Re: red line dash ammeter by pass
[Re: moparpro]
#2622535
02/17/19 02:48 PM
02/17/19 02:48 PM
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jbc426
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Look at the back of your Rallye Dash cluster. There are two threaded studs that the amp gauge is hooked up with. You can locate it by looking where the amp gauge is mounted and locating the two threaded studs that emerge on the back of it.
I bypassed my amp gauge by simply bolting all the positive connections to the input side of the amp gauge stud. I could also have left it wired as the factory did it, as I do not have any high amp loads added to the car.
The main problem with Mopar electrical systems is that the power from the alternator passes through the bulkhead, through the amp gauge and back out the bulkhead to the starter relay and then on to the battery.
That's a lot of amps going through a less than ideal connection at the bulk head. Age, corrosion, water and dirt can easily penetrate the bulk head connectors leading to a build up of resistance = heat at the connectors.
Many nice Mopars went up in flames as a result of this dubious connection.
A quick and easy remedy for this issue is to add a fuse-protected, heavier gauge cable from the alternator directly to the battery under the hood. You can also clean all your bulkhead connectors and seal them up with dielectric grease to keep moisture and dirt out. It's not that easy to do well, as these are small parts with male and female connectors.
There are other methods explained in greater detail on Madd Electrics website.
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's 1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
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Re: red line dash ammeter by pass
[Re: moparpro]
#2622901
02/18/19 01:47 PM
02/18/19 01:47 PM
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challenger70
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anyone know what process they use to by pass ammeter.have anyone here had it done by them. i have a rally dash. thanks I had redline convert mine to a volt guage and just connected the 2 sides of the guage wires together. Along with the rest of the bypss procedure.
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Re: red line dash ammeter by pass
[Re: moparpro]
#2623268
02/19/19 12:28 PM
02/19/19 12:28 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095 Valencia, España
NachoRT74
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what alternator would you recommed 69 dodge 383 eng. thanks anyone able to feed all the car load demand at the minimun speed as posible... better if at iddle. I use to set the 45 amps borderline on non AC cars and 50-55 amps on AC cars, but AT IDDLE. However I set these borderlines, the more, the better. I'm a stockish guy. Tuff Stuff offers good 100 amps options. Recently PowerMaster is offering good options on stock units rated 95 amps recently ( rated 65 amps at iddle ) and ONCE AGAIN... no need to bypass the ammeter. Trust me everything will be safe for the ammeter with a powerfull alt. Just need to bypass bulkhead throught the firewall OR if stock paths are in good conditions, just add a parallel path to the existant ones Just read my thread about. OR: http://www.heritech.org/cuda/Charge.htmlMy car even is parted on a deep body job, has being a DAILY driver for years and I made this upgrade. Never have to worry anymore and I trust on my ammeter reading, which is85% of the time death centered. Deatn centered it means no load goping through. No load, no heat. OF COURSE you need to check your ammeter conditions. After 50 years you can find anything. Be sure studs are tight to the ammeter internal shunt, isolations sheets to the cluster housing are perfect and all terminals clean and tight. Electrical system needs to be checked just like your front suspension or timming setup. But EEEVERYBODY forget this, and then blame to the ammeter or whatever else
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: red line dash ammeter by pass
[Re: moparpro]
#2623312
02/19/19 02:23 PM
02/19/19 02:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2006
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68Cbarge
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Here's how I bypass the Ammeter without ripping the dash apart. From the Battery stud back of alternator run a wire to the Battery stud of Starter relay using a fusible link at the relay. I use 10 gauge wire with a 14 gauge fusible link. Done. Takes 50% load away from the ammeter gauge and if ever the gauge craps out you can still drive the car. Bonus is should the fields in the alternator reverse polarity,the fusible link will pop and not melt down the dash and wiring of car. Optional is adding a voltmeter simply using a switch 12 volt source and ground anywhere to t he dash or whatever.
