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Re: shaft mounted aluminum rocker arms side play [Re: 1mean340] #2481651
04/12/18 02:37 PM
04/12/18 02:37 PM
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madscientist Offline
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Your engine builder is WRONG and the geometry isn't correct. Is it good enough? Maybe. Is it correct? Nope.


Why push it? You've spent all the time and money. Fix the geometry. If the engine builder thinks half assed geometry is good enough, I'd be finding a new engine builder.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: shaft mounted aluminum rocker arms side play [Re: 1mean340] #2481652
04/12/18 02:37 PM
04/12/18 02:37 PM
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Suffolk County, New York
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1mean340 Offline OP
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If you click on them, you can zoom in from the Flikr page.

Re: shaft mounted aluminum rocker arms side play [Re: 1mean340] #2481655
04/12/18 02:41 PM
04/12/18 02:41 PM
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krautrock Offline
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do we need to see the wipe pattern to determine if the geometry is correct?

Re: shaft mounted aluminum rocker arms side play [Re: madscientist] #2481660
04/12/18 02:46 PM
04/12/18 02:46 PM
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1mean340 Offline OP
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Originally Posted By madscientist
Your engine builder is WRONG and the geometry isn't correct. Is it good enough? Maybe. Is it correct? Nope.


Why push it? You've spent all the time and money. Fix the geometry. If the engine builder thinks half assed geometry is good enough, I'd be finding a new engine builder.


He definitely didn't say it was correct, but didn't seem worried about it having problems for my setup knowing that I was trying to make this all work on a tight budget. Not arguing with you, just specifying what he said. I spent way more on this engine than I ever planned to, not that I expect a good build to be cheap...but this was a terrible foundation in the first place to do what I wanted to do with it. I was mainly just throwing it together to have fun with using parts I had lying around or bought second hand for cheap and I was just planning on running it until I can get my other LSX powered project car finished. After that, I was hoping to do a gen 3 hemi in this car or a 5.3 LM7 I've been using for mockup in my LSX car. Most of my friends are making more power with their junkyard 5.3's than I'd ever be confident pushing through this LA block.

I'm listening though, and taking everything I am hearing into consideration. What would be involved with fixing the geometry? Not really sure how I'd go about doing that, as of now there is no interference with any parts, but it looks like if those pushrods straightened out even a little bit more then the heads would have to be clearanced. That's just not going to happen. I'd most likely try to sell the LA stuff off and start over with a late model, it would save me a lot of headaches in other ways as well as I'm still dealing with major FITECH tuning issues on E85 and blower belt alignment/tension issues on the procharger bracket I built. If there is something I can do that would be fairly easy/cheap, then I'll do it.

Last edited by 1mean340; 04/12/18 02:56 PM.
Re: shaft mounted aluminum rocker arms side play [Re: 1mean340] #2481670
04/12/18 03:05 PM
04/12/18 03:05 PM
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Fulton County, PA
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The angle of the intake pushrod is going to load the intake rocker towards the exhaust rocker. On my W2s, I used Crane rockers with aluminum blocks from Arrow or someone. Shims were used to adjust play, center the roller on the valve and also as thrust washers. Initial set-up, without pushrods, starts at the center and works out, keeping in mind the intakes rockers are being pushed toward the exhausts. I kept my clearance snug. As long as no parts are replaced, this should only need to be done initially. Beyond that, just verify clearances and alignment, and adjust the blocks when installing to maintain that when putting it back together.

That's how I figured out how to do it. Ran them for years to 7200+, with the oil restricted to the heads, and never had an issue.


If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
Re: shaft mounted aluminum rocker arms side play [Re: 1mean340] #2481711
04/12/18 04:25 PM
04/12/18 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted By 1mean340
Originally Posted By madscientist
Your engine builder is WRONG and the geometry isn't correct. Is it good enough? Maybe. Is it correct? Nope.


Why push it? You've spent all the time and money. Fix the geometry. If the engine builder thinks half assed geometry is good enough, I'd be finding a new engine builder.


He definitely didn't say it was correct, but didn't seem worried about it having problems for my setup knowing that I was trying to make this all work on a tight budget. Not arguing with you, just specifying what he said. I spent way more on this engine than I ever planned to, not that I expect a good build to be cheap...but this was a terrible foundation in the first place to do what I wanted to do with it. I was mainly just throwing it together to have fun with using parts I had lying around or bought second hand for cheap and I was just planning on running it until I can get my other LSX powered project car finished. After that, I was hoping to do a gen 3 hemi in this car or a 5.3 LM7 I've been using for mockup in my LSX car. Most of my friends are making more power with their junkyard 5.3's than I'd ever be confident pushing through this LA block.

I'm listening though, and taking everything I am hearing into consideration. What would be involved with fixing the geometry? Not really sure how I'd go about doing that, as of now there is no interference with any parts, but it looks like if those pushrods straightened out even a little bit more then the heads would have to be clearanced. That's just not going to happen. I'd most likely try to sell the LA stuff off and start over with a late model, it would save me a lot of headaches in other ways as well as I'm still dealing with major FITECH tuning issues on E85 and blower belt alignment/tension issues on the procharger bracket I built. If there is something I can do that would be fairly easy/cheap, then I'll do it.



