Re: 500" R/B Total Advance Timing
[Re: moparjohn]
#2563895
10/14/18 03:26 PM
10/14/18 03:26 PM
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Cab_Burge
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Did you verify TDC on the dampener and timing tab? The reason I ask that is when we tested timing at the track or on a engine or chassis dyno all the RB we tested like from 34 to 36 max, the race cars would slow down in the 1/4 with 38 or 32 degrees total That was a long time ago with stock stroke iron headed bracket motors running in Super Street. We ran street hemi cars in NHRA stock and had the same results on both of those cars My last pump gas 518 C.I. BB with iron and aluminum heads seemed to like from 34 to 36 degree also
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: 500" R/B Total Advance Timing
[Re: GY3]
#2563918
10/14/18 04:04 PM
10/14/18 04:04 PM
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moparjohn
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Thanks for the replies! Here is some added info: Yes, The TDC of the piston and timing mark was verified. The pistons are flat tops with Indy SR heads Max Wedge type intake ports. Running 110 race fuel and compression is 12 to 1. MJ
Last edited by moparjohn; 10/14/18 04:05 PM.
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Re: 500" R/B Total Advance Timing
[Re: moparjohn]
#2563936
10/14/18 04:36 PM
10/14/18 04:36 PM
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bee1971
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My Little 383/432 Stroker
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Loves 15 Initial - 18 Mechanical - 33 Degrees Total 91 Octane No Ethanol
1971 Dodge Charger Superbee 2011 Ram Sport 1500 Quad Cab Deep Water Blue Loaded Siberian Huskies
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Re: 500" R/B Total Advance Timing
[Re: moparjohn]
#2564035
10/14/18 08:25 PM
10/14/18 08:25 PM
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moparacer
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A lot of factors go into total timing. So much that you really can't go off of anyone else's setup. AF ratio, spark plug heat range, altitude you are running at, RPM range, piston type, cylinder head and combustion chamber efficiency, and on and on and on.
I have a 500 B on alky with 13.3 compression and domes that doesn't like any less than 38 degrees total. And the domes make it want more timing from my experiences and I have ran similar setups with flat tops that want lower total, maybe not like you are seeing but in the lower 30s anyway.. If she wants to run at 28, I would run her at 28!
Last edited by moparacer; 10/14/18 08:26 PM.
67 Barracuda street/bracket car 11.27-119 68 Dart 502 BB 8.70s-152 414 cid SB Dragster 7.65-174
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Re: 500" R/B Total Advance Timing
[Re: moparjohn]
#2564052
10/14/18 08:48 PM
10/14/18 08:48 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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DaveRS23
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My 500" wedge always liked 34*. I ran several different cams in the 245* to 255* range.
Master, again and still
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Re: 500" R/B Total Advance Timing
[Re: moparjohn]
#2564086
10/14/18 09:54 PM
10/14/18 09:54 PM
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bee1971
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Can’t see the timing marks on the ground electrodes with those fuzzy pictures
But it’s running rich
1971 Dodge Charger Superbee 2011 Ram Sport 1500 Quad Cab Deep Water Blue Loaded Siberian Huskies
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Re: 500" R/B Total Advance Timing
[Re: bee1971]
#2564128
10/14/18 10:44 PM
10/14/18 10:44 PM
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madscientist
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Can’t see the timing marks on the ground electrodes with those fuzzy pictures
But it’s running rich It's rich and the plug looks hot. That's why it likes less timing. He is pulling timing to keep the plug from overheating, rather than let the plug function like it was designed. I've seen that my entire life.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: 500" R/B Total Advance Timing
[Re: moparjohn]
#2564317
10/15/18 11:29 AM
10/15/18 11:29 AM
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fast68plymouth
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What’s the timing light being used?