'68 Newport Custom Barge on a Budget!! BOAB 1973 Satellite WAGON! 318- 3 on the tree!! 2008 Chrysler 300c HEMI!
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Re: red line dash ammeter by pass
[Re: moparpro]
#2623316
02/19/19 02:32 PM
02/19/19 02:32 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,277 West Coast, USA
jbc426
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Which alternator? It depends on the amp load you want to power. Mopar and Denso alternators make a relatively low amount of power at idle. Like Nacho says, only about 65 amps at the most, which I find to be a generous number for that alternator at idle.
If you have a lot of electrical add-ons like a powerful fuel pump, high-powered stereo, A/C, Power windows and a adequate electric fan or fans; you can easily exceed 65 amps.
I had such add ons in my '70 E-Body. I bolted on a GM CS140 alternator that had been rewound and upgraded with heavy duty bridge rectifiers. It puts out over 100 amps at a low idle, and well over 200 amps at a fast idle. It is self regulating and very reliable. Here's a photo of it installed above my A/C compressor. Of course my wiring was upgraded to handle the amp load too.
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's 1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
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Re: red line dash ammeter by pass
[Re: moparx]
#2623353
02/19/19 03:32 PM
02/19/19 03:32 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095 Valencia, España
NachoRT74
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nacho, if wiring from scratch [think hotrod, custom harness, no bulkhead plugs], how would you tie in an amp meter ? same as the factory method plus using the bypass ? volt gauge will also be in use. if no bulkhead, just replicate same stock config. All loads ( but starter motor ) must be taken from alt side of the ammeter game. This is if a full load ammeter, because shunted ammeters are quite diff. Dunno if you are using stock or aftermarket ammeter
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: red line dash ammeter by pass
[Re: moparpro]
#2623356
02/19/19 03:39 PM
02/19/19 03:39 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095 Valencia, España
NachoRT74
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dogdays my friend, I'm gonna share this experience about Amm vs Volt.
Once I got a misterious discharging reading did need to rev it up quite high to be able to get charge reading. Took a multitester and while idling, getting discharge, the Multitester got me around 18-20 volts!!! how that was posible ?
then to be sure, I disconected the batt and engine stalled.
So which reading was the truth one ? Voltage or Amperage ? Both were truth, but the batt was getting discharged with an alt not able to hold the engine on, so the real deal was the ammeter reading.
The fail was one of the rotor vent vanes meeting with diodes bank/stator terminal while spining, causing a short.
If I had a voltimeter my mind was told me I was overcharging and not discharging! True both told me something was wrong, but the reality was the discharge deal.
EDITING to add info: the ammeter is a magnetic gauge, doesn't read volñtage based on a resistance. The needle moves when gets magnetic fields variation with the load flow.
Last edited by NachoRT74; 02/19/19 07:05 PM.
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: red line dash ammeter by pass
[Re: moparpro]
#2623403
02/19/19 06:31 PM
02/19/19 06:31 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095 Valencia, España
NachoRT74
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actually the fuse link must be rated to the nominal car load and not the alt. The fuse link will blown on a short and the ONLY device able to feed a short is the batt not the alt.
If your car would get an alt without a batt, the engine will stall when a short comes in.
Several misconceptions about this, starting with the WRONG name given to the ammeter as ALTERNATOR gauge, where really is a BATTERY gauge. An Alt will never discharge because is not an accumulator. An alt is able toi feed or not, but never get Charged or Discharged. The batt IS the device which gets Charge or Discharge.
If you start up the engine and disconect the alt, the ammeter will show discharge. But if you disconect the batt, the ammeter will show NOTHING, simply a death centered needle, while your alt is sourcing the car/engine. That t5ells you what really mesures the ammeter.
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: red line dash ammeter by pass
[Re: topside]
#2623406
02/19/19 06:41 PM
02/19/19 06:41 PM
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68Cbarge
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I like the method of adding a fused wire from the alternator to the starter relay; retains a stock look. I prefer fuses to fusible links. What size fuse would be best? rated @ alternator amperage, I'd guess? If I were to use fuses I recommend 50 amp maxi-fuse. Did that with my 83 Ramcharger The fusible link "looks" stock and when at the starter relay,easy to get to just in case.Done to all my other Mopars 1966 and up.
