Just curious if anyone has suggestions for charging system upgrades for my '73 Challenger that are basic & affordable parts swap-out mods? As far as I know, the setup now is all standard stuff w/ a generic parts store alternator.

The best thing you can do is run a wire directly from the alternator + stud to the battery.(or to the starter relay) This will take a lot of load off of the bulkhead connector. With this mod, the alternator will be charging the battery directly, instead of having to go through the bulkhead twice.

The next thing would be to add relays to the headlights. This will take even more load off of the bulkhead. It should also fix the problem of the lights dimming at idle.

I run the AR Engineering with the Denso 60 amp (Toyota) alternator. It seems to charge a lot better at low rpms than the factory Mopar stuff.

The two easiest I know of:

The AR engineering bracket with denso/Toyota alternator

The Delco CS130 into a stock big block bracket + 3.00" spacer between the alternator and the head + stock bottom spacer. Original application '89 Cadillac Brougham with a 5.0. 85 to 105 amps depending on specific model.

Alot of GM guys don't like the CS 130 because it had reliability issues when it was new (which the aftermarket has probably addressed by now) + Delco made other larger/stronger alternators that bolt right on to their stuff.

The available space in front of the head is a limiting factor, and the output stud is close to an edelbrock head with the cs130 and older mopar/denso.

I tried early 90s denso, I believe 1991 ram, and felt it was too close to the cylinder head.

Not sure how important it is, but you might prefer something that can be sourced from the local parts store rather than being stuck with powermaster or some other specialty vendor's product?

(1a) Nachos' bulkhead parallel bypass (1b) clean all terminals/connections including ground paths (check voltage drops on ALL points). (2) as said relay headlights/AC/heater to alt (3) as said if needed a better alt. I'm assuming the battery is in good shape

I use the CS130 alternator and wiring kits from madelectrical.com.Bolts onto a 440 with the stock bracket but modified spacers.I think I had to put a vee belt pulley on it in place of what came on it. Headlights run from relays.

Used to have electric fans, and at idle there was still a charge going to battery and headlights stayed bright even with those fans on.

Is this just an extra wire added, or is there cutting of old wires involved?

Will it work on a 68??

you can drop an 89 m-body alternator on it.
73 or 78 amps factory. fairly easy. if it is a sb, you may need the 10 dollar swing arm and spacer that they seem to sell at all parts stores.

I agree with the bulkhead bypass, I also bypassed the amp meter and both of those can be done without wire cutting, but I just cut them and spliced into them instead.

I also did a relay to the voltage reg so there wouldn't be any voltage drop to the charging system.

you can use the same alt on a single field charging system by grounding one of the fields on the alt to the body itself and it will charge just fine.

Borrow a little technology from the future....... or is it the past..... well, like this:

Easy and effective is to switch over all bulbs to LED, this will reduce draw by >10A.

The MAD Electrical website has you cutting and splicing the factory wiring. You can read it here.
http://www.madelectrical.com/electricaltech/amp-gauges.shtml

I'm not doing it exactly that way on my 68 Dart. I'm just going to keep the factory wiring intact but add the extra bypass wire. The bypass wire has a very low likelihood of shorting to ground but I'm still going to add a fusible like to it for my own piece of mind.

I'll be using relays on the headlights and on the convertible top motor to take as much load off the bulkhead as possible. I already bypassed the AMP gauge and will run a volt gauge instead.

Like this one?

Amazon linky

Robert

While that looks like the 89 M body Denso, it don't think it just bolts in. The 87 alternator does, but the factory changed the brackets when they went to the Denso in 88. I know when I put the Denso in my 87 M I used the 89 bracketry. I vaguely remember because that it was because the Denso didn't bolt in, but it's vague. The 87 alternator is the 78A unit, the 89 Denso is a 90A unit.

Brad----it would help if you would be more specific about what aspect of the charging system's performance you are looking to "upgrade".

Many 'hi-output' alternators actually put out LESS amperage at low RPM! A person who idles their car in traffic with accessories on might run into problems by switching to a hi-po alt.

Output while traveling at speed is a different matter.

X2
Make sure you wire in a fusible link or at least a 20 amp in-line fuse at the starter relay or battery which ever you tap into.

Also convert all bulbs inside and out to LED's as mentioned.

If you are doing any dash work,replace the old bi-metal 5 volt limiter for the gauges with an electronic one.

Another option is convert the ammeter gauge to read volts.
Hope this helps.

It depends on some stuff. How many amps do you need? Is it a single belt system running the water pump and alternator? Is the mechanical fuel pump still there or is it gone?

The 60A Denso kit that I've sold for years is a very simple setup that works really well. It also is lighter and smaller than the factory alternator. I'm now switching my personal stuff over to low mount alternators since I'm EFI and don't have a fuel pump. I have low mount kits for 90A or 60A Denso alternators. Both would fit with plenty of room in a big block E body car. I doubt that you need 90A in your car so the 60A is probably the way to go.

more like
https://www.autozone.com/batteries-start...763001_962401_0

odd that 89 shows different. It is still an m-body, but whatever. This is the standard dual field I was talking about.
87 fifth ave does it for me when I look it up.

