6 pack metering block question
#2447615
02/06/18 08:59 PM
02/06/18 08:59 PM
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mickm
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So the idle on my car is at 15:1 AFR, and the screws are 2 1/2 - 2 /34 of the way out. I have the metering block over at a long time Holley guys shop, and he was going to enlarge the passages by .003, but they are not where they usually are on these metering blocks. To get to the passages, is it through the brass plugs on the bottom of the block? And if so, it looks like those are not going to come out easily. Where do I get replacements?
And is this what I need to do to be able to richen it up at idle, and have the screws in a reasonable place?
Last edited by mickm; 02/06/18 09:00 PM.
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Re: 6 pack metering block question
[Re: mickm]
#2447639
02/06/18 09:34 PM
02/06/18 09:34 PM
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Lee446
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Mick, have you tried adjusting the mixture screws in the baseplates of the end carbs? Backing them out maybe 1/8 turn each will make a big difference and take some of the load off your center carb. I have set up more than a few 6 paks and even with big cams, I've never had to open idle passages in the center carb. Good luck!
Last edited by Lee446; 02/06/18 09:37 PM.
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Re: 6 pack metering block question
[Re: Lee446]
#2447694
02/06/18 10:22 PM
02/06/18 10:22 PM
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PurpleBeeper
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Mick, have you tried adjusting the mixture screws in the baseplates of the end carbs? Backing them out maybe 1/8 turn each will make a big difference and take some of the load off your center carb. I have set up more than a few 6 paks and even with big cams, I've never had to open idle passages in the center carb. Good luck! VERY good advice. Also, I am not aware of any metering block idle mixture passages under the metering block behind plugs??? There are main circuit passages behind the power valve at 3 o'clock & 9 o'clock that can be enlarged per the old Direct Connection book, but I don't recommend doing it. There are also some holes up in the top corners (name?) that can be enlarged too, but again I don't recommend it. I know you have that big stroker hemi six pack, so maybe consider Promax parts instead of modifying stock pieces. You can get adjustable metering bodies & adjustable metering plates.... but try the outboard idles screws first like Lee says. THOSE are behind lead plugs on the front of the baseplates for the outer carburetors. Hope this helps.
Last edited by PurpleBeeper; 02/06/18 10:23 PM.
70 Roadrunner convt. street car
440+6, NOS, 4-spd, SS springs
'96 Mustang GT convt. street car
'04 4.6 SOHC, NOS, auto, lowered
"Officer, that button is for short on-ramps"
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Re: 6 pack metering block question
[Re: Sixpak]
#2447727
02/06/18 11:11 PM
02/06/18 11:11 PM
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mickm
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Mick, have you tried adjusting the mixture screws in the baseplates of the end carbs? Backing them out maybe 1/8 turn each will make a big difference and take some of the load off your center carb. I have set up more than a few 6 paks and even with big cams, I've never had to open idle passages in the center carb. Good luck! Best idle on a small block Sixpak setup with an XE268 cam ended up with the mixture screws on all 3 carbs out 1 5/8 turns. Covering the corresponding air bleed one at a time will tell you which direction to go with the mixture screw. Never had to drill anything. I have done that following the writeup from Dayclona, and have the end carbs, as far as I can tell, adjusted properly, in that when I cover the air bleeds one at at time, there is no change in the idle. There was when I first put the carbs on, so I know there was a change.
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Re: 6 pack metering block question
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2447775
02/07/18 12:04 AM
02/07/18 12:04 AM
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mickm
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So the idle on my car is at 15:1 AFR, and the screws are 2 1/2 - 2 /34 of the way out. What is wrong with that I like to see above 14.5 AFR at idle when warm or hot to help keep the plugs clean My old pump gas Duster 6 pack set up ran at or above 15.2 AFR at idle and low part throttle high manifold vacumme cruise up to 2300 RPM That rascal flat rocked Damn good question! It started with me asking a couple of very experienced engine builders why my car stinks so bad at idle. I thought running rich would make it stink, an they both said, "because it's running too lean." So, in an attempt to richen it up to see where that would get me, and knowing that for a Holley, almost 3 turns out on the idle screws is not optimal, I was attempting to get the idle screws to a more normal position, to give a range of control over the mixture.
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Re: 6 pack metering block question
[Re: mickm]
#2447970
02/07/18 12:47 PM
02/07/18 12:47 PM
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jbc426
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[/quote]
Damn good question! It started with me asking a couple of very experienced engine builders why my car stinks so bad at idle. I thought running rich would make it stink, an they both said, "because it's running too lean." [/quote]
My EFI car smelled bad at idle as well. It has a pretty healthy roller cam in it. That was with an oxygen sensor feeding back to the ECM.
I welded a pair of metal matrix, racing catalytic converters on it and the problem was solved. It didn't affect the power output either.
