Re: Actual track results - diff vs. spool
[Re: a493demon]
#2567690
10/22/18 08:39 AM
10/22/18 08:39 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,704 Wichita
GY3
master
|
master
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,704
Wichita
|
I went from a 742 cased 8 3/4 with an Auburn cone sure-grip and 3.55 gear to a Dana 60 with spool and 3.54 gear. Car ran identical to the hundredth despite 50 lbs. weight gain.
'63 Dodge 330 11.19 @ 121 mph Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs. 10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.
|
|
|
Re: Actual track results - diff vs. spool
[Re: GY3]
#2567712
10/22/18 10:36 AM
10/22/18 10:36 AM
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,527 Tulsa, Oklahoma
340Cuda
master
|
master
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,527
Tulsa, Oklahoma
|
Car ran identical to the hundredth despite 50 lbs. weight gain. Very typical for a 8.75 to Dana swap.
|
|
|
Re: Actual track results - diff vs. spool
[Re: A727Tflite]
#2567730
10/22/18 11:12 AM
10/22/18 11:12 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,402 Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,402
Marion, South Carolina [><]
|
I saw no difference. Back when my car ran 11.40s w/ an 8.75 rear and a stock suregrip. Broke the suregrip, so I upgraded to 35 spline axles and a spool. Ran the same as it always did, although it was easier to drive...wandered less through 1st gear due to the equal distribution of power to each tire.
CHIP '70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60 '69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60 '71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75 '73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75 '90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt '06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
|
|
|
Re: Actual track results - diff vs. spool
[Re: A727Tflite]
#2568500
10/23/18 06:33 PM
10/23/18 06:33 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,102 Michigan
A727Tflite
OP
master
|
OP
master
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,102
Michigan
|
Thanks for the replies received. That answers my 8-3/4” question.
Now - going from a standard Dana limited slip to a spool.
Best I can remember the weight difference was around 40+ pounds.
Been bench racing and using the Wallace Calculators on the engine side of things. Now trying to figure out how much if any one would expect to lower their e.t. by
1) Going from 11” drum brakes to drag race weight disc brakes 2) Merge collectors vs. standard 3) Eliminating the water pump drive ( going to electric drive drive ) 4) Eliminating the mech fuel pump 5) 904 vs 727 with 2.45 low gear. ( heard .10 e.t. reduction ) 6) production windage tray to scrapper ( heard 18-20 hp) 7) 70’s era stock eliminator cheater cam to current designs allowed with higher spring rates, etc. 8) Diamond piston versus old cast piston used in item 7
If anyone has real world testing results I would appreciate your responses. If no actual track testing then actual dyno test results would be helpful too where applicable Vehicle is old stock eliminator 69-1/2 car.
Last edited by Transman; 10/23/18 06:38 PM.
|
|
|
Re: Actual track results - diff vs. spool
[Re: A727Tflite]
#2568559
10/23/18 08:50 PM
10/23/18 08:50 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
master
|
master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
|
What do you expect the merge collectors to gain?
I'm not sure the water pump is that big a deal, especially if the electric deal you have can't control the coolant temp.
Nothing to be gained by losing the mechanical fuel pump if it was keeping up.
I run a tray and a scraper. RPM and oil control are big factors in how much improvement you can find with stuff like that.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
|
|
|
Re: Actual track results - diff vs. spool
[Re: A727Tflite]
#2568571
10/23/18 09:22 PM
10/23/18 09:22 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,257 gulfport, ms, west mi
rowin4
master
|
master
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,257
gulfport, ms, west mi
|
Changed to a spool in my dana back when the Barracuda was running mid 11's . Didn't notice any change from the change.
it's ok to butt heads, just don't do it with a butthead
|
|
|
Re: Actual track results - diff vs. spool
[Re: A727Tflite]
#2568579
10/23/18 09:34 PM
10/23/18 09:34 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,406 New Jersey, USA
yella71
pro stock
|
pro stock
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,406
New Jersey, USA
|
went from a diff to a spool.....did not break the spool that was the change I saw
71 challenger convertable, 64 sport fury 383 ci with factory air
99 sebring convertable
89 CTD pup
|
|
|
Re: Actual track results - diff vs. spool
[Re: A727Tflite]
#2568618
10/23/18 10:16 PM
10/23/18 10:16 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 12,592 Great Neck,LI,new york
hemi-itis
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 12,592
Great Neck,LI,new york
|
When I bought my car about 30 years ago,it came with the spool that is still in the car.I did remove the 5:13 and go 4:10
HEMI-ITIS has no cure. My condition is fully BLOWN!!
|
|
|
Re: Actual track results - diff vs. spool
[Re: A727Tflite]
#2568628
10/23/18 10:31 PM
10/23/18 10:31 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,319 Puyallup, WA
StealthWedge67
master
|
master
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,319
Puyallup, WA
|
This is most likely a case of “the whole is more than the sum of the parts”. “High performance” is usually not a piece by piece equation.
LemonWedge - Street heavy / Strip ready - 11.07 @ 120
|
|
|
Re: Actual track results - diff vs. spool
[Re: StealthWedge67]
#2568630
10/23/18 10:35 PM
10/23/18 10:35 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,102 Michigan
A727Tflite
OP
master
|
OP
master
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,102
Michigan
|
This is most likely a case of “the whole is more than the sum of the parts”. “High performance” is usually not a piece by piece equation. When we do testing we don’t make 9 changes and hope for an improvement. Oh well, onward and upward.
|
|
|
Re: Actual track results - diff vs. spool
[Re: A727Tflite]
#2568639
10/23/18 11:03 PM
10/23/18 11:03 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
master
|
master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
|
Based on some feedback so far all the stock eliminator cars using merge collectors are wasting their time. Same with all the guys that went from simple belt driven water pumps to electric, dropping the mechanical pump, spool, etc.
