Re: Holley 750 vs 850 vs 950
[Re: polyspheric]
#2524952
07/21/18 12:45 PM
07/21/18 12:45 PM
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 304 Florida
Mark Whitener
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 304
Florida
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And the question, relevant but never asked: "Are all of those tests done on the specific engine which develops that intake vacuum with that carburetor (no more, no less), or on the same fixture?
Please: be rude, I'm used to it. To be rude as you asked for why ask a question you know the answer to??? Unless the carburetor is significantly restrictive in the RPM range the engine is used the engine will pull nearly identical air thru all the carbs. The difference is in how much horsepower is lost pulling air thru the smaller carbs, pumping losses. Each carb on the same engine will have a different WOT vacuum reading, the smaller the carb, the higher the vacuum. Higher vacuum will help with atomization and vaporization leading to better distribution and homogenization of the air and fuel, but with more pumping losses. The trick is to find the ideal balance for best net HP.
Mark Whitener [url=www.racingfuelsystems.com[/url]
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Re: Holley 750 vs 850 vs 950
[Re: skrews]
#2525231
07/22/18 07:48 AM
07/22/18 07:48 AM
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Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 570 UK
rb446
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 570
UK
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Back in 1985 we tested the std 750DP the car came with on a lesser tune vs a 850DP 4781 w/choke horn milled and a 50cc pump on the front on my stock 340 10:1 with a HS Strip Dom int.,+ open 2" spacer, 590 solid, 1.3/4" race hdrs., 4200stall, 4.30's, 10x28's. Much to the surprise of all the other racers who said it was too big and kept on about it, it ran 1.9 faster and we only ran the motor to 6100. Not really enough motor/rpm to warrant that carb but it worked for us and we proved a point, and I bet not many today would run that carb with such a tame motor.
1969 'Cuda 446ci, best 9.96@133.9 in 1990 1971 340 'Cuda, best 11.01@122.8 in 1987
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Re: Holley 750 vs 850 vs 950
[Re: skrews]
#2525265
07/22/18 11:35 AM
07/22/18 11:35 AM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206 New York
polyspheric
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206
New York
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I'll just stop now, before I annoy anyone else with those irritating laws of physics.
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Holley 750 vs 850 vs 950
[Re: skrews]
#2530327
08/02/18 02:36 AM
08/02/18 02:36 AM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,319 Puyallup, WA
StealthWedge67
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,319
Puyallup, WA
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It certainly seems, even though I’m sure it’s not just this easy, that on hot engines bigger is better. I used to run a downleg 830 on my fairly mild 451 thinking it was “the correct” carb for my engine. I then put an annular 1000 HP on it, and (like most others report) it went faster by about 1-1/2 tenths. Surprisingly to me, it not only went faster, but it seemed to run crisper and more responsive down low as well. Lesson learned: if you want to go fast, don’t be afraid to reach for the real speed parts.
LemonWedge - Street heavy / Strip ready - 11.07 @ 120
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Re: Holley 750 vs 850 vs 950
[Re: BSB67]
#2530335
08/02/18 02:49 AM
08/02/18 02:49 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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I have a 4781 with the airborne milled. It runs very nicely on my car. I also have a small venture 950. Certainly the 4781 out flows the 950. After extensive testing and tuning, and to my surprise, the 4781 could not run with the 950 on my car. Corrected data had the 950 on top by 0.15 sec and 1.5 mph. As we've discussed before since I mentioned seeing a similar .2 and 2 MPH improvement comparing the same carbs, flow numbers and traditional engine dyno testing don't factor in shift recovery on the track.
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Re: Holley 750 vs 850 vs 950
[Re: skrews]
#2530337
08/02/18 02:54 AM
08/02/18 02:54 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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Carb companies would be better off just listing the venturi diameter and base plate diameter... That's what you'll get from Braswell.