Last edited by 68Cbarge; 02/19/19 06:42 PM.
'68 Newport Custom Barge on a Budget!! BOAB 1973 Satellite WAGON! 318- 3 on the tree!! 2008 Chrysler 300c HEMI!
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Re: red line dash ammeter by pass
[Re: moparpro]
#2623414
02/19/19 07:16 PM
02/19/19 07:16 PM
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there are about a dozen different ways of measuring current and displaying it on a gauge we'd call an ammeter.
ONE of those is to measure the voltage drop across a known resistor to infer amperage. Mopar eventually went to that style but not during the musclecar years.
the one we are familiar with uses magnetic fields.
there is nothing inherently wrong with an ammeter, however is may work. But the implementation does matter. Chrysler never built to last 50+ years so it is not surprising things need attention over time. All electrical connections need to be clean and tight. If they are not then heat gets generated. the more current flowing through that connection the hotter it will get.
Care to guess where the highest current flow is? Not the ammeter if you said that, the starter. That said, the ammeter does routinely get large amounts of current flowing through it so if those connections are not clean and tight then you will have heat related damage, maybe even a fire. I don't like that the charging feed into and out of the passenger compartment goes thru relatively small packard connectors that are exposed to the element. Clean them, use dielectric grease to protect them.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.
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Re: red line dash ammeter by pass
[Re: moparpro]
#2623422
02/19/19 07:37 PM
02/19/19 07:37 PM
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Joined: Jan 2006
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68Cbarge
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In addition to the bypass under the hood,I ran a wire from the starter relay with a fusible link again,and directly hooked up to the ammeter gauge. This bypasses the bulkhead connector. Next wire is from the discharge side of ammeter to the battery stud of alternator. This still gives the ignition switch power and save your Nike walking shoes for another day. I agree this makes the ammeter reading not accurate but still gives a "rough" idea. I typically use a multi-meter to test the charging system if I think I have a problem.
I run a Powermaster 70 Amp roundback alternator with an Autozone VR706 electronic voltage regulator in my 68 Newport no problems.
Running relays for the headlights and converting all other lights to LED helps as well. Hope this helps.
'68 Newport Custom Barge on a Budget!! BOAB 1973 Satellite WAGON! 318- 3 on the tree!! 2008 Chrysler 300c HEMI!
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Re: red line dash ammeter by pass
[Re: moparpro]
#2623524
02/20/19 12:10 AM
02/20/19 12:10 AM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095 Valencia, España
NachoRT74
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Ammeter won't get any current going through if the battery doesn't get discharged. Said that with a good alt, after you cranked up your engine to start it up, the alt ( a good one ) will recharge it in a minute or so depending on your battery reserve capacity and how long it took the cranking to start up the engine. Once is charged, you will get a death centered amm needle, once again, with the propper alt on car, able to feed the car demands. Once made thay you take care of the weakness of bulkhead and you are done! won't have to worry on anything else not even the ammeter itself. No reading on ammeter ( death centered needle ) no load going throught. No load there is IMPOSIBLE to get any kind of heating process. Of course, you need to keep all terminals clean and tight everywhere. But STILL with terminals loosen at ammeter studs, if the alternator is enough to feed everything, the power will never go through because all the power requirements are BEFORE the amm when alt is suplying. YOU CAN NOT to keep them loose because at some moment the loads will go throught, i.e. while cranking, to feed ign system ( not starter motor ), when you press pedal brakes or turning lights because Charging system is slower than the loads being sucked so batt will feed these for less than a second on first impulse, or the recharging process after crank up the engine, however STILL with these loosen, with a good alt, the ammeter won't get loads to heat it
Please don't discuss me this anymore because I have lived with this upgrade for some years with my car being a driver and using A/C quite often! I have seen this on my car daaaaay after daaaaay for seeeeveral years.