68 Newport and I add an extra wire and wrap it up with the factory harness..

In 88 the M bodies switched to Denso alternators

Another vote for the Denso. They were available in some Toyota and Mopar applications with v-belt pulleys so a replacement is as close as your nearest Autozone in the unlikely event it ever fails.

Kevin

I put a GM CS130 alernator on my car years ago and killed the amp meter. Hands down one of the best things I have ever done to my car. It performs great even with a 5" crank pulley.

A high output alt will NEVER kill an ammeter. In fact is more the opposite.

read this and understand how the charging system works

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,33574.0/all.html

whatever you do, will need a mantenience work after 50 years of noncare on the charging system ( like it wasn't to be damaged ever )

What aspect? I dunno...

It's got old stuff -- maybe perfectly functional, but old tech -- and I presumed there were "logical" parts upgrades I should make while the car's not back on the road, yet.

The car has an aftermarket multi-spark ignition box, an electric fuel pump, and the battery's been relocated to the trunk. Other than that, I don't think there's anything about it that makes it much more of an "Amp Eater" than stock.

Sorry for being electrically ignorant.

actually you are right does are not a big amperage eater devices. But still try to get the best alt you can able to feed all the car requirements at minimun engine speed. That will keep safe EVERYTHING. with those adds, I would try to get an alt able to source up to 45 amps IDDLING. If AC car, maybe on 52-55 amps rate

No matter if the alt is 1000 amps capable, if the car just sucks 35 amps thats what the alt will provide. And the amm won't sense that unless there is something being sourced from batt side of the ammeter, or engine is off, or batt is discharged which becomes it on a amps eater like any device, but the amm will sense that

If it is working okay then you don't really need to change anything. I'd think on your car a logical upgrade would be the Denso 60 amp setup just because it is less weight, it works better and it doesn't cost very much.

I meant I killed the amp meter, as in removed it. Sorry poor wording there.

Multi-spark. MSD 6 sucks about 1 amp per 1000 rpm. Really no big deal because any alternator can keep up with that.
Electric fuel pump: Varies - see what the specs are. If it drawing on the battery at startup and even idle, then the alternator has to spend more time recharging the battery.

If you are driving it at night or in bad weather, at idle you may see the ammeter indicate battery discharge. If so, this means the alternator can't provide enough power at idle to run lights, pump and whatever else is on. Although this was normal, its not good for extended periods of time. Because the battery then needs a lot more recharging. You'll then see the ammeter go to charge for longer periods of time and at higher rates. That's what Nacho is talking about.

The mention of ammeter readings above assume the battery is the only item on that circuit. In other words:
* The battery in the trunk has a positive cable to the starter relay.
* the electric pump is fed from a connection at the fuse box or any place other than the battery or starter relay.

more info about this "issue" here:

http://www.heritech.org/cuda/Charge.html

You can get a stock 60A alternator. So is there a difference in output at idle?
Anyone have an output vs RPM for Denso and stock alternators?

This is what I suggest and sell all the time. Make sure the bulkhead is clean/fixed, leave the factory stuff in place, bypass ammeter and run a protected wire from alt charge stud direct to the starter relay. Running relays further reduces the load on bulkhead.

Don't like the mad approach with linking wires together.

Plenty of ways to do this... Pick your parts pay your money.

As far I know the diff are related on the stator winding design, Delta or Y.

Mopar alts are more toward to get voltage "efficiency" on Y kind stator, while Denso are I think, Delta kind stator getting more consistent amperage output. Whats the deal in this? You need the more amperage as posible at lower RPMs. The batt gets amperage discharge not voltage discharge, so what you need the most? Amperes.

The spec given is the max output they can provide, but, how much of the amperage is given at iddle? Stock Mopar alts usually gives barelly 50% of his max output at 1800-2000 alt rpms. With a 1.9 ratio pulley that is around 900-1000 engine rpms so a stock alts are not able to give half of the juice at iddle. While this happens, your batt is getting discharged.

Based on my experience, our cars need an alt able to give at least 40-45 amps iddiling to be sure the minimal load requirements will be covered. Even better if your closer to 50-55 amps with AC

This will guarante to feed all lighting system, ignition, radio, brakes, turnings aside wipers and AC-Heater blower at at least low speed ( both ) without being assisted by the batt

ANY of this loads requirements will go through the ammeter unless the batt beging to supply it because the alt is not able to give it. So as soon your alt is able to provide the juice, the more distressed will be the ammeter.

Beside this, if the batt never or barelly gets discharged because alt is able to source everything by its own, once again, the ammeter will be more distressed

This is an output chart from an alt I got at Rockauto. Stock replacement from mids 80s, known as 78 amps al

natcho, a couple of questions.
what size crank pulley is the 1.9 alternator ratio based on, the 7" or 7 1/4" or other ?
what size alternator pulley, the 2 3/4" or 3" ?
what would you consider the ultimate alternator ratio to be ?
how does this compare to the ratio's of today's 100+ amp systems, say on a minivan using a denso alternator ?