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Re: Holley 750 vs 850 vs 950
[Re: skrews]
#2530338
08/02/18 02:58 AM
08/02/18 02:58 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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wonder where my 1.48 venturi 1.79 would fall into that... Is that a Braswell ? Yeah, sounds like a Braswell 4825. Now I'm curious if it's a 2-circuit or 4-circuit, since the 4825s are available in both.
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Re: Holley 750 vs 850 vs 950
[Re: BradH]
#2530341
08/02/18 03:15 AM
08/02/18 03:15 AM
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 429 Washington
skrews
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 429
Washington
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What's your testing method? As in, the configuration of the carb fixture, flow bench type, flow test depression, testing with all 4 venturi open vs only one or two "active", etc.
Also, what is the combination on which you're going to run the 1.45 v carb and current ET & MPH? Open spacer adapted to flang on flow bench. SF 1020 bench 20.4 inches of water Full throttle all 4 barrels open Duster 3350#, 904 5800ish converter, 4.56, 28x10.5 360 11.75, .528 252°@.050 108+5, heavily worked M1 single plane Aforementioned 1.375/1.687 carb 2" tapered spacer My ported 596 heads 2.02 / 1.6 flow 265 / 180 1.75 Hooker Super Comps Best pass 1.40 60ft 4.32 330 6.64 1/8 @ 101.3 8.74 1000ft 10.52 1/4 @ 126.3
Last edited by skrews; 08/02/18 03:16 AM.
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Re: Holley 750 vs 850 vs 950
[Re: skrews]
#2530392
08/02/18 10:29 AM
08/02/18 10:29 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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Nice setup. Do you use any type of entry to help direct the airflow into the carb? BTW, other than your 60-ft being a tad quicker, your time is virtually identical to my best from my last passes before I pulled the engine. Are you going to back-to-back your 750 with the 1.45v carb?
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Re: Holley 750 vs 850 vs 950
[Re: skrews]
#2530441
08/02/18 12:47 PM
08/02/18 12:47 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,496 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,496
So. Burlington, Vt.
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Just to throw something in the mix that somewhat contradicts the “bigger is better” theme.....
The biggest was still the best, but just barely.
3 carbs, all tested at the track on the same day, back to back, no other changes. -built from scratch ProForm HP750, 4779 metering blocks, std Holley baseplate -built from scratch Holley HP950, Holley HP metering blocks, Braswell stepped boosters, baseplate with thinned shafts -CFS modified 4781 with annular boosters and thinned shafts
All ran within a few hundredths ET and 1MPH....... running 11.40’s with my 383.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Holley 750 vs 850 vs 950
[Re: BradH]
#2530479
08/02/18 02:04 PM
08/02/18 02:04 PM
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 429 Washington
skrews
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 429
Washington
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Nice setup. Do you use any type of entry to help direct the airflow into the carb? BTW, other than your 60-ft being a tad quicker, your time is virtually identical to my best from my last passes before I pulled the engine. Are you going to back-to-back your 750 with the 1.45v carb? I tried a low profile air bell that somewhat mimics my air cleaner, it picked up a few cfm. Probably just going to run the 1.45 carb as I probably won't get a lot of hits, and I'm trying to iron out its unstable fuel curve. Modified a set of scrap metering blocks thinking it might actually want more emulsion not less. We shall see LOL.
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Re: Holley 750 vs 850 vs 950
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2530490
08/02/18 02:22 PM
08/02/18 02:22 PM
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,317 State of confusion
Thumperdart
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,317
State of confusion
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Just to throw something in the mix that somewhat contradicts the “bigger is better” theme.....
The biggest was still the best, but just barely.