I think may have even a vid of my ammeter after crank up the engine and how it gets centered still adding loads ( lights and stuff like that )
What Chrysler made after 1975 is replace the full load ammeter for a shunted ammeter system which it works like somehow of remote ammeter. The ammeter got an amplifier coil to increase magnetic field able to move the needle with a minimal load going parallel to a shunt wire ( on engine bay ) offering a slight resistance to the charging system which allowed to get some minimal load going through the shunted ammeter. But not a resistor on ammeter really.
Ammeter NEVER READS VOLTAGE... just magnetic fields variation caused by electrons which feed the load requirements
Last edited by NachoRT74; 02/20/19 12:24 AM.
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: red line dash ammeter by pass
[Re: NachoRT74]
#2623532
02/20/19 12:32 AM
02/20/19 12:32 AM
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Posts: 14,889 up yours
Supercuda
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What Chrysler made after 1975 is replace the full load ammeter for a shunted ammeter system which it works like somehow of remote ammeter. The ammeter got an amplifier coil to increase magnetic field able to move the needle with a minimal load going parallel to a shunt wire ( on engine bay ) offering a slight resistance to the charging system which allowed to get some minimal load going through the shunted ammeter. But not a resistor on ammeter really.
Ammeter NEVER READS VOLTAGE... just magnetic fields variation caused by electrons which feed the load requirements
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunt_(electrical)#Use_in_current_measuring "An ammeter shunt allows the measurement of current values too large to be directly measured by a particular ammeter. In this case, a separate shunt, a resistor of very low but accurately known resistance, is placed in parallel with a voltmeter, so that all of the current to be measured will flow through the shunt. The resistance is chosen so that the resultant voltage drop is measurable, but low enough not to disrupt the circuit. The voltage across the shunt is proportional to the current flowing through it, and so the measured voltage can be scaled to directly display the current value." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Current_sensing#Shunt_resistors"Ohm's Law is the observation that the voltage drop across a resistor is proportional to the current going through it. This relationship can be used to sense currents. Sensors based on this simple relationship are well known for their lower costs, and reliability due to this simple principle. "
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.
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Re: red line dash ammeter by pass
[Re: Supercuda]
#2623603
02/20/19 05:32 AM
02/20/19 05:32 AM
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PhillyRag
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What Chrysler made after 1975 is replace the full load ammeter for a shunted ammeter system which it works like somehow of remote ammeter. The ammeter got an amplifier coil to increase magnetic field able to move the needle with a minimal load going parallel to a shunt wire ( on engine bay ) offering a slight resistance to the charging system which allowed to get some minimal load going through the shunted ammeter. But not a resistor on ammeter really.
Ammeter NEVER READS VOLTAGE... just magnetic fields variation caused by electrons which feed the load requirements
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunt_(electrical)#Use_in_current_measuring "An ammeter shunt allows the measurement of current values too large to be directly measured by a particular ammeter. In this case, a separate shunt, a resistor of very low but accurately known resistance, is placed in parallel with a voltmeter, so that all of the current to be measured will flow through the shunt. The resistance is chosen so that the resultant voltage drop is measurable, but low enough not to disrupt the circuit. The voltage across the shunt is proportional to the current flowing through it, and so the measured voltage can be scaled to directly display the current value." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Current_sensing#Shunt_resistors"Ohm's Law is the observation that the voltage drop across a resistor is proportional to the current going through it. This relationship can be used to sense currents. Sensors based on this simple relationship are well known for their lower costs, and reliability due to this simple principle. " Nacho understands very well differences between types of ammeters. One is a Direct reading, other is not (i.e. Shunt). A shunt ammeter IS a volt meter which INDIRECTLY indicates amperage (ie via voltage drop across shunt).