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's 1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
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Re: 6 pack metering block question
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2448067
02/07/18 04:23 PM
02/07/18 04:23 PM
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Joined: Jul 2011
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PurpleBeeper
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To see if enrichening helps the idle air fuel ratio helps you gain better control of the idle mixture try using some very thin wires formed like a J stuck upside down into all six idle air bleeds Let us know your results This is an interesting idea!
70 Roadrunner convt. street car
440+6, NOS, 4-spd, SS springs
'96 Mustang GT convt. street car
'04 4.6 SOHC, NOS, auto, lowered
"Officer, that button is for short on-ramps"
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Re: 6 pack metering block question
[Re: mickm]
#2448068
02/07/18 04:27 PM
02/07/18 04:27 PM
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Joined: Jul 2011
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PurpleBeeper
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WOW! GREAT thing you called Holley.... good job.
70 Roadrunner convt. street car
440+6, NOS, 4-spd, SS springs
'96 Mustang GT convt. street car
'04 4.6 SOHC, NOS, auto, lowered
"Officer, that button is for short on-ramps"
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Re: 6 pack metering block question
[Re: mickm]
#2448150
02/07/18 07:22 PM
02/07/18 07:22 PM
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A727Tflite
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The stench from burning lean doesn't smell anywhere near the same as burning rich.
Burning rich burns your eyes where lean just stinks - it even smells hot - has a "burning" smell but doesn't burn your eyes. At least the ones I have been involved on.
Last edited by Transman; 02/07/18 07:22 PM.
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Re: 6 pack metering block question
[Re: mickm]
#2448332
02/08/18 02:42 AM
02/08/18 02:42 AM
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screamindriver
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Well, here's a fun one!
I just got a call from Holley, and apparently some of these metering blocks are making it down the line, WITHOUT the idle restrictor passage being drilled out! And mine is one of them...
So, they are sending me a new metering block, and I'll take it from there.
Sigh... So much for Holley quality control...You wouldn't think something like this would ever leave the factory...
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Re: 6 pack metering block question
[Re: krautrock]
#2448510
02/08/18 02:30 PM
02/08/18 02:30 PM
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mickm
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when were the carbs originally bought? bought new, last year or two.
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Re: 6 pack metering block question
[Re: A727Tflite]
#2448599
02/08/18 05:13 PM
02/08/18 05:13 PM
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mickm
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The stench from burning lean doesn't smell anywhere near the same as burning rich.
Burning rich burns your eyes where lean just stinks - it even smells hot - has a "burning" smell but doesn't burn your eyes. At least the ones I have been involved on. your lean description is what mine is like...
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Re: 6 pack metering block question
[Re: mickm]
#2448713
02/08/18 09:18 PM
02/08/18 09:18 PM
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A727Tflite
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Hope you get it resolved. For me, I have to tell you that you are the first guy that I have heard that has a lean six pack. Most everyone I have heard of or seen has always been stink rich. That lean stench smell I describe - I usually smell it behind old school buses. Why - don't know.
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Re: 6 pack metering block question
[Re: A727Tflite]
#2449167
02/09/18 06:10 PM
02/09/18 06:10 PM
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mickm
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Hope you get it resolved. For me, I have to tell you that you are the first guy that I have heard that has a lean six pack. Most everyone I have heard of or seen has always been stink rich. That lean stench smell I describe - I usually smell it behind old school buses. Why - don't know. Well remember, it's lean because they didn't drill out the idle restrictor passages! I'll see what happens when I get a correct metering block in there. With 2 1/2 turns out to get a 15:1 idle, I assume with a properly working metering block I should be able to now set it where I want.
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Re: 6 pack metering block question
[Re: 70sixpkrt]
#2451088
02/13/18 05:01 AM
02/13/18 05:01 AM
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mickm
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I would go for that, expect I want to keep the stock look. I know I'm leaving a lot of horsepower on the table by a) having the six pack in the first place, and b) not setting it up optimally, but it's the novelty I'm going for. Once I miss the extra horsepower of my 2X4 setup, (and I do already, just not enough yet), I'll go back to that. But for now, it's just cool having an air cleaner that reads... "HEMI Six Barrel"
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Re: 6 pack metering block question
[Re: mickm]
#2451095
02/13/18 08:19 AM
02/13/18 08:19 AM
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ThermoQuad
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Are you going to set up the carbs properly or just wing it and then ask questions? Did you know that Tom Hoover spoke very highly of a six pak on a hemi as the fuel distribution was wayyyy much better than the 2x4 set up? I thinks it's humorous with all the talk that a few ponies were left on the table with the +6 vs 2-4s or a big fat 4bbl when a drag race would confirm that six paks rule!.
Last edited by Dilbert; 02/13/18 08:23 AM.