Last time I ran an engine on the dyno just going from no collector extension to a longer one picked up 18 lbs. ft.
Sounds like all these “improvements” only lighten up one’s wallet.
Thanks for the comments so far. I asked about the collectors because I think there is way more to it than just the merge collector. Calvin Elston has written on this a bunch. It's more of a thought process that actually starts with the intake tract and works its way to the collector. It's all about making the intake more efficient by using a smaller exhaust valve and working your way out. The smaller exhaust allows for a bigger intake. Then you have to engineer your way back out, including cam timing, to the header pipe (which he says should be the exact size and shape of the port) then out to the collector. It's as much an art as it is a science when you are working with the exhaust side of the engine.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
|
|
|
Re: Actual track results - diff vs. spool
[Re: A727Tflite]
#2568656
10/23/18 11:43 PM
10/23/18 11:43 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,319 Puyallup, WA
StealthWedge67
master
|
master
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,319
Puyallup, WA
|
This is most likely a case of “the whole is more than the sum of the parts”. “High performance” is usually not a piece by piece equation. When we do testing we don’t make 9 changes and hope for an improvement. Oh well, onward and upward. That’s not what I was suggesting at all. It is more than plausible in my opinion however that you could measure each of these modifications in a vacuum by themselves and see no improvement with any single one of them. But when the right ones are hooked together; bam...... a full tenth.
LemonWedge - Street heavy / Strip ready - 11.07 @ 120
|
|
|
Re: Actual track results - diff vs. spool
[Re: StealthWedge67]
#2568664
10/24/18 12:04 AM
10/24/18 12:04 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,704 Wichita
GY3
master
|
master
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,704
Wichita
|
My favorite was a buddy telling me my K&N airfilter was a huge restriction.
Ran 11.41 with it, next run ran 11.41 without...
'63 Dodge 330 11.19 @ 121 mph Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs. 10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.
|
|
|
Re: Actual track results - diff vs. spool
[Re: A727Tflite]
#2568718
10/24/18 03:50 AM
10/24/18 03:50 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,212 Park Forest, IL
slantzilla
Too Many Posts
|
Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,212
Park Forest, IL
|
My buddy Mike tried merge collectors on his Slant stocker. He said they made little difference on the dyno, but picked up .02 in the 60'.
"Everybody funny, now you funny too."
|
|
|
Re: Actual track results - diff vs. spool
[Re: A727Tflite]
#2568722
10/24/18 05:13 AM
10/24/18 05:13 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,728 Portage,michigan
B3422W5
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,728
Portage,michigan
|
Based on some feedback so far all the stock eliminator cars using merge collectors are wasting their time. Same with all the guys that went from simple belt driven water pumps to electric, dropping the mechanical pump, spool, etc.
Last time I ran an engine on the dyno just going from no collector extension to a longer one picked up 18 lbs. ft.
Sounds like all these “improvements” only lighten up one’s wallet.
Thanks for the comments so far. Every car i have raced went from stock waterpump and fan setup to electric water pump and fan at some point in its transformation Every car picked up right around a full tenth. It isnt myth. My brother few years did exactly the same, in fact we made the swaps the same week on both cars we had at the time. He in fact still has that one. We bith went personal bests after the swaps with those cars Just 3 years ago my 318 equipped 71 Duster( not grandmas 318) ran a best of 11.79. Raced the car several years. One outing at track took off all the stock belts, pushed the car to the line and went 11.66 with it. Had power steering too. Also unhooked that I know for a fact because i have done it on multiple cars/ combo’s that electric water pumps and fans pick up ET a good bit over stock. Zero doubt about it.
Last edited by B3422W5; 10/24/18 05:19 AM.
69 Dart GTS A4 Silver All steel, flat factory hood, 3360race weight 418 BPE factory replacement headed stroker, 565 lift solid cam Best so far, low 10.30’s 1/4 1.41 best 60 foot 6.56 at 104.17
|
|
|
Re: Actual track results - diff vs. spool
[Re: B3422W5]
#2568726
10/24/18 06:07 AM
10/24/18 06:07 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,150 Melbourne , Australia
LA360
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,150
Melbourne , Australia
|
Merge collector testing can be a day of dyno testing on their own. A lot of stock eliminator guys run them, but they'd be custom. The generic ones from Dynatech etc etc have mixed results from what I've seen. They are one thing I am going to play around with on a factory headed 360 I have. With any luck we will dyno before Christmas, after I get home from PRI.
Alan Jones
|
|
|
Re: Actual track results - diff vs. spool
[Re: A727Tflite]
#2568770
10/24/18 11:14 AM
10/24/18 11:14 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 715 Central TEXAS!!!!
sr4440
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 715
Central TEXAS!!!!
|
I have done a lot of work with merge collectors and I can tell you they do work, BUT (there is always a but) if you think you can buy a merge collector off of eBay and pick up a bunch you are going to be disappointed. On my engine I built a set of headers and after seeing the results ordered a new camshaft, made more power with less exhaust duration and the exact same intake lobe. Didn’t go far enough.
So as to not to hijack this tread anymore, let’s just say if you see any carbon in the intake track you can made some power with a merge collector but you’re going to have to let go of some old wives tales (yes, I know that is sexist).
Joe
Without Data, you’re just another guy with an opinion.
|
|
|
|
|