3 carbs, all tested at the track on the same day, back to back, no other changes. -built from scratch ProForm HP750, 4779 metering blocks, std Holley baseplate -built from scratch Holley HP950, Holley HP metering blocks, Braswell stepped boosters, baseplate with thinned shafts -CFS modified 4781 with annular boosters and thinned shafts
All ran within a few hundredths ET and 1MPH....... running 11.40’s with my 383. In my testing on my junk and at LEAST 180+ carbs for customers thus far, most of the time myself or my customers set a new best and run cleaner and faster. Not because of "theory" or Hot Rod magazine said so but actual facts like above in fast's testing. FACT; The more power you make, the more air flow needed to get the best performance out of the combo ESPECIALLY if the size or tune was off on the previously tested carb. What I see more than anything though is not just the carbs being too big or small but the actual calibration within the carbs are off for the cfm and intended application and the over emulsified, too big of high speed bleeds to compensate just kill em and make them APPEAR to be wrong and when tuned properly, the car/truck or whatever runs and drives much better. I've put more "Too big" Dommy's on more stuff than I can remember and every single one is happier and faster than before even small blocks are getting reported 12+ mpg's with the baddest carb ever, the all mighty DOMINATOR..............One example; a basic but cammed up .030 454 Chevy in a flat bottom boat that had two 3-circuit 1050's running a blubbery as usual 120+ on the water then after my usual 2 circuit conversion, he goes 130+ and the plugs lasted all season and he's beyond happy so it's not just about will this or that cfm be right for your combo it's about a properly calibrated carb or carbs.............
72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
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Re: Holley 750 vs 850 vs 950
[Re: Thumperdart]
#2530639
08/02/18 08:29 PM
08/02/18 08:29 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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Just to throw something in the mix that somewhat contradicts the “bigger is better” theme..... In my testing on my junk and at LEAST 180+ carbs for customers thus far... I think there's that balancing act between raw airflow, booster signal, fuel atomization, and whatever other variable you wanna throw into the mix. When I listed out all my carbs on a recent SpeedTalk post and asked peoples' thoughts on which one(s) seemed to be the best match for my combination & the most worthwhile putting my effort into getting the tune right, I remember that Mike Laws said he thought a couple of my smaller 4150 carbs (up to the 1.50" venturi) would do better overall than my big 4150s (1.58"+ venturi), but that a small 4500 (assuming he meant 1050-ish) would also be a good choice if I didn't already have so much $$$ tied up in 4150s. I think that he, like some other carb folks I'm aware of, isn't a fan of a 4150 with a venturi that exceeds some particular ratio of venturi-to-throttle bore size. These guys talk about keeping that ratio in check and gaining flow capability by scaling up to a 4500 architecture, rather than carving a bigger venturi into a traditional 4150 and jacking up the venturi-to-throttle bore ratio. At some point I suppose you're left having to use annular boosters to get back some of the lost signal, but then you've just blocked up some of that big(ger) venturi w/ the annular booster and lowered your peak flow capacity. Oh, there's that balancing act thing, again. I'd love to try ALL of the options... but then I'd end up with even more carbs that I'd need to sell than I do already.
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Re: Holley 750 vs 850 vs 950
[Re: BradH]
#2530816
08/03/18 03:13 AM
08/03/18 03:13 AM
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 429 Washington
skrews
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 429
Washington
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Probably just going to run the 1.45 carb as I probably won't get a lot of hits, and I'm trying to iron out its unstable fuel curve. Modified a set of scrap metering blocks thinking it might actually want more emulsion not less. We shall see LOL. I'm interested in hearing how you've set up the carb, and what you're seeing w/ the fuel curve issues you mentioned. I made a few shake down runs at the local 1/8 mile track and the wide band skipped around by 3/4 of a point or so. My 1.375/1.68 carb was very steady,and the 1.375/1.75 carb was pretty behaved too. All these carbs have 3310 primary blocks with 2 .027 e holes and 26 to 28 HSAB. Despite the 1.45 carb's erratic fuel curve, it still managed to tie the best ET and generate the best MPH at the local 1/8 track in worse air. I added a third .027 e hole to a set of scrap 3310 blocks, and will also try bumping up to the supplied .032 HSAB and see what happens at the 1/4 mile track Friday.
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