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Re: red line dash ammeter by pass
[Re: moparpro]
#2623618
02/20/19 10:21 AM
02/20/19 10:21 AM
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NachoRT74
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Maybe if you get an ammeter going from 0 up to X value, can be measured in Volts and reflected as ammeter due the proportionally between volts and amps with a known resistance value ( Ohms law ). This can be measured getting just one power source and one device sucking it on the opposite side BUT if you ask me not with an ammeter reading Charge and Discharge with two power sources one on each side being one an acumulator and the other one a generator, with needle in center, because you can't read negative voltages. There is or there is not voltage, but never negative voltage able to sway the needle to the reverse side. Voltage is allways present in all the system without care where is going the current.
You have allways same voltage on all the system, but not necessarily current if there is not devices sucking it.
Our car ammeters are able to read what is coming or going from/to batt, and thats allways a positive flow, in one or other direction. An ammeter based on volts measurement won't be able to make that.
That's at least what I can see. I have a shunt ammeter in hands ( M body Lebaron ) and is exactly the same piece ( but smaller pieces ) than a full load unit with just the coil installed to amplify the fields able to move the needle, so is still magnetic device. Needle still mounted on a brass counterweight what will move in one or the other direction according to magnetic field variation given by the current flow.
Anyway, the diff ammeter design systems are not related to how to make efficiently work the charging system on our cars still keeping the stock system safe without need to bypass more than the weakness of terminals. Packard terminal weakness are there with ANY alternator you use, because no matter which one is the source ( Batt or alt ) if you car sucks 40 amps, will suck it from any source available. If your batt gets discharged, then your car will become on a maybe 60 amps sucker from alt and thats what we have to save with agood alt, to never get a discharged batt. This is so real, than our cars got melted those terminals with low capacity alts. The alt upgrade is just to keep safe the ammeter from loads coming and going simply eliminating the batt as a sucking device of the game. The bulkhead bypass OR doubling the paths will increase the handling capacity of the system to feed it, and still able to do it if batt gets discharged at certain point.
Is like a baby sucking milk! If is hungry, will cry and suck untill gets satisfied, no matter if from a boob or a bottle, maybe two bottles or both boobs. But it needs to get satisfied. If you have twins will be worst, so, keep safe from get the second baby sucking ( batt ) and will need less milk and less stress
Last edited by NachoRT74; 02/21/19 05:53 PM.
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: red line dash ammeter by pass
[Re: moparpro]
#2623931
02/20/19 09:59 PM
02/20/19 09:59 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
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Mattax
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what alternator would you recommed 69 dodge 383 eng. thanks Stock? Stock as in points ignition, mechanical fuel pump, engine driven fans, etc. If so, there is very little electric load. A stock alternator will do OK. Aftermarket most will be called "60 amp" or something close to that. With the headlights on at a stop, especially with an automatic, you may see the battery take over. If that bothers you, or this is frequently the situation, then get a 'squareback' alternator. The squarebacks of the same 'rating' generally provide a bit more current at idle speeds. A squareback will need one field terminal grounded since your car has the positive controlling voltage regulator. If the car has A/C and you do a a lot of idling with it on, or with lights and heater and wipers on, then prob want an alternator with more output at idle. Nacho and others already covered this. nacho, if wiring from scratch [think hotrod, custom harness, no bulkhead plugs], how would you tie in an amp meter ? same as the factory method plus using the bypass ? volt gauge will also be in use. Well I'm not Nacho but IMO it all depends on what you are building in terms of electric loads and supply. A system with internally shunted ammeter really requires just one fusible link. This means the alternator's output doesn't have to run through a restriction. However if the hot rod is going to be running equipment off of the battery for some of the time, such as EFI, electric pump, electric fans, then a design with an internally shunted ammeter doesn't make sense. actually the fuse link must be rated to the nominal car load and not the alt Exactly. Whether its a fuse, breaker, or fusible link it must be sized to be weaker than the weakest unprotected wire or device downstream. The fusible links are mostly to protect against the battery burning everything between it and a short. The advantage of a link is it can handle moderately high loads. For exampple, immediately after starting the battery may draw 30 - 40 amps for a few seconds. Maybe Nacho will find that video. Is like a baby sucking milk! If is hungry, will cry and suck untill gets satisfied, A good analogy! Here's a time lapse sequence of charging a battery that is around 50% low. Notice how much it sucks when supplied at 14.2 Volts. Fortunately with a charger we can reduce that. https://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/thr...post-1972341430This is why recharging very low batteries can hurt a lot of stuff, not just the wiring between the alternator and the battery. It's also hard on the alternator wiring and can cook the battery.