FWIW, I’ve never dynoed anything where the best power was made at 28* timing.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 500" R/B Total Advance Timing
[Re: moparjohn]
#2564348
10/15/18 12:18 PM
10/15/18 12:18 PM
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polyspheric
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High VE means higher cylinder pressure: less spark
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: 500" R/B Total Advance Timing
[Re: moparjohn]
#2564377
10/15/18 01:19 PM
10/15/18 01:19 PM
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moparjohn
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Here are some more pictures of the #1 and #2 spark plugs. The first 2 are #1 and the last 2 are #2. The one turned out real well and should help analyze. MJ
Last edited by moparjohn; 10/15/18 01:20 PM.
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Re: 500" R/B Total Advance Timing
[Re: moparjohn]
#2564395
10/15/18 02:04 PM
10/15/18 02:04 PM
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Thumperdart
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What plug n heat range...........looks rich, wet and unhappy........
72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
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Re: 500" R/B Total Advance Timing
[Re: moparjohn]
#2564416
10/15/18 02:45 PM
10/15/18 02:45 PM
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fast68plymouth
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Dial-back timing lights...... I don’t trust them.
The first thing I’d do is get a light without the dial-back feature and redo the test at the track.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 500" R/B Total Advance Timing
[Re: moparjohn]
#2564606
10/15/18 09:48 PM
10/15/18 09:48 PM
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Al_Alguire
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Those plugs look quite unhappy....First how many passes are on them? What plug is it?
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Re: 500" R/B Total Advance Timing
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2564630
10/15/18 10:49 PM
10/15/18 10:49 PM
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BSB67
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Dial-back timing lights...... I don’t trust them.
The first thing I’d do is get a light without the dial-back feature and redo the test at the track. I thought I was the only one that felt this way. Only used two dial-backs, and they were both incorrect. I'm still using my 45 year old Sears non dialback timing light.
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Re: 500" R/B Total Advance Timing
[Re: moparjohn]
#2564701
10/16/18 01:33 AM
10/16/18 01:33 AM
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ozymaxwedge
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Those plugs in the pics have short straps, mine are NGK BCP7ES have straps that are over the electrode. Any benefit from a short strap ?
1963 Plymouth Max Wedge 1971 Barracuda
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Re: 500" R/B Total Advance Timing
[Re: ozymaxwedge]
#2564726
10/16/18 04:47 AM
10/16/18 04:47 AM
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Cab_Burge
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Those plugs in the pics have short straps, mine are NGK BCP7ES have straps that are over the electrode. Any benefit from a short strap ? The exposed gap into the combustion chamber is usually a small benefit for race motors, especially if your close to the piston tops with the plugs Try them and see if you like them
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: 500" R/B Total Advance Timing
[Re: moparjohn]
#2564841
10/16/18 02:35 PM
10/16/18 02:35 PM
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Thumperdart
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The plugs have no more than 20 passes on them. I have attached a picture of a new box of plugs. They are Champion product number 297 plug number C61CX. The heat range is the 61 in the part number. I hope this helps? MJ Lawn mower plugs...........
72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
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Re: 500" R/B Total Advance Timing
[Re: moparjohn]
#2564854
10/16/18 02:50 PM
10/16/18 02:50 PM
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Nothing wrong with that plug. I use champions and that's all I use unless the customer has some weird aversion to them.
That 61 is a fairly cold plug, yet those look hot. Unless you are at sea level and 15:1 that plug should be the correct range. You can try the 59 but I'm not sure what's going on.
You got a ton of fuel moving through the engine, no timing and plug that looks hot. Something is weird.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: 500" R/B Total Advance Timing
[Re: moparjohn]
#2564862
10/16/18 02:58 PM
10/16/18 02:58 PM
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I just skimmed back through the thread and you are at 12:1 so that plug SHOULD be too cold. I would have started with a 284/C65YC or if you don't want the extended tip you can use the 285/C65C and tune from there.
So I've switched horses mid stream. I'm going to say get a hotter plug, verify TDC and your timing light and tune from there.
As AndyF said your plugs look bad. Sometimes looking at pictures isn't the same as looking in real life.
