Another help me choose a cam thread 69 Charger 440 4spd 3.54
#2535415
08/13/18 01:20 AM
08/13/18 01:20 AM
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Dixie
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Hey Guys,
Would like your opinion on a new cam for my car. The car is a '69 Charger, '69 440, 4-spd, 3.54 Dana, 295/50/15 tires. Engine is running factory carb, intake, 906 heads and exhaust manifolds with stock exhaust system with repro hemi mufflers. Compression is 11.26:1, heads cleaned up with larger exhaust valve. Other than that, pretty stock.
What I'm looking for is a cam that will enable the most performance from the engine given the restrictions of the stock carb, intake and exhaust. Also, being a big heavy car with a 4-spd. I don't care about how it sounds, just how it runs.
Looking for single bolt, hydraulic cam for stock rocker assy.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions!
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Re: Another help me choose a cam thread 69 Charger 440 4spd 3.54
[Re: Dixie]
#2535426
08/13/18 01:47 AM
08/13/18 01:47 AM
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better get some race gas for that compression & iron heads
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI 512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim 2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
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Re: Another help me choose a cam thread 69 Charger 440 4spd 3.54
[Re: Dixie]
#2535429
08/13/18 01:51 AM
08/13/18 01:51 AM
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Are you sure about that compression ratio? That's a lot for iron heads. If you were at 9.5:1 with iron, or 10.0 with aluminum, I'd say the Engle cam I put in my 446" 440 - 4speed, 3.55s, taller tire, '63 Savoy wagon - would be great. It was 224/234 @ .050, lift was around .504/.512, 110 CL. Well-behaved, nice street cam, not too rumpity, fine with 92 octane. That car ran Eddy heads and the full Maxie exhaust system, single 850 Holley, 10.0:1 actual CR. You can find the lobe specs at their website.
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Re: Another help me choose a cam thread 69 Charger 440 4spd 3.54
[Re: Dixie]
#2535521
08/13/18 11:03 AM
08/13/18 11:03 AM
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Dixie
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Yes, I run race gas in it. It's 11:26 compression.
Last edited by Dixie; 08/13/18 11:10 AM.
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Re: Another help me choose a cam thread 69 Charger 440 4spd 3.54
[Re: Dixie]
#2535750
08/13/18 05:49 PM
08/13/18 05:49 PM
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.....Engine is running factory carb, intake, 906 heads and exhaust manifolds with stock exhaust system with repro hemi mufflers. Compression is 11.26:1, heads cleaned up with larger exhaust valve. Other than that, pretty stock.
..........hydraulic cam for stock rocker assy.
Your intake is by far your performance limiting factor. Will you be modifying it in anyway? Bob K. cam or something like the Crower 271 is what I would probably look at.
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Re: Another help me choose a cam thread 69 Charger 440 4spd 3.54
[Re: BSB67]
#2535904
08/13/18 11:11 PM
08/13/18 11:11 PM
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Dixie
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.....Engine is running factory carb, intake, 906 heads and exhaust manifolds with stock exhaust system with repro hemi mufflers. Compression is 11.26:1, heads cleaned up with larger exhaust valve. Other than that, pretty stock.
..........hydraulic cam for stock rocker assy.
Your intake is by far your performance limiting factor. Will you be modifying it in anyway? Bob K. cam or something like the Crower 271 is what I would probably look at. I had not thought about modifying the intake. How do you mean, modify it? By Crower 271, do you mean the 32241? Thanks!
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Re: Another help me choose a cam thread 69 Charger 440 4spd 3.54
[Re: Dixie]
#2535977
08/14/18 01:26 AM
08/14/18 01:26 AM
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So you left everything pretty stock but bumped up the compression a bunch. You changed pistons for sure to do that, if you didn't, you don't have 11.26 comp.
But with that said, with all the stock parts you are using there are a bunch of cams you could use. With the biggest restrictions stock intake and exhaust and 906 heads id go with a cam around 238* @.050 around .500 lift on a 108LSA. Any bigger and she will feel like a dog around town.
If you did change your pistons and have a true 11.26 , im not sure I would go much bigger then that either, because of the stock manifolds and intake. If it were a automatic with a vert, I would say you could go a little bigger.
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Re: Another help me choose a cam thread 69 Charger 440 4spd 3.54
[Re: Dixie]
#2536171
08/14/18 02:18 PM
08/14/18 02:18 PM
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fast68plymouth
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That’s what I was thinking.
I did a bunch of testing on that stuff 8-10 years ago. As Russ said, the stock intake is really a cork.