I get the budget. I've also been doing this a long time, and it makes me sick when a guy says it's good enough when the fix is so simple. Before the B3 system the only alternative was to mill the stands and use offset stands and blocks. Most guys just lived with what they had because they didn't want to spend the money.


Mikes system is so simple even I can measure for it and use it. The worst part of the job is grinding out the bolt holes in the shaft so you can move it back. IIRC Mike will do it, but you have to pay. Most guys with a die grinder can do it rather easily.


You are too close not to fix it now. Why should the Chrysler guys deal with [censored] geometry? The GM won't do it. Why should we?

Most guys think centering the sweep is correct. It's not. You want the sweep as narrow as possible.


I remember when Indy came out with their heads and they had cupped stands. I remembering calling them and asking them how in the hell am I going to correct the geometry without a bunch of milling and fabrication? Their exact answer was, and I've never forgotten this, was; if you change the geometry on our heads you are too dumb to own them.


To this day, I have never bought a part from them. I've worked on their stuff, but I won't buy it.


Take your time. Learn as much about rocker geometry as you can. And then fix yours. It's really quite simple now. And worth the effort.

Last edited by madscientist; 04/12/18 04:29 PM.

Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: shaft mounted aluminum rocker arms side play [Re: krautrock] #2481712
04/12/18 04:26 PM
04/12/18 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted By krautrock
do we need to see the wipe pattern to determine if the geometry is correct?



I don't. Haven't seen one that was correct yet without fixing it.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: shaft mounted aluminum rocker arms side play [Re: 1mean340] #2482170
04/13/18 02:20 PM
04/13/18 02:20 PM
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Suffolk County, New York
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1mean340 Offline OP
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Mad, thanks for your input. I contacted Mike at B3 and he asked me to take several measurements which I will today and then send them back to him so he can let me know how badly the geometry is out.

I will most likely be fixing it pending what mike says about the geometry/kit I am probably going to fire it up today just to see if I can straighten out the FITECH tuning issues, I figure a few hours of run time hopefully won't hurt anything with that geometry (it already ran about 500 miles like that).

Didn't mean to seem resistant to changing it, truth is this car still has a ton to be sorted out with spitting blower belts at WOT and unable to go more than half throttle without falling flat because of the FITECH dumping fuel. If everything ran good, I'd be happy to fix it, but it sucks putting more time and money into the valvetrain when I don't know how much it's going to take to fix the other issues and make a clean pass.

Truth be told, I am strongly thinking about a Hellcat swap. I didn't originally because at the time of starting this the crate engine was still in the 20k price range and a stand alone harness wasn't offered, but now it's all out there. It's what I always wanted to do with the car, could support the power I was hoping to make and won't be a time bomb like a factory LA block making it. I might as well fix this though, as even if I sell it, I'd feel better if it were correct. Hellcat would involve me selling off the parts I have for my other project car but that car's a chevy so it seems totally worth it haha

Re: shaft mounted aluminum rocker arms side play [Re: 1mean340] #2482176
04/13/18 02:22 PM
04/13/18 02:22 PM
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1mean340 Offline OP
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CMcallister, thanks for the tip! that's pretty much what I did when I shimmed them before, and they are all within about 8-10 thousandths now, no more crazy side to side slop. Setting lash was way easier.

Re: shaft mounted aluminum rocker arms side play [Re: 1mean340] #2482192
04/13/18 02:59 PM
04/13/18 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted By 1mean340
Mad, thanks for your input. I contacted Mike at B3 and he asked me to take several measurements which I will today and then send them back to him so he can let me know how badly the geometry is out.

I will most likely be fixing it pending what mike says about the geometry/kit I am probably going to fire it up today just to see if I can straighten out the FITECH tuning issues, I figure a few hours of run time hopefully won't hurt anything with that geometry (it already ran about 500 miles like that).

Didn't mean to seem resistant to changing it, truth is this car still has a ton to be sorted out with spitting blower belts at WOT and unable to go more than half throttle without falling flat because of the FITECH dumping fuel. If everything ran good, I'd be happy to fix it, but it sucks putting more time and money into the valvetrain when I don't know how much it's going to take to fix the other issues and make a clean pass.

Truth be told, I am strongly thinking about a Hellcat swap. I didn't originally because at the time of starting this the crate engine was still in the 20k price range and a stand alone harness wasn't offered, but now it's all out there. It's what I always wanted to do with the car, could support the power I was hoping to make and won't be a time bomb like a factory LA block making it. I might as well fix this though, as even if I sell it, I'd feel better if it were correct. Hellcat would involve me selling off the parts I have for my other project car but that car's a chevy so it seems totally worth it haha




Glad you are working on it. Would you mind posting how far off your geometry is, so that others may see what it is? It would maybe help someone to understand geometry better.

If you keep it long enough, I think you'll find the valve lash will not move nearly as much, springs and your valve job will last longer and believe it or not, the valve train will make a bit more noise. So don't worry if your valve train sounds a bit noisy.

Keep us posted please!!!!


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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