If there is no reason you can't run an extended tip plug, I'd use the extended tip.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: 500" R/B Total Advance Timing
[Re: madscientist]
#2564867
10/16/18 03:11 PM
10/16/18 03:11 PM
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moparjohn
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The C61CX is at the top of the heat range! They make a C63CX and it is at the top. They also make cooler C59CX, C57CX, C55CX and C53CX. I have attached a chart showing these numbers hot to cold. So my C61CX is one of the hottest heat cycle plugs. So now my question is how far to go down in heat range? Thanks! MJ
Last edited by moparjohn; 10/16/18 03:12 PM.
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Re: 500" R/B Total Advance Timing
[Re: moparjohn]
#2564913
10/16/18 04:16 PM
10/16/18 04:16 PM
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fast68plymouth
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I like NGK’s.
At 12:1 you’re in the -7 or -8 heat range(higher is colder).
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 500" R/B Total Advance Timing
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2564919
10/16/18 04:28 PM
10/16/18 04:28 PM
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Thumperdart
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I like NGK’s.
At 12:1 you’re in the -7 or -8 heat range(higher is colder). I run NGK #8's at 12.1.1 comp and they last a long time on the street testing carbs and general cruising BUT my motor is in a pretty optimum tune verified by track times, afr's, plug readings and a good street tune before I hit the track. Plug looks glazed over which is as stated HOT combustion chambers weather too much timing, lean, too hot of plug etc...........Good luck...........
72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
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Re: 500" R/B Total Advance Timing
[Re: moparjohn]
#2564921
10/16/18 04:30 PM
10/16/18 04:30 PM
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The C61CX is at the top of the heat range! They make a C63CX and it is at the top. They also make cooler C59CX, C57CX, C55CX and C53CX. I have attached a chart showing these numbers hot to cold. So my C61CX is one of the hottest heat cycle plugs. So now my question is how far to go down in heat range? Thanks! MJ Rule number one is NEVER use a cross reference for plug heat ranges. They are somewhat close approximations, but not good enough to use as a fool proof heat range indicator. Again, like I said, I don't think you need the cut back ground wire plug. At your compression ratio, you just don't need it. IMO, you'll be better off with an extended tip plug. The C65YC and the C65C are both two ranges hotter than what you are running. I'd have to look but I'd bet the plug that Porter just posted isn't a cutback ground wire plug. So as I said, I'd order the hotter plugs and start over after you verify TDC and your timing light. Don't be married to the CX plug. It may look cool but you just don't need it.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: 500" R/B Total Advance Timing
[Re: moparjohn]
#2564926
10/16/18 04:33 PM
10/16/18 04:33 PM
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BTW, did you mention what ignition you have? That sort of greenish tint can be from a weak ignition.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: 500" R/B Total Advance Timing
[Re: madscientist]
#2565128
10/16/18 11:08 PM
10/16/18 11:08 PM
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moparjohn
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BTW, did you mention what ignition you have? That sort of greenish tint can be from a weak ignition. The ignition is MSD all the way! MSD distributor, MSD coil and MSD coil wires. New cap and rotor also. MJ
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Re: 500" R/B Total Advance Timing
[Re: moparjohn]
#2565195
10/17/18 01:51 AM
10/17/18 01:51 AM
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BTW, did you mention what ignition you have? That sort of greenish tint can be from a weak ignition. The ignition is MSD all the way! MSD distributor, MSD coil and MSD coil wires. New cap and rotor also. MJ Which MSD box? Like AndyF said many posts ago...your plugs look strange. At first look I thought they were too hot and reducing timing and adding fuel were keeping it from killing itself. Once we got deeper into it, it seems to me those plugs are plenty cold for what you are doing. That doesn't explain the green tint, what looks like a ton of heat and not being able to see a timing line on the ground wire. The insulator should be a dull white from the top down to the fuel ring. Most likely, you'll see some clouding on the porcelain from coming up the return road, especially if you don't run a power valve. The plugs look strange and your timing is also an anomaly.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: 500" R/B Total Advance Timing
[Re: moparjohn]
#2565196
10/17/18 01:52 AM
10/17/18 01:52 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
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Cab_Burge
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Is the ICU a 6,6A,6AL, 7AL2 or which MSD box are you firing the coil with and which coil are you using?
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 10/17/18 01:53 AM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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