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Re: 6 pack metering block question
[Re: mickm]
#2451194
02/13/18 02:26 PM
02/13/18 02:26 PM
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70sixpkrt
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I would go for that, expect I want to keep the stock look. I know I'm leaving a lot of horsepower on the table by a) having the six pack in the first place, and b) not setting it up optimally, but it's the novelty I'm going for. Once I miss the extra horsepower of my 2X4 setup, (and I do already, just not enough yet), I'll go back to that. But for now, it's just cool having an air cleaner that reads... "HEMI Six Barrel" You don't see the metering block with the air cleaner on.
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Re: 6 pack metering block question
[Re: ThermoQuad]
#2451220
02/13/18 03:31 PM
02/13/18 03:31 PM
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mickm
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Are you going to set up the carbs properly or just wing it and then ask questions? Did you know that Tom Hoover spoke very highly of a six pak on a hemi as the fuel distribution was wayyyy much better than the 2x4 set up? I thinks it's humorous with all the talk that a few ponies were left on the table with the +6 vs 2-4s or a big fat 4bbl when a drag race would confirm that six paks rule!. No, I did my research first, installed them following some specific instructions I got here on the board, and now am asking questions for the small issues I'm having problems with. That was one of the reasons I did it, was talking to Tom Hoover about it a few years ago at MATS. But first of all, that was a 426 he was talking about, not a 540. Then there is the fact that at 4bbl ratings, the six pack flows 935 cfm, where the two Edelbrocks I have flow 1300. Then there is the dual plane design of the 6 pak manifold as compared to the single plane Stage V dual 4 I use, which dyno'd by FHO produced 40 more HP than a stock manifold. And yes, setting up a set of drag 6 pak carbs with all 500 CFM carbs may put it back in the range of a single or two 4's, but probably not with that manifold. So this really is in no way and apples to apples comparison. So yes, it is down on power, and would lose miserably on the track to my other setup.
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Re: 6 pack metering block question
[Re: mickm]
#2451762
02/14/18 06:37 PM
02/14/18 06:37 PM
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mickm
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Ok, the conclusion to all this. Got the new metering block from Holley, same result. Probably my fault, but I reminded them, (may not have told them in the first place, thought I did), that I'm dealing with a 540, and they said, Oh, in that case there is nothing we can do for you. This is designed for a 440, and will supply it well, but we can't do or say anything about a larger displacement engine.
Called ProMax, and they said "Yep, that is what our metering blocks are designed for." He also said the six pack metering block is an odd duck, in that it doesn't have an idle restrictor passage in the usual place, which started all this.
So I live with it, or get a Promax block, as Ricky suggested.
All I wanted to do was clean up a stinky idle. I'll live with it for now...
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Re: 6 pack metering block question
[Re: mickm]
#2451808
02/14/18 08:04 PM
02/14/18 08:04 PM
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krautrock
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how big is the cam and what is the LSA ? if it has alot of overlap you might be stuck with a stinky idle...
also you have three carb to adjust idle mix on?? can you richen the outboard carbs up a bit and get the center carb a little more in line with traditional settings??
Last edited by krautrock; 02/14/18 08:05 PM.
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Re: 6 pack metering block question
[Re: mickm]
#2451836
02/14/18 08:57 PM
02/14/18 08:57 PM
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70sixpkrt
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I would go for that, expect I want to keep the stock look. I know I'm leaving a lot of horsepower on the table by a) having the six pack in the first place, and b) not setting it up optimally, but it's the novelty I'm going for. Once I miss the extra horsepower of my 2X4 setup, (and I do already, just not enough yet), I'll go back to that. But for now, it's just cool having an air cleaner that reads... "HEMI Six Barrel" Mick if decide to pull the Sixpack off, let me know.
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Re: 6 pack metering block question
[Re: 70sixpkrt]
#2451864
02/14/18 10:02 PM
02/14/18 10:02 PM
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mickm
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I would go for that, expect I want to keep the stock look. I know I'm leaving a lot of horsepower on the table by a) having the six pack in the first place, and b) not setting it up optimally, but it's the novelty I'm going for. Once I miss the extra horsepower of my 2X4 setup, (and I do already, just not enough yet), I'll go back to that. But for now, it's just cool having an air cleaner that reads... "HEMI Six Barrel" Mick if decide to pull the Sixpack off, let me know. I'll swap manifolds one of these days, but will keep the six pak setup. No sense in getting rid of it, it's a fun novelty! But I will let you know.
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Re: 6 pack metering block question
[Re: 62maxwgn]
#2451896
02/14/18 11:05 PM
02/14/18 11:05 PM
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mickm
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If you hate the stinky smell switch to 101 low lead AV gas,you'll love it then !! Is that a sarcastic "you'll love it"? Besides with what I imagine to be $7-10 / gallon prices, I'm not sure about that!
Last edited by mickm; 02/14/18 11:06 PM.
