopar Mitch
"Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers!
Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
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Re: Borgeson steering box
[Re: Mopar Mitch]
#2647558
04/21/19 01:10 PM
04/21/19 01:10 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,578 sweden
1Fast340
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,578
sweden
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I've been tempted to purchase and install ... and try the Borgenson box (and get it through BAC with their coupler, hoses, etc), primarily interested in the reduced weight (~10 lbs?)... but the ratio is only stated at ~14:1... whereas the T/A box with fast ratio long pitman arm (and the C-body longer idler arm... aka "fast ratio matching idler arm)... seems to be the faster setup for quickest steering response. I had my T/A box recently rebuilt by Firm Feel (Stage 3)... still to drive the car as its waiting for the new SB engine.
I've always wondered IF the longer "fast ratio" pitman arm would work with the Borgenson box... and what the ratio would become.. and the resulting steering effect. I want the fastest steering response. (Using a smaller diameter steering wheel also helps.... I use an 11.5" thick deep-dish padded wheel... works great!) Ok i will admit right a way that i dont have any experience with the Borgeson box.the fast ratio pitman arm or a firm feel box for that mather,but i will throw in a few thoughts from an outside osberver anyway, The longer idler arm and pitmanarm will push your steering linkage rearwards and may create interference with your headers/exhaustpipes just one of those things that may be good to keep an eye on. Also i dont know how those firm feel boxes "feel" but just getting away from that big "dead" spot around center that most stock boxes has should be a great advantage from the borgesonboxes from what i undertsand.
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Re: Borgeson steering box
[Re: AndyF]
#2647644
04/21/19 09:33 PM
04/21/19 09:33 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050 Texas
GoodysGotaCuda
5.7L Hemi, 6spd
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5.7L Hemi, 6spd
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050
Texas
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Sounds great, good to know you are enjoying it. I'm still rounding up the parts for my conversion. I was going to use the Saginaw pump but now I'm considering going with a late model Type II pump instead. I suppose if I'm going to make it modern I should go ahead and make it modern. I've had my share of issues with a Type II pump, but they now seem to be resolved. I ended up going through one generic Speedway motors pump, one junk parts store pump before landing my PSC Motorsports pump that seems to be getting the job done. They are quite particular about their fluid, I use the recommended AC Delco power steering fluid, and nothing else. PSC ball bearing "race" Type II pump with integral reservoir and a Borgeson box. I'd like to add the long arms to the box and idler, the steering is too slow for me. My pump mount design doubles as a torque strap mount as well. [final hose routing is not shown]
Last edited by GoodysGotaCuda; 04/21/19 09:35 PM.
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Re: Borgeson steering box
[Re: AndyF]
#2648286
04/23/19 09:24 PM
04/23/19 09:24 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,450 Michigan
MarkZ
Worthy
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Worthy
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,450
Michigan
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Is there any benefit to going to a type II box over the Saginaw? I'm actually looking at buying a new pump this season and haven't had any luck with junk parts store boxes. Borgeson sells them and I just planned on get a pump from them to match the steering box. They're $350 though and for that I can get the brackets and type II pump from Unisteer.
1987 Fifth Avenue - 512/518/D60
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Re: Borgeson steering box
[Re: MileHighDart]
#2648318
04/23/19 11:37 PM
04/23/19 11:37 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,138 tucson az
frank
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,138
tucson az
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is it the photo or is there a bit of an angle at the coupler in the steering shaft? Yes there is actually quite an angle difference between the shaft coming out of the box, and the steering column shaft I emailed Bergman auto craft about this, his answer was that because the box is smaller Than the original the angle is necessary, and his coupler is designed to handle the angle. The same for the box I put in my Charger. I'm using my Saginaw pump that I already had. Have not driven the car yet but just turning the wheel staticly I could feel a big difference.
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Re: Borgeson steering box
[Re: MarkZ]
#2648330
04/24/19 01:18 AM
04/24/19 01:18 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,074 Oregon
AndyF
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,074
Oregon
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Is there any benefit to going to a type II box over the Saginaw? I'm actually looking at buying a new pump this season and haven't had any luck with junk parts store boxes. Borgeson sells them and I just planned on get a pump from them to match the steering box. They're $350 though and for that I can get the brackets and type II pump from Unisteer. The Type II box is lighter and more popular with the aftermarket than the Saginaw pump. I also think it looks better. I can't tell you on performance since I don't have any experience yet with either box. I think the Saginaw pump works okay but it doesn't seem to be the hot setup for the road race guys. They all seem to be using the Type II pump these days. So for a street car I think the Saginaw probably works just fine. The Saginaw is also dirt cheap to buy and rebuild (if you have the proper tools). Personally I think I'll end up with the Type II pump on my car but that is because I'm more Mod than Resto. I already have the EFI, Porsche brakes, Toyota alternator, digital dash thing going on. Might as well keep it rolling with a Type II PS pump........
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