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#2443145 - 01/29/18 09:14 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: MagnumExpress]
gsmopar Offline
super stock

Registered: 07/27/04
Posts: 826
Loc: Arizona, USA
What did the machine work cost to make the girdle work. Just curious about the price difference between BRC and an aftermarket block.
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#2447059 - 02/05/18 05:58 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: gsmopar]
dogdays Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 15950
I like to learn things from different sources. I posted this a couple of years ago but feel like repeating myself. Mu Taurus SHO engine uses a block designed by Yamaha because the stock Ford Vulcan 3.0 block couldn't handle the power the Yamaha heads were making. Yamaha makes some pretty good engines. Their block uses a girdle that ties all four main bearing caps together. The girdle bolts to each main cap with two capscrews. The windage tray bolts to the girdle with other bolts.

This compact block purpose built by Yamaha is a very high quality casting and is plenty beefy yet the designers used a girdle to tie all the main bearings and webs together. By comparison the B/RB engine is less compact and less rigid. Why wouldn't it also benefit from tying the main caps and webs together? Picture of the girdle and windage tray attached.

R.


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#2447089 - 02/05/18 07:03 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: dogdays]
maximum entropy Offline
master

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 5074
Loc: organ
i'll play!!
having used all three girdles in question, YES! they absolutely DO help. imho, they help in different ways, but they are a simple, reliable way of significantly improving bottom end integrity. the bcr girdle is a LOT of work to install. line hone is an absolute necessity with this girdle, as is some other machine work that may not be available in some areas. the chenoweth (sp) and 440source girdles are much easier to install, and typically do not require any machine work.
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#2447180 - 02/05/18 09:10 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: dogdays]
rednuck Online   rolleyes
super stock

Registered: 02/28/13
Posts: 756
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By dogdays
I like to learn things from different sources. I posted this a couple of years ago but feel like repeating myself. Mu Taurus SHO engine uses a block designed by Yamaha because the stock Ford Vulcan 3.0 block couldn't handle the power the Yamaha heads were making. Yamaha makes some pretty good engines. Their block uses a girdle that ties all four main bearing caps together. The girdle bolts to each main cap with two capscrews. The windage tray bolts to the girdle with other bolts.

This compact block purpose built by Yamaha is a very high quality casting and is plenty beefy yet the designers used a girdle to tie all the main bearings and webs together. By comparison the B/RB engine is less compact and less rigid. Why wouldn't it also benefit from tying the main caps and webs together? Picture of the girdle and windage tray attached.

R.


it seems like a popular addition to 4 cylinders, here are some pictures of a Mitsubishi 2.3l (4G63).
The main caps are cast together, forming what I believe they call a cradle. There has to be at least some truth to the practice, would be interesting to see one of these for a BB mopar but it would be some crazy $$$$




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#2447310 - 02/06/18 08:06 AM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: rednuck]
Jerry Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 6740
Loc: Warren, MI
that's pretty much how our girdle works. the girdle sits flush with the bottom of the caps. even our stock replacement caps are made taller to make sure that if you add a girdle later, you're not relying on just the bolts or main studs to hold it down. this extra interface is where the strength comes from just like these factory made cradles. girdle kits are on sale right now for $699.00
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#2447803 - 02/06/18 09:46 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: MagnumExpress]
Superfreak Offline
master

Registered: 11/08/08
Posts: 3520
Loc: the great white north
I have a BCR girdle on my RB 493, very nice piece. Bought it from the original guy that started making the kits as he lived not too far from me and he also led me to moparts and for the life of me I can't remember his name.
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#2448030 - 02/07/18 12:12 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: gsmopar]
451Mopar Offline
master

Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 4865
Loc: Aurora, Colorado
Originally Posted By gsmopar
What did the machine work cost to make the girdle work. Just curious about the price difference between BRC and an aftermarket block.


The BCR kit is really nice if your in the 700+ HP range, but the cost of machining can add up.
You need to find a machine shop that can align bore and hone the new aluminum caps to the block. My regular machine shop does not have the machine to align bore the mains, just hone them and when I called other shops I got several different prices. Then the bottom of the block (pan rails and top of caps) is cut flush too. Been awhile since I did mine, but I'd guess around $500-600 on the low end for machining, and $800+ at the higher end of the quotes I was getting. I paid in the low range, but that was one of those deals where a small machine shop outsourced the work to another shop with the equipment to get a better price.
On my engine, I used the Milodon low profile pan and had no clearance issues with the K-member or steering linkage.

On my 600 HP 440 stroker I am looking at the 440 source girdle because I want the extra 1/4" spacing for the Jegs 4.15" plastic windage tray.

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#2448078 - 02/07/18 01:50 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: 451Mopar]
dogdays Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 15950
I believe the girdle does much the same thing as crossbolting the mains. I don't think most people can imagine how much the crank is bending with its various loads.

R.

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#2448082 - 02/07/18 02:07 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: MagnumExpress]
Jerry Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 6740
Loc: Warren, MI
Cross bolting a block that's not meant to be cross bolted is asking for trouble. also with the cross bolts, your adding clamping on the farthest point away from the crank. yes its better than nothing but not ideal.

the girdle adds clamping right on top of the main caps.

in terms of additional cost, whether you use steel caps or aluminum caps or even cast iron caps from another engine you will always need to line bore the block. all aftermarket caps are made undersize to ensure this happens. the only additional feature the bcr girdle needs is a flat oil pan rail, in most cases when guys mock them up, they don't need more than a few thousandths taken off to make sure everything is flat. this should only costs between $100-200 more at the machine shop. still a long long way away from the cost of an aftermarket block.
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#2448188 - 02/07/18 05:57 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: Jerry]
RalleyA12 Offline


Registered: 04/01/04
Posts: 488
Loc: Marilla, New York
Jerry, Do you install the caps/girdle yourself at your shop ?

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#2448602 - 02/08/18 02:15 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: MagnumExpress]
Jerry Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 6740
Loc: Warren, MI
we have installed them for some people in the past, but don't normally. we aren't an engine building machine shop.
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#2448627 - 02/08/18 03:10 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: A39Coronet]
BradH Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 13522
Loc: Valhalla... eventually
Originally Posted By A39Coronet
...

Thickness has no bearing on the effect of the girdle, as it's intention is to eliminate "flag-pole" esk wiggle of the main studs, which attribute to cap walk and reverberation through the block eventually leading to cracks. It is NOT designed to influence lateral twisting of the block itself.

You're the only other person I know who has ever put it that way, and it's EXACTLY why I decided to use my CRE girdle w/ my fresh 440 block that was already fitted w/ aluminum caps.

The aluminum caps will still act as a "shock absorber", but the girdle should help keep the caps from doing The Wave. I suspect the studs getting moved around when not supported at the top is one of the things that causes that style of cap to crack when used only with main studs.

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#2448655 - 02/08/18 04:28 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: MagnumExpress]
Clanton Offline
master

Registered: 05/15/11
Posts: 3267
Loc: northern,Ohio,USA
I wanted to dowl pin my stock iron caps when I used the Chenoweth 3/4" girdle but I didn't have the cash and this may be an option for some people.
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