Last edited by Mattax; 02/20/19 10:03 PM.
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Re: red line dash ammeter by pass
[Re: R/T1968R/T]
#2623992
02/20/19 11:55 PM
02/20/19 11:55 PM
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Posts: 6,095 Valencia, España
NachoRT74
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The welded spice where they connect together inside the car is the main distribution point.
and this TRUE statement is why I hate THIS link: where they say AS A FALSE STATEMENT with their job the main splice is being moved out to the starter relay stud... WHICH IS NOT
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: red line dash ammeter by pass
[Re: NachoRT74]
#2624022
02/21/19 12:34 AM
02/21/19 12:34 AM
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Mattax
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The welded spice where they connect together inside the car is the main distribution point.
and this TRUE statement is why I hate THIS link: where they say AS A FALSE STATEMENT with their job the main splice is being moved out to the starter relay stud... WHICH IS NOT You can say that again. But it gets worse. They recommend a 'fix' that routes all of the power to the run the car through two fusible links in series. The only thing it addresses, although poorly, is the problem created when running a winch or a plow. (These are usuallly tapped in at the battery because they draw so much power)
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Re: red line dash ammeter by pass
[Re: Mattax]
#2624127
02/21/19 11:35 AM
02/21/19 11:35 AM
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NachoRT74
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It is true that they have moved the location of both feed lines to meet at the starter relay stud. So that becomes the primary feed point for whichever is supplying power. But it all still needs to get to the original main splice. So it does not good unless the main goal is charging batteries. but that becomes it on a buss or junction point. Just 3 feet more and will reach the batt if relay is at firewall LOL and just one foot being at a side of the batt
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: red line dash ammeter by pass
[Re: Mattax]
#2624211
02/21/19 02:40 PM
02/21/19 02:40 PM
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TJP
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Here's a typical 60s Chryco wiring strategy stripped down to the main feeds and their connections.
There is one feed from the alternator (starts with wire R6) There is one feed from the battery (starts with wire A1A)
Power will come from either the Battery or the Alternator and then go to where ever a circuit is complete.
The welded spice where they connect together inside the car is the main distribution point.
Another question on the same subject. Looking at Mattax's 1st (simplified) diagram, Shouldn't the alternator battery wire/circuit also be fused ?? Lets say the car is driving down the road and there is a short that blows the fusible link. That will isolate the battery, but the alternator will continue to back feed the short as long as the engine stays running. That in turn would cause a meltdown, Correct ?? or am I missing something
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Re: red line dash ammeter by pass
[Re: TJP]
#2624251
02/21/19 03:48 PM
02/21/19 03:48 PM
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Mattax
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Phila. Pa.
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Here's a typical 60s Chryco wiring strategy stripped down to the main feeds and their connections.
There is one feed from the alternator (starts with wire R6) There is one feed from the battery (starts with wire A1A)
Power will come from either the Battery or the Alternator and then go to where ever a circuit is complete.
The welded spice where they connect together inside the car is the main distribution point.
Another question on the same subject. Looking at Mattax's 1st (simplified) diagram, Shouldn't the alternator battery wire/circuit also be fused ?? Lets say the car is driving down the road and there is a short that blows the fusible link. That will isolate the battery, but the alternator will continue to back feed the short as long as the engine stays running. That in turn would cause a meltdown, Correct ?? or am I missing something Lets draw that out. Added the field supply and ignition to show the power keeping things running. Engine is running with power coming from the alternator at 14 volts. Battery is charged. What happens when there is a short in wire connected to the main splice? Lets say the wire to the headlight switch rubs against a brace long enough the insulation gets worn through.