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Re: 6 pack metering block question
[Re: mickm]
#2451928
02/15/18 12:11 AM
02/15/18 12:11 AM
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BSB67
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I have it farther down, in the 14+ range, just turns the screws farther out.
I'm just going to live with it. There are other things that need attention, this is just more of a nuisance than anything else.
I didn't expect it to take this much time and energy, but since it is what it is and doesn't harm anything, it's good enough. If you have a large overlap cam you should be focusing on idle quality, not what an O2 meter is reading. It simply does not read right. If the O2 meter is reading 15:1 the the combustion charge AF ratio could still be far too rich. Some have reported as high as 18:1 meter reading at best idle quality w a big cam
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Re: 6 pack metering block question
[Re: 62maxwgn]
#2452006
02/15/18 03:46 AM
02/15/18 03:46 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
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Cab_Burge
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Not sarcasm,fact.All I've ever ran in my sixpack Superbird and wagon since 1992,airport is 10 mi over the mountain,$4.35 gal. Do you know about the Federal law restricting using leaded fuel of any type on any public U.S. roads, freeways or highways in all of the U.S.? If not be aware of it, it carries a $10,000 for the first offence I can tell you that every law enforcement agency in California that I've talk to or heard about are aware of it and they know the local courts get to keep all of the fine money from that citation I was warned by a San Bernardino County sheriff about that back n the 1990s when he saw one of my old race cars with current tags at the old LACR race track, he assumed I drove it on the street regularly, which I hadn't done in his presents at that time, he was a drag racer also The smell gives it away
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: 6 pack metering block question
[Re: BSB67]
#2452103
02/15/18 01:26 PM
02/15/18 01:26 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,560 Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick
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I have it farther down, in the 14+ range, just turns the screws farther out.
I'm just going to live with it. There are other things that need attention, this is just more of a nuisance than anything else.
I didn't expect it to take this much time and energy, but since it is what it is and doesn't harm anything, it's good enough. If you have a large overlap cam you should be focusing on idle quality, not what an O2 meter is reading. It simply does not read right. If the O2 meter is reading 15:1 the the combustion charge AF ratio could still be far too rich. Some have reported as high as 18:1 meter reading at best idle quality w a big cam Make it idle happy. The AFR will land where it lands. Every time it misfires, all the O2 that didn't get used for combustion goes out the exhaust and a big overlap cam misfires A LOT at idle. That's why an engine idling pig rich can indicate 18:1 dead lean. Kevin
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Re: 6 pack metering block question
[Re: Twostick]
#2452116
02/15/18 01:59 PM
02/15/18 01:59 PM
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jbc426
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My FAST portable wideband wouldn't even read my air-fuel ratio at idle. It's beyond it's range, because its too rich. I changed my cam and compression, and am a day or two away from seeing if it will read it with this one.
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's 1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
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Re: 6 pack metering block question
[Re: mickm]
#2452125
02/15/18 02:19 PM
02/15/18 02:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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krautrock
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Is everyone setting idle mix by adjusting to highest idle speed or vacuum reading?
after I threaded the IFR's in my metering blocks and dropped the IFR size down, I figured I would be close to the typical 1.5 turns out from seated so I set them up initially at 1.25 turns out. It started and idled OK, kinda bumpy, kinda stinky.
after it warmed up all the way I started leaning them out, idle goes up, smooths out. keep going around the carb, a tad leaner every time. Ended up at just a touch more than a half turn out.
I was thinking wth, after all this work these should be further out, then I figured well, I dropped the IFR down but the I didn't touch the idle bleeds and they are roughly .067", pretty small.
The idle smoothed out, smells much cleaner (still smells like it has some overlap), I had close the blades to drop the idle back down...it starts up with just a touch of the key when it's warmed up...I'm just gonna worry about other things now and leave the idle screws where the motor likes them.
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Re: 6 pack metering block question
[Re: Twostick]
#2452233
02/15/18 05:35 PM
02/15/18 05:35 PM
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mickm
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I have it farther down, in the 14+ range, just turns the screws farther out.
I'm just going to live with it. There are other things that need attention, this is just more of a nuisance than anything else.
I didn't expect it to take this much time and energy, but since it is what it is and doesn't harm anything, it's good enough. If you have a large overlap cam you should be focusing on idle quality, not what an O2 meter is reading. It simply does not read right. If the O2 meter is reading 15:1 the the combustion charge AF ratio could still be far too rich. Some have reported as high as 18:1 meter reading at best idle quality w a big cam Make it idle happy. The AFR will land where it lands. Every time it misfires, all the O2 that didn't get used for combustion goes out the exhaust and a big overlap cam misfires A LOT at idle. That's why an engine idling pig rich can indicate 18:1 dead lean. Kevin Yeah, got it. I usually do it with a vacuum gauge. Will start again there and see where it ends up.
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