They talk about alt RPM on chart. The alt came with the small pulley, so is about make the maths to know what crank pulley they used.

About make comparison between alts, thats at each own depending on your car requirements, my goal here is just tell the high output alts no matter how much won't hurt our stock systems just because the output by itself. You can fit a 2000 thousands amp alts but if your car just sucks out 40, thats what the 2000 amps alt will provide.

Amperes are not pushed in, but sucked out

A woman can get giant milky boobs, but the baby won't suck out more than he needs untill gets full. And the boobs could still be full of milk after that

Thx for the data/amp curve Nacho.
Would be nice to see something similar for the Denso for comparison.

I run a Toyota/Denso 60 amp on my Savoy and it works perfectly and charges 14.6 volts at the battery in the trunk. I used to run an electric water pump and HHR fan with this set-up when I raced the car more.
Wiring is very simple and no external regulator to fail

Gus

is not about voltage is about amperes, they are related but diff things. Load is supplied by amperes... and racing is not a problem due the high revs, problem is at iddle



But internal reg can fail the same . Easier to work on an external unit.

The denso units tend to work very well with providing sufficient amps at idle. I run a 75ish amp unit on one car at it's very good from idle on up.

Been a Toyota tech for 30 years and a Honda tech for 4 years back in the 80's and have seen MAYBE 3 internal regulators fail so I think the failed regulator is a mute point.
Japanese built Denso alternators might fail in about 200 K

I don't see the low mount kit on either your or Mancini's web sites. New product?

Is about experiences. I still haven’t got a failed regulator on my 74 Charger in 19 years.

The Bosch alt ( internal reg ) on my parents 75 Mercedes failed once in last 10 years or so.

Both cars being drivers.

What I meant is there is NO LOGICAL REASON to say it won’t fail just because is internal reg. Both can fail the same! But external is easier to test and replace.

Aside in case of emergency you can full field the alt to arrive home being external!

Not to mention an external regulator can be mounted in a less stressful environment. Seems Mopar put the regulator in the computer and stayed with external regulation.

New product. I have 90A low mount kits in stock but I haven't gotten them boxed up yet for sale. The 60A low mount kit is almost finished, I just need to get the straps powder coated. I'd recommend the 60A kit for your car, especially if you have a full size battery.

On a side note, if it goes open (no charging) or full fields (pull a field wire) I would suggest driving home with no charging as opposed to full fielding as max voltage wreakes havoc on the cars' systems cuz they dont like 15+ voltage.

you can drive with lights on ( including high beams ) and AC or heater at max speed and will release the load and voltage system. Just in case of maximun emergency because your home is 1 hour or so far and your batt could not hold the load. There is a solution or an option anyway being external, imposible to deal being internal.

$12 less at Rockauto.

( search by 7024N PN )

Amazing, they were going on $50 rate quite ago ( remanufactured )

kept searching at Rockauto and found:

PURE ENERGY 7546 $27.89
ACDELCO 3341006 $45.99
REMY 14256 $46.89

Everyone same 78 amps alt, remanufactured, but serpentine belt pulley. Is just about change the pulley and done.

( searched on 86 Charger turbo list )

I bet searching down some other models will get the same

So if we think on the BEST BANG OF THE BUCK as requested... IMHO this is the winner.


EDITING... all these alts are A HAIR WIDER than the stock due the wider stator ( reason why they put more output ). This could be a problem on BBs, but getting a longer belt ( just 1" or 2", can't recall ) is enough to sway the rear of alt from block, and trim a bit the rear spacer to keep the best belt aligment will make the job.

Being there done that

My next bid ( when life allows me to pay for this, on $200 rate ) will be the TuffStuff 8590DP alt

cast finish, 100 amperes double pulley.

Aaand will keep the stock 40 amps ammeter still with this alt. I trust on my Charging system.

I'll be honest Nacho, this is a tough call. At night, I'd do it with 37 - but with a higher output alt I don't know. I'm not sure even with everything on the voltage will stay under 15.

Daytime is different. I would definately prefer to run on battery for an hour. Ignition takes so little power - could even jumper the ballast if voltage got really low.

Maybe Tuffstuff has become better but I'm not impressed with the one I bought. It had a squeak from the day I bought it. Sent it back forthem to fix and they said it was fine and they returned it to me. Still squeaked. Took it off before a long trip several years ago because I didn't fully trust it.

Fast forward to last year. Needed to replace the alternator quick so reinstalled the Tuffstuff. Squeak only was getting worse. Finally took it off. A little detective work and found the squeak was coming from the brushes???!!!
Yup. Something was on the slip ring that is sticking or grabbing the carbon.

1.

yes a tough call, but as I told as extreme emergency. You can do it or not, but still have the option. Internal regulator not even the option.


2.

Have got diff feedbacks about tuffstuff alts but latelly they seems to get better.

Which one you got ? I could buy that one from you and maybe fix it ? LOL

BTW, thanks for everyone's responses. I still have some things to look into, but you've given me some good ideas on what else can be done.