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Re: red line dash ammeter by pass
[Re: TJP]
#2624257
02/21/19 04:06 PM
02/21/19 04:06 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095 Valencia, España
NachoRT74
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095
Valencia, España
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Another question on the same subject. Looking at Mattax's 1st (simplified) diagram, Shouldn't the alternator battery wire/circuit also be fused ?? Lets say the car is driving down the road and there is a short that blows the fusible link. That will isolate the battery, but the alternator will continue to back feed the short as long as the engine stays running. That in turn would cause a meltdown, Correct ?? or am I missing something as I already have told previously. The only power source able to feed a short is the battery. If the fuse link blows the current coming from batt on a short, once fuse blows if short still goes on, the engine will stall. Any short will take all the power, so the regulator won't get enough power to feed the alternator and keep the system going. you can try it easily. Crank up the engine, disconect the bat and make a short anywhere... try it between alt stud and body for easier experiment and safer for the rest of the wiring. Engine will stall and with batt disconected, fuse link won't blow because there is not a source there to blow it up, but engine will stall
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: red line dash ammeter by pass
[Re: NachoRT74]
#2624287
02/21/19 04:49 PM
02/21/19 04:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,350 Omaha Ne
TJP
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,350
Omaha Ne
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Nacho, Hola soy la esposa de TJP. Yo vivio en Lima por tres anos. El dice que tu sabes mucho y es un buen amigo. Thanks Nacho,
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Re: red line dash ammeter by pass
[Re: NachoRT74]
#2624297
02/21/19 05:15 PM
02/21/19 05:15 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645 Phila. Pa.
Mattax
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Feb 2010
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Phila. Pa.
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Any short will take all the power, so the regulator won't get enough power to feed the alternator and keep the system going. Same with the engine's ignition. (So even with a self-feeding alternator, the engine will almost always die.) Here's the graphic sequence of "Any short will take all the power" In fact most likely the power from the alternator is first to be diverted because it is at higher voltage. But this only momentary.
Short, first secondShort before link burns through
Last edited by Mattax; 02/21/19 05:23 PM.
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Re: red line dash ammeter by pass
[Re: TJP]
#2624305
02/21/19 05:46 PM
02/21/19 05:46 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095 Valencia, España
NachoRT74
master
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master
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Nacho, Hola soy la esposa de TJP. Yo vivio en Lima por tres anos. El dice que tu sabes mucho y es un buen amigo. Thanks Nacho, Gracias! La verdad no es que sepa MUCHO, pero comparto lo que he aprendido con todos los que quieran. Trato de ser buen amigo con todos! nuevamente, gracias! Any short will take all the power, so the regulator won't get enough power to feed the alternator and keep the system going. Same with the engine's ignition. (So even with a self-feeding alternator, the engine will almost always die.) True, forgot about the self-excited alternators
Last edited by NachoRT74; 02/21/19 05:47 PM.
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: red line dash ammeter by pass
[Re: Mattax]
#2624313
02/21/19 05:57 PM
02/21/19 05:57 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095 Valencia, España
NachoRT74
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095
Valencia, España
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what alternator would you recommed 69 dodge 383 eng. thanks Stock? Stock as in points ignition, mechanical fuel pump, engine driven fans, etc. If so, there is very little electric load. A stock alternator will do OK. Aftermarket most will be called "60 amp" or something close to that. With the headlights on at a stop, especially with an automatic, you may see the battery take over. If that bothers you, or this is frequently the situation, then get a 'squareback' alternator. The squarebacks of the same 'rating' generally provide a bit more current at idle speeds. A squareback will need one field terminal grounded since your car has the positive controlling voltage regulator. If the car has A/C and you do a a lot of idling with it on, or with lights and heater and wipers on, then prob want an alternator with more output at idle. Nacho and others already covered this. Sock alt but later, not the 69 one which barelly gets 22-28 amps at iddle. As I mentioned, any alt able to feed at least 45 amps at iddle. The more, the better, but on a basic car, no les than 45 amps iddling.