Stock 906 head @.500 lift = 226cfm Bolt on stock intake manifold = 189cfm Mild clean up stock intake = 195cfm Mild clean up 6bbl intake = 217cfm
Mild ported 346 head @.500 lift = 259cfm With stock intake = 202cfm Mild clean up stock intake = 212cfm Mild clean up 6bbl intake = 242cfm Gasket matched RB M1 single plane = 255cfm
The stock head with the cleaned up 6bbl intake outflows the ported head with the cleaned up 4bbl intake.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Another help me choose a cam thread 69 Charger 440 4spd 3.54
[Re: Sport440]
#2536197
08/14/18 03:05 PM
08/14/18 03:05 PM
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Dixie
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So you left everything pretty stock but bumped up the compression a bunch. You changed pistons for sure to do that, if you didn't, you don't have 11.26 comp.
But with that said, with all the stock parts you are using there are a bunch of cams you could use. With the biggest restrictions stock intake and exhaust and 906 heads id go with a cam around 238* @.050 around .500 lift on a 108LSA. Any bigger and she will feel like a dog around town.
If you did change your pistons and have a true 11.26 , im not sure I would go much bigger then that either, because of the stock manifolds and intake. If it were a automatic with a vert, I would say you could go a little bigger. Yes, long story short, after replacing pistons, decking block, surfacing heads, the engine builder used a thin head gasket and that's what the compression wound up at. It's had the heads cleaned up with mild porting. It is already assembled, but needs a new cam due to cam bearings not being installed correctly resulting in oil starvation. So, this is not a new rebuild. I'm keeping it stock externally. I don't know that the cam that was in it previously was the right choice given the engines restrictions, so just wondering what your recommendations are. Thanks for all the input!!
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Re: Another help me choose a cam thread 69 Charger 440 4spd 3.54
[Re: lewtot184]
#2536200
08/14/18 03:10 PM
08/14/18 03:10 PM
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I think you could run a little extra duration with that compression but i'd spread the lobe separation a little too. Could you give me an example of what you think would work? Thanks!
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Re: Another help me choose a cam thread 69 Charger 440 4spd 3.54
[Re: Dixie]
#2536309
08/14/18 06:13 PM
08/14/18 06:13 PM
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fast68plymouth
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This could be one of those combinations were a bigger cam won't do anything but LOSE torque across the usable RPM range, gaining you nothing. For sure........ it’s knowing just how big is big enough without being too big😬
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Another help me choose a cam thread 69 Charger 440 4spd 3.54
[Re: Dixie]
#2536452
08/14/18 10:07 PM
08/14/18 10:07 PM
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Yes, long story short, after replacing pistons, decking block, surfacing heads, the engine builder used a thin head gasket and that's what the compression wound up at.
Not to beat a dead horse, but what pistons? You/someone would need to have purchased a domed high compression piston which are normally reserved for racing. You cannot mill 906 heads and deck the block to 11.2 CR with a typical replacement type piston.
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Re: Another help me choose a cam thread 69 Charger 440 4spd 3.54
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2536461
08/14/18 10:23 PM
08/14/18 10:23 PM
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This could be one of those combinations were a bigger cam won't do anything but LOSE torque across the usable RPM range, gaining you nothing. For sure........ it’s knowing just how big is big enough without being too big😬 That is why I recommended what I did. The intake is done at 5000. I don't mean its past peak, I mean done. To maximize usable power, probably a cam that peaks at 4500 to 4600 rpm. Change the intake, totally different game.
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Re: Another help me choose a cam thread 69 Charger 440 4spd 3.54
[Re: Dixie]
#2536480
08/14/18 11:18 PM
08/14/18 11:18 PM
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fast68plymouth
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I’d be looking for a ch4b. It wouldn’t be night and day....... but it would be something, and basically looks stock.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Another help me choose a cam thread 69 Charger 440 4spd 3.54
[Re: BSB67]
#2536643
08/15/18 10:59 AM
08/15/18 10:59 AM
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Dixie
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Yes, long story short, after replacing pistons, decking block, surfacing heads, the engine builder used a thin head gasket and that's what the compression wound up at.
Not to beat a dead horse, but what pistons? You/someone would need to have purchased a domed high compression piston which are normally reserved for racing. You cannot mill 906 heads and deck the block to 11.2 CR with a typical replacement type piston. Not sure, I let the engine builder buy them and that's the CR he told me. I can tell you it doesn't like pump gas!!
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Re: Another help me choose a cam thread 69 Charger 440 4spd 3.54
[Re: lewtot184]
#2536644
08/15/18 11:00 AM
08/15/18 11:00 AM
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I was thinking; do we know what cam is in the engine now? or are we assuming a stock magnum cam? It has a COMP Cam XE268H high energy, which was OK. Just wondering if there's something better.
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Re: Another help me choose a cam thread 69 Charger 440 4spd 3.54
[Re: Dixie]
#2536672
08/15/18 11:52 AM
08/15/18 11:52 AM
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Yes, long story short, after replacing pistons, decking block, surfacing heads, the engine builder used a thin head gasket and that's what the compression wound up at.