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: red line dash ammeter by pass
[Re: moparpro]
#2624363
02/21/19 07:52 PM
02/21/19 07:52 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095 Valencia, España
NachoRT74
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master
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Valencia, España
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well, not in my experience LOL. I have being able to recharge a death battery with my alt iddling and ammeter marking maybe 20 amps on charge side for about 20 minutes ( with a 80 amps alt ), and still quite cold studs. I was able to rev it up and needle still at same mark. Not on first 3 to 5 minutes thought. Remember, as you know, amperes can't be pushed in, so the batt will suck what it needs at the speed he can get recharged. You can't force to the acid to be faster sucking power than it can.
What I did on the first 5 minutes is turn on the lights to keep safer the ammeter.
and, remember the main and initial problem was just right the stock alts outputs back in the days.
would need to consider the pulley size too, because not every iddle speed could be the same speed to the alt
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: red line dash ammeter by pass
[Re: NachoRT74]
#2624674
02/22/19 01:46 PM
02/22/19 01:46 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645 Phila. Pa.
Mattax
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
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Nacho, Just because you got away with it does not make it good all the time. I have too, but with my agm it got hot, and later the stator failed. Maybe related, maybe not. That story I posted here: https://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/threads/charging-battery-with-alternator-warning.424783/You have also modified your system with parallel feed lines. A stock '68 or '69 B-body will be feeding only through the Packard 58 type connector as you know. You can turn on 20 amps worth of equipment in addition to 25 amps of charging and not overheat the connectors. A quick illustration for those who have not seen Nacho's parallel wire strategy. Except in this diagram its only a parallel alternator outfeed wire. This is similar to some Chrysler fleet and heavy duty arrangements. I will be doing this soon to my Barracuda. In the drawing, the alternator is shown supplying 45 amps at 14.2 Volts. Twenty amps goes to the battery by the shortest route with least restriction. As a result, no more than 25 amps goes though the bulkhead connector. This is much better because generally those terminals can not easily flow 45 amps and start to get hot.
Parallel Alternator Output during high charge.Heavy insulation melted back on bulkhead connector terminal for alternator output wire.
(Note: This is a repop, not original)
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Re: red line dash ammeter by pass
[Re: moparpro]
#2624726
02/22/19 02:57 PM
02/22/19 02:57 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095 Valencia, España
NachoRT74
master
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master
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Posts: 6,095
Valencia, España
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Of course I'm talking about make the complete upgrade and not just the alt. And actually being all car stock, as you mentioned, with a better alt and not extra equipments added, just add a secondary path between alt and amm could be pretty much enough. But making just the alt upgrade SOMETIMES could be enough as far conections are good. Since batt will/should never get drained enough to get worry about the load going back for long time. The stock path will hold the stock load without get worried about the batt recharge added load. but allways make a full upgrade is the best. EDITING: fot those interested, I'm gona simplify my installation, and will remove completelly the stock red wire from bulkhead and just keep the firewall path. Just will keep the parallel section on back side, because with that I can feed BOTH sides of main splice into the cab. After all these years with my setup, I deeply trust that just one batt path, being thicker than the stock one and despiting the bulkhead one will be pretty much enough. will be using also one of those "Trailer quick disconect connections", 10 gauge to be able to disconect these extra paths anytime on engine bay side. They are really able to handle the load: I got 2 feet long loop, to cut one large section to attach straight to the ammeter studs with eyelet terminals, and the smaller pigtail to splice it into the engine side wiring: parallel alt wire on black side and fuse link on red side.
Last edited by NachoRT74; 02/22/19 03:27 PM.
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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