Not to beat a dead horse, but what pistons? You/someone would need to have purchased a domed high compression piston which are normally reserved for racing. You cannot mill 906 heads and deck the block to 11.2 CR with a typical replacement type piston. Not sure, I let the engine builder buy them and that's the CR he told me. I can tell you it doesn't like pump gas!! Neither does mine, lugged in 4th it sounds like a paint can on straight pump gas. However it takes so little to get it to stop. 1 gallon of race stuff to five gallons pump quiets it right up.
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Re: Another help me choose a cam thread 69 Charger 440 4spd 3.54
[Re: Dixie]
#2536694
08/15/18 12:25 PM
08/15/18 12:25 PM
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I was thinking; do we know what cam is in the engine now? or are we assuming a stock magnum cam? It has a COMP Cam XE268H high energy, which was OK. Just wondering if there's something better. from my experience I don't like a comp cams 268 anything in a 440. for example; going from a comp cams 268/276 to a mopar 272/.455 I picked up 2-3mph in the quarter with a stock type engine. those 268's are 110lsa with 4 degrees of advance no matter what flavor you buy. they close the intake valve way too early. a cheapo summit 6401 is a better cam for what your doing. there are some lobes out there that may improve on the summit but will need to be custom ground.
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Re: Another help me choose a cam thread 69 Charger 440 4spd 3.54
[Re: Dixie]
#2536711
08/15/18 01:04 PM
08/15/18 01:04 PM
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fast68plymouth
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Not a product bash by any means....... more of a “heads up” for whom it may concern.
The big Summit cam is a tried and true White Box cam in a 440......as well as other makes and families of engines. One of my friends was freshening a 455 Pontiac for a customer of his, asked about a good off the shelf cam for the motor, and I suggested that same grind. He got it, put it in...... motor ran decent enough with it. Well, someone didn’t do a good enough job checking the condition of the rod bores and/or clearances, and within 50 miles it sounded like a rod bearing was failing.
Pulls it apart, sure enough a rod bearing is going away(not spun, but down to copper all the way around).
He gets to looking things over and is concerned with one of the cam lobes. Says the corresponding lifter looks fine, but doesn’t like the lobe. He brings it over for me to look at, sure enough that lobe has started to go. It’s got about .010 or so missing off the nose.
I could’ve dismissed it as poor assembly or break in practices except for what I saw on the other 15 lobes. The lifter wear track was right down the center of the lobe. This lead me to put the cam in the lathe and measure the lifter taper. Indicating across the bearing journals showed basically zero movement, then checking 8-10 various lobes showed what I suspected by seeing the centered wear pattern....... less than .001 lobe taper. Most performance cams have between .0015-.0020 lobe taper. The reduced taper resulted in the lifters having contact basically at the center of the crown, which results in poor lifter rotation.
The other issue I found and didn’t care for was there was quite a bit of chatter all the way around the lobes........ with the wear pattern having a railroad track look to it.
I’ve used those cams in the past with pretty good results, but after seeing that....... I won’t anymore.
I got a custom Comp for that 455, a little bigger....... it had .002 lobe taper...... good lifter rotation...... no issues with that one.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Another help me choose a cam thread 69 Charger 440 4spd 3.54
[Re: Dixie]
#2536749
08/15/18 01:59 PM
08/15/18 01:59 PM
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fast68plymouth
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A couple years ago we put a Howard’s 720141-12 in a fresh 440-6 rebuild.
It worked well enough but there might have been a few hp left on the table. Made like 410hp with headers(manifolds in the car).
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Another help me choose a cam thread 69 Charger 440 4spd 3.54
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2541337
08/25/18 07:08 PM
08/25/18 07:08 PM
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I’d be looking for a ch4b. It wouldn’t be night and day....... but it would be something, and basically looks stock. I can attest to this.I have a ch4b on my well ported iron headed 496 with an older Hughes Engines solid lifter cam(smallest solid they made at the time).I did send the intake to Hughes for their "deep port match".All this was done 20 years ago it seems. That intake has no problem turning 6k rpm and pulling to it in my 496.
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Re: Another help me choose a cam thread 69 Charger 440 4spd 3.54
[Re: Dixie]
#2541458
08/26/18 02:30 AM
08/26/18 02:30 AM
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lots of good hints The Nostalgia plus may be OK, maybe not - Duration may be too big for your driving style and build- maybe not lobe centers may be too narrow for that CR- essentially a repop of the Direct Connection/ Racer Brown 284 cam but I'd be looking at the XE275HL series if comp cams is your thing- and what they have may or may not be OK The 268 most likely too small with that compression and it's not optimized for Mopar in the first place U have a unique combination I'd contact Racer Brown and Bullet/Ultradine lots more Hyd selections as does Howard key is getting advise from the grinder for your combination Lunati Voodoo is always a good call for MOPARS agree on holding down overlap really easy to give up the low end without having the flow or revs to have a big top end so build an "Engine Masters" type torque curve
Last edited by wyrmrider; 08/26/18 01:01 PM.
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